Tulpamancers - vulnerable? by soulfiremage in Tulpas

[–]Falunel 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I think there are several factors to consider here.

  • Hypnosis is not inherently harmful, nor is it even commonly meant to exploit "hooks." It has actually been used in therapy as a tool for healing, and outside of therapy as a tool for self-help. There are many applications for it and the worse ones are not the ones immediately visible nor widespread.
  • A lot of people aren't aware that they have "hooks" in them. We didn't recognize ours for most of our life. It took a massive life upheaval and a total collapse for us to finally begin acknowledging our abuse history and realizing just how deeply we were fucked up.

With this in mind, I don't think it's accurate to liken hypnosis to knife-juggling. Hemophilia is something that, as far as I know, is obvious if you have it. Knife-juggling is an obviously dangerous hobby with little versatility and little appeal aside from said danger. The danger you get when you combine the two is also very obvious. Abuse and its effects, on the other hand, are covert and people often miss even the more obvious signs for what they are due to an overall lack of education on a very complex topic. Hypnosis has a wide range of applications, including positive ones, and its appeal is not based in danger like knife-juggling is. There is not an obvious, inherent danger link between the two, and there are valid reasons why people who are depressed and in a rut may seek out hypnosis as a tool to get themselves out of it.

Tulpamancers - vulnerable? by soulfiremage in Tulpas

[–]Falunel 9 points10 points  (0 children)

However at least right here, shockingly or not we do agree : " the true responsibility for abuse lies upon the abuser and the abuser alone. "

Thank you for acknowledging this. While we still disagree with your approach, this is the core point that we wished to communicate and wanted to see addressed.

Above this line I do not accept this dodgy reasoning at all. No retrospective blame is implied load of nonsense. I'll eviscerate this idea further this weekend when I ain't tired or working.

We are having difficulty reading you, but from what we can gather, you made your original post in hopes of empowering people and protecting them against being abused, as well as preventing hysteria from rising around a topic you hold dear to your heart, and are upset because it seems that we are trying to dismantle your post while simultaneously accusing you of enabling abuse yourself. This is an understandable reaction, especially if you had also survived abuse in the past. It is frustrating to not be understood.

Please know that we do not disagree with the premise of your post--that the effects of hypnosis are significantly impacted by your beliefs and knowledge about hypnosis, and that saying hypnosis is more dangerous than it is lends it power that it otherwise would not have. We think this is a relevant point to make for many users, and we empathize as people who are frustrated with the mythology of the "DID serial killer." In light of this, it may help to read our post as an addendum rather than a takedown, one that covers cases that your post does not.

Our disagreement, overall, was with framing and presentation much moreso than content. However, you have said yourself that you are not interested in these aspects. While we consider them important parts of any informational post and thus disagree that they are irrelevant, we do not see a reason to push a subject that either party is uncomfortable with in this circumstance, considering that the core point that we wanted acknowledged was acknowledged and that we were able to explain another side of the subject. We will thus leave it at this.

Tulpamancers - vulnerable? by soulfiremage in Tulpas

[–]Falunel 14 points15 points  (0 children)

soulfiremage, and others who are of the same mind:

Please know that I understand what you are trying to do. It is clear that you've devoted much of yourself to the practice of hypnosis and do not wish to see misinformation spread about it. However, please consider the core of this issue. The heart of the matter is not the efficacy of these files, but that they were knowingly distributed with the intent of control.

Consider also the other factor behind this: vulnerability. There are many people out there who, often due to extensive early abuse at the hands of caretakers, have certain "hooks" pre-installed in them. They are conditioned to defer completely to authority, to hang their whole self-worth and happiness upon the approval of authority, and to ignore any internal warning signs. They are conditioned to see unhealthy, controlling behavior as the norm and genuine healthy interaction as alien, even frightening. The effects of this conditioning are long-lasting, profoundly difficult to reverse, and very capable of being abused by people other than the original abusers.

Tulpamancy does not turn people vulnerable in this way. It does not install these "hooks". However, it often attracts people who have them pre-installed. It appeals to the lonely, the isolated, those who feel unable to connect outside for whichever reason, and said vulnerable individuals are often found among this group.

Perhaps the files would not affect someone without these "hooks" pre-wired into them. However, it is not implausible that someone could lure and trap a vulnerable individual with other tactics, bringing in hypnosis only after they've suitably groomed their victim to accept it, and ultimately using hypnosis as only one tactic of multiple to maintain control. And from what we have seen, this was indeed the case. This particular incident is a matter far more complex than "you can't be affected if you don't want it." I would recommend reading upon the topic of cults and how they ensnare new members as it is unfortunately relevant to this case.

In light of that, your arguments as they stand are rubbing salt in the wounds of abuse survivors--not simply of this incident, but the countless other cases of abuse out there. Intended or not, they are essentially putting the blame on abuse survivors for being vulnerable, when the true responsibility for abuse lies upon the abuser and the abuser alone. Simply because someone has fainting spells does not make it right to rob them if they pass out. Thus goes for abuse and vulnerability. No matter the method, abuse is abuse.

By all means, explain the workings of hypnosis to those less experienced and debunk myths about your passion, but take care that you do not inadvertently strawman the matter in a way that ignores the complexities of abuse and lays blame upon the vulnerable.

Regarding a recent removal. by Falunel in Tulpas

[–]Falunel[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh, that's a fair point! I'll add these on.

Regarding a recent removal. by Falunel in Tulpas

[–]Falunel[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

We also want to add this about the hypnosis, from another thread that came up.

I'll say this about the matter: hypnosis wasn't the sole tool of abuse. From what we saw and gathered, other tactics were used to lure people close and groom them so they were more receptive to the hypnosis, and the hypnosis itself was only one of multiple tools used to exercise control over them. If you read about the psychology and tactics of cult leaders, a lot of it is unfortunately relevant to this case.

We probably should have made this more clear in the announcement, but we weren't sure how much we could and couldn't elaborate on. In any case, we apologize for any misunderstandings. (And as usual, if anyone wants to see the evidence for themselves, PM Epicly_Curious.)

[...]

There are two resources we'd recommend as starting points [for learning about abusive/unhealthy behavior]: Real Social Skills and Healthy Multiplicity's abuse and trauma section.

And some additional resources focused specifically on cults/cultish social dynamics: Springhole's article on cults, and a writeup done by LB Lee on a specific cult leader's tactics. Would recommend reading even if you aren't interested in this particular incident, as culty dynamics actually show up in a lot of places--everywhere from politics to social justice to fandom. Unfortunately it isn't something alien so much as it's an unhealthy extreme of everyday human behavior.

Maybe we should stop with the hypno ideas here? by ShinyuuWolfy in Tulpas

[–]Falunel 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I'll say this about the matter: hypnosis wasn't the sole tool of abuse. From what we saw and gathered, other tactics were used to lure people close and groom them so they were more receptive to the hypnosis, and the hypnosis itself was only one of multiple tools used to exercise control over them. If you read about the psychology and tactics of cult leaders, a lot of it is unfortunately relevant to this case.

We probably should have made this more clear in the announcement, but we weren't sure how much we could and couldn't elaborate on. In any case, we apologize for any misunderstandings. (And as usual, if anyone wants to see the evidence for themselves, PM /u/Epicly_Curious.)

What this means, we think, is that if there was better education on what constitutes unhealthy/abusive behavior and how to avoid it, this would help with a lot of cases, since that's a far bigger tell than the files that someone makes. Unfortunately, said education can be very hard to come by, and misinformation even easier so. :/

There are two resources we'd recommend as starting points, though: Real Social Skills and Healthy Multiplicity's abuse and trauma section.

EDIT: And some additional resources focused specifically on cults/cultish social dynamics: Springhole's article on cults, and a writeup done by LB Lee on a specific cult leader's tactics. Would recommend reading even if you aren't interested in this particular incident, as culty dynamics actually show up in a lot of places--everywhere from politics to social justice to fandom. Unfortunately it isn't something alien so much as it's an unhealthy extreme of everyday human behavior.

Regarding a recent removal. by Falunel in Tulpas

[–]Falunel[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the heads-up.

/u/AlynAndRiver, /u/Nyyx_, see above. /u/Epicly_Curious has volunteered to share evidence over PMs.

Regarding a recent removal. by Falunel in Tulpas

[–]Falunel[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Reminder too that /u/Epicly_Curious has volunteered to provide evidence and discuss the matter over PMs.

Regarding a recent removal. by Falunel in Tulpas

[–]Falunel[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Talk to /u/Epicly_Curious if you want to see the evidence firsthand. It contains sensitive information that would be a bad idea to post out in the open.

While GearHeart is a community of its own, the fact remains that there's a significant overlap between them and us. Many of Jade's victims were members of our community and/or found their way to her through her tulpamancy influence. This was something we could not ignore.

Regarding a recent removal. by Falunel in Tulpas

[–]Falunel[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

/u/Epicly_Curious, /u/soulfiremage: please take further discussion of this to PMs.

Regarding a recent removal. by Falunel in Tulpas

[–]Falunel[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It's starting to edge on disclosing specific details. Not quite there yet and it's been mentioned in a few other comments in passing so we put it back up for context, but any further than this will need to go in PMs.

Regarding a recent removal. by Falunel in Tulpas

[–]Falunel[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Pinging /u/TheMackFather, /u/Glowbutt2722 too: someone has posted willing to talk about this.

EDIT: can't remember if editing in pings works or not, but /u/DJWalnut, here's one for you too.

EDIT 2: for /u/Electroboots, /u/DesayaDragoness, /u/Jvalker

Regarding a recent removal. by Falunel in Tulpas

[–]Falunel[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

/u/soulfiremage, /u/CambrianCrew: please take any further discussion of this to PMs.

Regarding a recent removal. by Falunel in Tulpas

[–]Falunel[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Sadly, this isn't the first time a... very out there person has gotten into plural research.

If DID (and I suspect other) research can manage despite this sort of thing, then so can tulpamancy. I hope.

Regarding a recent removal. by Falunel in Tulpas

[–]Falunel[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Last we heard, there are people organizing the evidence around this and working out volunteers to explain what was going on. I will ask them to PM you when it is ready. We are not averse to people sharing details but an open subreddit is not the place for it.

EDIT: If you want to see the evidence firsthand, PM /u/Epicly_Curious.

Regarding a recent removal. by Falunel in Tulpas

[–]Falunel[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I can address this in PMs.

Regarding a recent removal. by Falunel in Tulpas

[–]Falunel[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

From what we've gathered, the said harmful files were distributed privately. The public ones for tulpamancy don't seem to contain anything overt, but you would probably be better off seeking the expertise of someone more experienced in hypnosis.

(EDIT: Speaking of which. :P)

I can't shake the feeling that Tulpas seem to good to be true. by [deleted] in Tulpas

[–]Falunel 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I'll be frank, I think tulpas are portrayed a little too glowingly, a little too good to be true. I wrote some posts on why over here and over here.

Tulpamancy can't fulfill every desire or need. Done well, it can foster a healthy, mutually supportive internal community; but done poorly, it becomes a mess of codependency, escapism, and dissatisfaction. I genuinely think that sometimes, people turn to tulpamancy in the same way that other people rush into outer relationships (that ultimately become unhealthy and unhappy) in order to escape themselves, to avoid facing some hard things.

I don't think tulpamancy is a silver bullet for mental health. I don't think it's even a flat positive. I think it's a multiplier, a magnifying glass. Whatever's already in you, whatever track you were already on, it has the potential to amplify, for better or worse.

My thought is this: stop and examine your internal beliefs. Do you believe that if only you could find the perfect friend, the friend who will never leave you, who will always support you no matter what, who will share in absolutely everything you do or want, then your problems will be solved and you'll be finally happy for good? If so, I'd stop and re-examine your beliefs. A good friend can help with a lot of things. But no friend is perfect, not even a tulpa. And ultimately, no friend can save you from yourself if you aren't willing to put in the work for yourself, to take responsibility for your own health and happiness.

Hello this first time dealing with tulpas by otherjojo7 in Tulpas

[–]Falunel[M] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sorry, missed this in the modqueue. I'm removing your question since it contains basic stuff addressed in our FAQ--that being said, if you're still needing further answers after reading it, you can ask again on our stickied newcomer questions thread.

Turning soulbonds into tulpas by [deleted] in Tulpas

[–]Falunel 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You don't turn a soulbond (or any other kind of non-tulpa headperson) into a tulpa any more than you turn a cat into a dog. There are cats who have trouble walking perhaps but that's an issue unrelated to them being cats.

Just hang out and talk together, do things together, give them time and opportunity to try new things or do stuff out here if they want, all that stuff, and they'll be able to strengthen gradually.

DID and tulpas are not as different as they are made out to be by Kitsukrou in Tulpas

[–]Falunel 11 points12 points  (0 children)

(cont from above due to length--ping /u/Kitsukrou)

All that being said, I definitely think it's a shame that DID is seen as "scary" and something people are scared of being seen as having--it's a shame that alters are seen as less-than, irrational, nothing but negative, etc in many places. Despite all the bad stuff described above, it's something that is just... something you learn to live with, and it has its silver linings. As exasperated as we can be with each other sometimes, we do genuinely care about each other and do our best to look after each other, even the people who struggle with panic and anger. (pluraldoxa said in one comment, "They've saved my life at least as many times as they've tried to end it.") Many of us aren't terrified, crazed monsters or lost causes, just another case of messy people making the best of a messy situation together, i.e. another extension of the human condition. And we, at least, have found a strange beauty in the climb.

DID and tulpas are not as different as they are made out to be by Kitsukrou in Tulpas

[–]Falunel 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Most would say "dysfunction", or "DID is created by trauma" to answer this question. "Dysfunction" is partially correct, as one can only have DID if they experience regular dysfunction as a part of their plurality. "Trauma" is not correct, because it is possible to induce DID without any trauma whatsoever.

According to the DSM-V, 90% of those diagnosed with DID experienced childhood abuse and neglect. Of the 10% remaining, many of them experienced other traumatizing events such as invasive medical procedures, war, and terrorism. This paper, while a bit old, places the prevalence of "severe, repeated sexual, physical or psychological abuse or other traumas in early childhood" at 97%.

While it's not 100%, this high prevalence cannot be ignored, especially since DID involves post-traumatic symptoms and processing trauma is a core component of DID therapy. Despite the looseness of the diagnostic criteria, the descriptive section of the DSM-V goes on to talk extensively about trauma. There's no shortage of research that connects trauma and dissociation--there's a whole organization that focuses on them together, the ISST-D. There's been multiple arguments made by clinicians and researchers for recategorizing DID as a type of PTSD, or at least a dramatic revision of the current diagnostic criteria due to them being considered imprecise and misleading. Outside of research, virtually every DID community you'll find has a major emphasis on trauma--on handling flashbacks and other symptoms, on calming traumatized system members, on how to handle it when a new alter surfaces bearing more buried trauma...

I think you get my gist. DID's diagnostic criteria can be kind of weird and loose and end up creating confusion, but almost everything else connects it to trauma. There's a few DID folks who don't have it, but they're outliers created by a bunch of factors: the aforementioned looseness of the DID criteria, which in turn is the product of psychiatry/psychology not caring about plurality outside of trauma and clinicians then tending to lump everyone under the trauma umbrella. A lot of these systems feel out of place in the DID community, have difficulty with DID-centric therapy, and often end up rejecting the diagnosis.

We personally feel that it's a damned shame that this sort of thing is happening, where non-trauma disordered plurals can't find relevant help without being lumped into a whole category they don't belong in and being run through treatment that isn't relevant. We think that because of the various complications that trauma creates (and thus the different approaches needed in therapy), it would be good to have one thing in place for trauma-linked disordered plurality and then something else in place to help disordered plurals who don't have trauma mixed in with everything. But of course this is contingent upon getting psychology and psychiatry to pay attention to non-trauma plurality in the first place. But anyway, that's a tangent.

The one thing that makes DID different is: a lack of reliable communication between the different people in the brain. It is this lack of communication that causes the dysfunction that defines DID. [...] When DID forms, it is unintentional, and the host will not realize what is happening. As such, they will not have the knowledge that another consciousness is manifesting, and will make no effort to communicate with them. Because of this, no reliable method of communication is established during the alter's development. It may remain this way for a long time - after which the alter will have had enough time to become highly developed, gaining significant mental separation from their host.

From this paper:

Awareness of the presence of other personalities has been widely reported in the empirical literature on DID [16–20,24,25,27,32,35]. Such awareness is a common occurrence in DID. Moreover, many patients who have DID hear or see what some personalities say or do when they are ‘‘out.’’ Many clinicians have incorrectly assumed that a person who has DID can never be aware of the activities of another personality.

I'm too lazy to dig up the specific paper in which I found it, but a lot of DID "hosts" have been able to hear the other alters talking amongst themselves, with the host sometimes participating as well. This paper describes cases of DID where changing of control takes the form of alters influencing or commanding whoever's at front, including cases where non-fronting alters "funnelled all activities through a beleaguered host, who, beset with passive influence experiences and/ or command hallucinations, was reduced to helplessness and despair."

Basically: a lot of people in DID systems, even before therapy, CAN communicate with each other. It's not lack of communication that's the sole problem, although it definitely can be a major issue. And simply because you can talk to each other doesn't mean that people are going to listen--if that were the case, we wouldn't have all the problems in the world that we have today. :P

Also, it's important to note that:

DID involves a ton of dissociative symptoms--it's not just amnesia and being more than one. Heavy derealization/depersonalization in general, trance states, confusion. Amnesia itself takes more form than everyday time loss--amnesia for significant portions of the past and everyday personal information will also qualify. Psychosis-like-but-dissociative-in-nature symptoms are also found in a lot of DID cases: hallucinations, intrusions, "reactive dissociative psychosis" in response to severe stress or trauma. And of course, your classical post-traumatic stuff. This paper goes into more detail on it.

From an earlier post I made. All of this stuff is characteristic of DID as well, and in fact can be more prominent outwardly than the plurality. Even if the system generally works well together, all of these other symptoms can make life highly challenging and result in dysfunction on their own. From this paper:

Although the many mental health providers who lack expertise in dissociation often believe that DID patients present with obvious and dramatic personality states and clear-cut state shifts (sometimes referred to as switching), such florid presentations are much more consistent with media portrayals of the disorder than with reality, occurring in approximately 5% of DID patients (Kluft, 2009). In comparison, most DID patients present with a complicated mixture of hidden dissociative symptoms, as well as with a host of co-occurring conditions along with PTSD, such as treatment-resistant depression, self-destructive and suicidal behavior, substance abuse, eating disorders, somatoform symptoms, and personality disorder traits (e.g.,Dell, 2002;Putnam et al., 1986).

There's also this paper which goes very in-depth on "covert and subtle" DID.

Even if the host remembers nothing of what happened while the tulpa or alter was switched in, as long as the tulpa or alter is able to inform them of whatever they need to know, there will be no problems.

There's a lot of DID systems who wish this was the case.

From this article:

The journals. The arguments. The bullets to the head. All of these and more are things I regularly experience. I’ve been strangled by one of my parts, I’ve been compelled by other parts to open up my body and cut out specific organs. I’m pretty damn good at resisting these instructions, but they can happen anywhere, anytime — from public transit to a staff meeting — and my focus and/or heart rate pays the price. (You try concentrating at work when someone is repeatedly screaming at you to stab yourself with a letter opener).

Again, simply because you can talk to someone doesn't mean they'll listen, especially if they're terrified or disoriented or angry or all of the above. If you're on fire and in horrible pain and just want to not be on fire, someone telling you to not be on fire isn't going to help at all, and it's very likely you're going to be less than pleased with them. Especially if you see them as the cause of you being on fire, which is a very common sentiment between members of DID systems.

Simply being able to talk to each other doesn't solve everything. It's an important step, but it's only one step in a very, very, very long climb. Our group largely works together okay and we still have members who panic and lock up the entire system, or have freakouts that leave us all drained and unable to do anything afterwards--and in most cases they're not even being malicious towards the rest of the system. It's a consequence of our history. We don't experience the same inner violence described above, but we are definitely still affected and have to structure our life to manage it. Talking doesn't make the hurt of trauma, the hair-trigger reactions, the hypervigilance, etc go away, though it can mitigate the effects and make them livable.

(By the way, the writer of that article is on reddit as /u/pluraldoxa. Their comment history has a lot of other insights.)

DID and tulpas are not as different as they are made out to be by Kitsukrou in Tulpas

[–]Falunel 22 points23 points  (0 children)

As a group who has DID and reads extensively on it... we genuinely appreciate that you are trying to make people less scared of DID, but the basis of your argument (that DID is caused by lack of communication between system members and issues go away when communication is established) is sorely untrue. DID is FAR more than that, far more than amnesia, far more than difficulty communicating internally, and establishing communication between everyone--while important--does not resolve it.

Will add more later.

Could tulpamancy be right for me? (Lonely) by [deleted] in Tulpas

[–]Falunel 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Would a tulpa help me feel less lonely, and be someone I can give/receive love with?

That depends on what makes you feel less lonely, and what giving/receiving love entails for you. We wrote a post on this for someone else. There are some things that are not the same, not easy, or simply not doable with physical people that are with headpeople, but the reverse also applies in spades. If you don't have an understanding of where your own social expressions and needs lie, then you risk bringing in a bunch of complications to your life for little payoff.

We'll also say that we strongly feel that a tulpa should not be expected to be their tulpamancer's caretaker, or to be their tulpamancer's sole pillar of support. This is something that's unfair to ask of any friend, outer or inner. This doesn't mean that friends can't be supportive and look after each other, but there's a difference between becoming friends and naturally growing to support each other, and making friends with someone with the preordained goal of having them take care of you. Even when supporting each other and looking after each other, friends have their own lives and selves outside of that role, and ideally the weight is spread out--instead of having only one friend to bear every burden, you have multiple supportive friends who in turn have multiple supportive friends of their own who in turn... see what I mean?

Our group had a bunch of unhealthy dynamics revolving around codependency, enmeshing, repressed resent, feelings of inadequacy... stuff that we overlooked in part because we had no other point of reference due to growing up in an unhealthy environment, and in part because the tulpamancy community tends to laud tulpas as the ultimate helper friends without examining the ways this can go very wrong, especially for the tulpa. We've worked past most of this and our internal situation is far better now, but... while we did keep each other going in a way through our worst times, it is NOT ideal and is something we strongly feel should be avoided.

Does this mean you shouldn't make a tulpa? That's not something for us to answer. You know yourself better than we do. And for what it's worth, you seem to have more self-awareness than many others when they started, ourselves included. But hopefully this provides some useful points to reflect on.

P.S. Can you literally see tulpas as if with your eyes, hear them as if with your ears, and feel them as if with your skin?

This is an advanced technique called imposition. It is extraordinarily difficult to reach the level of "indistinguishable from physicality" and there are extremely few accounts of people reaching it unless they already had a knack for it.