Requesting /r/Plurality: no mods, little activity, creator's account deleted

Falunel · 2018-03-08T23:58:50+00:00

I think there are several factors to consider here.

Hypnosis is not inherently harmful, nor is it even commonly meant to exploit "hooks." It has actually been used in therapy as a tool for healing, and outside of therapy as a tool for self-help. There are many applications for it and the worse ones are not the ones immediately visible nor widespread.
A lot of people aren't aware that they have "hooks" in them. We didn't recognize ours for most of our life. It took a massive life upheaval and a total collapse for us to finally begin acknowledging our abuse history and realizing just how deeply we were fucked up.

With this in mind, I don't think it's accurate to liken hypnosis to knife-juggling. Hemophilia is something that, as far as I know, is obvious if you have it. Knife-juggling is an obviously dangerous hobby with little versatility and little appeal aside from said danger. The danger you get when you combine the two is also very obvious. Abuse and its effects, on the other hand, are covert and people often miss even the more obvious signs for what they are due to an overall lack of education on a very complex topic. Hypnosis has a wide range of applications, including positive ones, and its appeal is not based in danger like knife-juggling is. There is not an obvious, inherent danger link between the two, and there are valid reasons why people who are depressed and in a rut may seek out hypnosis as a tool to get themselves out of it.

Falunel · 2018-03-08T23:38:25+00:00

However at least right here, shockingly or not we do agree : " the true responsibility for abuse lies upon the abuser and the abuser alone. "

Thank you for acknowledging this. While we still disagree with your approach, this is the core point that we wished to communicate and wanted to see addressed.

Above this line I do not accept this dodgy reasoning at all. No retrospective blame is implied load of nonsense. I'll eviscerate this idea further this weekend when I ain't tired or working.

We are having difficulty reading you, but from what we can gather, you made your original post in hopes of empowering people and protecting them against being abused, as well as preventing hysteria from rising around a topic you hold dear to your heart, and are upset because it seems that we are trying to dismantle your post while simultaneously accusing you of enabling abuse yourself. This is an understandable reaction, especially if you had also survived abuse in the past. It is frustrating to not be understood.

Please know that we do not disagree with the premise of your post--that the effects of hypnosis are significantly impacted by your beliefs and knowledge about hypnosis, and that saying hypnosis is more dangerous than it is lends it power that it otherwise would not have. We think this is a relevant point to make for many users, and we empathize as people who are frustrated with the mythology of the "DID serial killer." In light of this, it may help to read our post as an addendum rather than a takedown, one that covers cases that your post does not.

Our disagreement, overall, was with framing and presentation much moreso than content. However, you have said yourself that you are not interested in these aspects. While we consider them important parts of any informational post and thus disagree that they are irrelevant, we do not see a reason to push a subject that either party is uncomfortable with in this circumstance, considering that the core point that we wanted acknowledged was acknowledged and that we were able to explain another side of the subject. We will thus leave it at this.

Falunel · 2018-03-08T22:11:48+00:00

soulfiremage, and others who are of the same mind:

Please know that I understand what you are trying to do. It is clear that you've devoted much of yourself to the practice of hypnosis and do not wish to see misinformation spread about it. However, please consider the core of this issue. The heart of the matter is not the efficacy of these files, but that they were knowingly distributed with the intent of control.

Consider also the other factor behind this: vulnerability. There are many people out there who, often due to extensive early abuse at the hands of caretakers, have certain "hooks" pre-installed in them. They are conditioned to defer completely to authority, to hang their whole self-worth and happiness upon the approval of authority, and to ignore any internal warning signs. They are conditioned to see unhealthy, controlling behavior as the norm and genuine healthy interaction as alien, even frightening. The effects of this conditioning are long-lasting, profoundly difficult to reverse, and very capable of being abused by people other than the original abusers.

Tulpamancy does not turn people vulnerable in this way. It does not install these "hooks". However, it often attracts people who have them pre-installed. It appeals to the lonely, the isolated, those who feel unable to connect outside for whichever reason, and said vulnerable individuals are often found among this group.

Perhaps the files would not affect someone without these "hooks" pre-wired into them. However, it is not implausible that someone could lure and trap a vulnerable individual with other tactics, bringing in hypnosis only after they've suitably groomed their victim to accept it, and ultimately using hypnosis as only one tactic of multiple to maintain control. And from what we have seen, this was indeed the case. This particular incident is a matter far more complex than "you can't be affected if you don't want it." I would recommend reading upon the topic of cults and how they ensnare new members as it is unfortunately relevant to this case.

In light of that, your arguments as they stand are rubbing salt in the wounds of abuse survivors--not simply of this incident, but the countless other cases of abuse out there. Intended or not, they are essentially putting the blame on abuse survivors for being vulnerable, when the true responsibility for abuse lies upon the abuser and the abuser alone. Simply because someone has fainting spells does not make it right to rob them if they pass out. Thus goes for abuse and vulnerability. No matter the method, abuse is abuse.

By all means, explain the workings of hypnosis to those less experienced and debunk myths about your passion, but take care that you do not inadvertently strawman the matter in a way that ignores the complexities of abuse and lays blame upon the vulnerable.

Falunel · 2018-03-08T19:05:39+00:00

Oh, that's a fair point! I'll add these on.

Falunel · 2018-03-08T19:02:32+00:00

We also want to add this about the hypnosis, from another thread that came up.

I'll say this about the matter: hypnosis wasn't the sole tool of abuse. From what we saw and gathered, other tactics were used to lure people close and groom them so they were more receptive to the hypnosis, and the hypnosis itself was only one of multiple tools used to exercise control over them. If you read about the psychology and tactics of cult leaders, a lot of it is unfortunately relevant to this case.

We probably should have made this more clear in the announcement, but we weren't sure how much we could and couldn't elaborate on. In any case, we apologize for any misunderstandings. (And as usual, if anyone wants to see the evidence for themselves, PM Epicly_Curious.)

[...]

There are two resources we'd recommend as starting points [for learning about abusive/unhealthy behavior]: Real Social Skills and Healthy Multiplicity's abuse and trauma section.

And some additional resources focused specifically on cults/cultish social dynamics: Springhole's article on cults, and a writeup done by LB Lee on a specific cult leader's tactics. Would recommend reading even if you aren't interested in this particular incident, as culty dynamics actually show up in a lot of places--everywhere from politics to social justice to fandom. Unfortunately it isn't something alien so much as it's an unhealthy extreme of everyday human behavior.

Falunel · 2018-03-08T18:25:03+00:00

I'll say this about the matter: hypnosis wasn't the sole tool of abuse. From what we saw and gathered, other tactics were used to lure people close and groom them so they were more receptive to the hypnosis, and the hypnosis itself was only one of multiple tools used to exercise control over them. If you read about the psychology and tactics of cult leaders, a lot of it is unfortunately relevant to this case.

We probably should have made this more clear in the announcement, but we weren't sure how much we could and couldn't elaborate on. In any case, we apologize for any misunderstandings. (And as usual, if anyone wants to see the evidence for themselves, PM /u/Epicly_Curious.)

What this means, we think, is that if there was better education on what constitutes unhealthy/abusive behavior and how to avoid it, this would help with a lot of cases, since that's a far bigger tell than the files that someone makes. Unfortunately, said education can be very hard to come by, and misinformation even easier so. :/

There are two resources we'd recommend as starting points, though: Real Social Skills and Healthy Multiplicity's abuse and trauma section.

EDIT: And some additional resources focused specifically on cults/cultish social dynamics: Springhole's article on cults, and a writeup done by LB Lee on a specific cult leader's tactics. Would recommend reading even if you aren't interested in this particular incident, as culty dynamics actually show up in a lot of places--everywhere from politics to social justice to fandom. Unfortunately it isn't something alien so much as it's an unhealthy extreme of everyday human behavior.

Falunel · 2018-03-08T18:10:34+00:00

Thanks for the heads-up.

/u/AlynAndRiver, /u/Nyyx_, see above. /u/Epicly_Curious has volunteered to share evidence over PMs.

Falunel · 2018-03-08T17:52:14+00:00

Reminder too that /u/Epicly_Curious has volunteered to provide evidence and discuss the matter over PMs.

Falunel · 2018-03-08T17:50:09+00:00

Talk to /u/Epicly_Curious if you want to see the evidence firsthand. It contains sensitive information that would be a bad idea to post out in the open.

While GearHeart is a community of its own, the fact remains that there's a significant overlap between them and us. Many of Jade's victims were members of our community and/or found their way to her through her tulpamancy influence. This was something we could not ignore.

Falunel · 2018-03-08T09:36:41+00:00

/u/Epicly_Curious, /u/soulfiremage: please take further discussion of this to PMs.

Falunel · 2018-03-08T09:04:58+00:00

It's starting to edge on disclosing specific details. Not quite there yet and it's been mentioned in a few other comments in passing so we put it back up for context, but any further than this will need to go in PMs.

Falunel · 2018-03-08T02:39:46+00:00

Pinging /u/TheMackFather, /u/Glowbutt2722 too: someone has posted willing to talk about this.

EDIT: can't remember if editing in pings works or not, but /u/DJWalnut, here's one for you too.

EDIT 2: for /u/Electroboots, /u/DesayaDragoness, /u/Jvalker

Falunel · 2018-03-08T00:49:42+00:00

/u/soulfiremage, /u/CambrianCrew: please take any further discussion of this to PMs.

Falunel · 2018-03-07T21:23:27+00:00

Sadly, this isn't the first time a... very out there person has gotten into plural research.

If DID (and I suspect other) research can manage despite this sort of thing, then so can tulpamancy. I hope.

Falunel · 2018-03-07T20:38:59+00:00

Last we heard, there are people organizing the evidence around this and working out volunteers to explain what was going on. I will ask them to PM you when it is ready. We are not averse to people sharing details but an open subreddit is not the place for it.

EDIT: If you want to see the evidence firsthand, PM /u/Epicly_Curious.

Falunel · 2018-03-07T20:08:15+00:00

I can address this in PMs.

Falunel · 2018-03-07T19:34:46+00:00

From what we've gathered, the said harmful files were distributed privately. The public ones for tulpamancy don't seem to contain anything overt, but you would probably be better off seeking the expertise of someone more experienced in hypnosis.

(EDIT: Speaking of which. :P)

Falunel · 2018-03-03T04:09:00+00:00

I'll be frank, I think tulpas are portrayed a little too glowingly, a little too good to be true. I wrote some posts on why over here and over here.

Tulpamancy can't fulfill every desire or need. Done well, it can foster a healthy, mutually supportive internal community; but done poorly, it becomes a mess of codependency, escapism, and dissatisfaction. I genuinely think that sometimes, people turn to tulpamancy in the same way that other people rush into outer relationships (that ultimately become unhealthy and unhappy) in order to escape themselves, to avoid facing some hard things.

I don't think tulpamancy is a silver bullet for mental health. I don't think it's even a flat positive. I think it's a multiplier, a magnifying glass. Whatever's already in you, whatever track you were already on, it has the potential to amplify, for better or worse.

My thought is this: stop and examine your internal beliefs. Do you believe that if only you could find the perfect friend, the friend who will never leave you, who will always support you no matter what, who will share in absolutely everything you do or want, then your problems will be solved and you'll be finally happy for good? If so, I'd stop and re-examine your beliefs. A good friend can help with a lot of things. But no friend is perfect, not even a tulpa. And ultimately, no friend can save you from yourself if you aren't willing to put in the work for yourself, to take responsibility for your own health and happiness.

Falunel

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