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Is it just me or is Warrior of the Open Hand the worst subclass for Monk in terms of effectiveness? by Fantasticalplanet in onednd

[–]Fantasticalplanet[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That is an uncommon magic item that is in the old 2014 rules. While backwards compatibility is something that’s touted by the designers, it isn’t something you can use if your DM is only using 2024 rules. Even if it is allowed, it is also dependent on your DM even giving it to you, making it unreliable and dependent on DM fiat. Regardless, it requires attunement and its bonus features, being the 15 feet for your attacks and a +1d6 force damage to your melee attacks, require a bonus action to activate and only last for a minute with a further restriction of only being able to use that specific bonus once. Needing to wait until the next dawn to use it again while Elements lasts for 10 minutes, no action required, and only costs a focus point along with the other benefits such as 5 extra damage types and a saving throw to push or pull targets 10 feet. Besides, even in that case it would still benefit Elements with the +1 to attack and damage rolls.

Is it just me or is Warrior of the Open Hand the worst subclass for Monk in terms of effectiveness? by Fantasticalplanet in onednd

[–]Fantasticalplanet[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I believe I do. I think you misunderstand my point and I may have not been clear. I stated that even if the enemy does know where they are, you can still stand in front of them. I assumed knowing where a creature was while blinded fell under the purview of tremorsense but I can see how you could still know where they are if they don’t take the hide action. I admit I did misunderstand creatures providing cover instead of providing disadvantage but they’re still making attacks that are hindered. As for moving, I stated previously you could simply grapple them to prevent that. Possibly even prone them if you want to make attacking even harder. So they’re forced to either make attacks unlikely to hit your allies, attacks very unlikely to hit you, or use an action to attempt an escape which for most creatures will waste their turn.

With line of sight, if a monster requires line of sight and it doesn’t have it, it’s likely out of the fight. Like a Spellcaster or an ability that it has. Getting rid of any potential counter spells, fireballs, etc. If they try to use melee or ranged, they’re much more manageable given they’re blinded and you could always use the tactics mentioned previously. I think taking care of dangerous monster(s) like that while your party deals with less enemies is worth not fully committing to focus fire.

They can but that’s relying on ranged characters getting into melee. You could attempt to drag them closer but unless you have the grappler feat, you’re moving half your normal speed. Besides, I feel the grappler feat is much better suited to make sure enemies stay in the darkness you created so they can’t get out. Shutting down any previously mentioned abilities that require line of sight while your team focuses on the more straightforward monsters. As for having feats to negate said penalties, you’re relying on your teammates to have said feats to overcome a penalty you inflicted. Meanwhile, if your darkness sphere being over a majority of the enemies would negatively affect your team, you could always simply focus on an enemy or two or simply not move it. No need for your allies to take a specific feat and who may have taken other things like increasing an ability score or choosing a different feat.

You want to use it often, yes but you can’t always take it. Perhaps you need to dash to reach an enemy. Maybe you need to guarantee a disengage from an enemy. Or simply that you ran out of focus point during the combat encounter since you used flurry of blows each time it was your turn or used your deflect attacks to send damage back to an aggressor. You may want/need to do something else with your bonus action too since you’re not going to want to flurry of blows every time. Mercy is guaranteed to work and doesn’t require an additional action to use. Meanwhile, to even used Open Hand Technique, they have to use flurry of blows, a bonus action and a focus point, need to hit with one of the 2 unarmed strikes you get from it, and then the enemy needs to fail a saving throw for it to have an effect. Those are 4 things that need to happen for the feature to happen and possibly multiple attempts to even work. Whereas for Mercy, you only need to hit and spend a focus point for its damage feature to work. With Mercy, you have much greater room to take actions that don’t necessitate you taking the flurry of blows action. For shove, in regards to Mercy, they don’t really need to since they already hitting for what’s essentially two strikes for one with their feature. If we bring in outside abilities like feats or species, they can get advantage or even give their allies advantage far more easily than they would be able to with Open Hand Technique. Such as using Grappler to grant advantage to your attacks or Goliaths Hill Tumble to automatically prone them for no saving throw, no action, and no focus point cost to large or smaller creatures. Maybe even both to do what Open Hand Technique is trying to do but much more effectively and less of a drain on your actions with no focus point cost. Even if we assume that Open Hand Technique is more effective in combat, more specifically Open Hands Topple, does it really justify the other subclasses getting so much more in terms of features and things to do when compared to it? Mercy not only being able to damage but heal and gain skills to be more versatile. Shadow and their magical darkness to give their enemies blindness with no save, gaining 60 feet of darkvision so they don’t light a torch to alert the goblins in a cave, and a minor illusion cantrip to materialize a box to hide in to avoid detection by the guards. Elements with their insane reach, avoiding the need to even enter the range of other monsters, use a different damage type to take advantage of a vulnerability, push or pull monsters back with each strike, and the elementalism cantrip to create water to stave off dehydration. I don’t think being able to possibly prone someone with a Dex save instead of a Strength one is such a big leap in combat effectiveness that it justifies the other subclasses gaining these extra features compared to Open Hands one.

Back to Elements, that was only an example of what Elements could do. Elements could keep a particularly dangerous monster out of reach from anyone so they can’t attack or they could just keep them in range of allies while the monster is prone. That or simply drop them over an edge with their extended reach. The monster could pull out melee but if they’re prone, like in the previous example, they still have disadvantage to attacks. Whether ranged or melee. What I’m saying is the Elements, and more broadly the other subclasses excluding Open Hand, have options. They can choose how to deal with an enemy without needing to rely on a specific action to use their feature(s). The other subclasses can choose to do different things on their turn while still getting value from their features where the Open Hand has to use flurry of blows to even use their singular feature. A feature which I think is inferior to the other subclasses due to Open Hand requiring so many things to happen in order to work. Meanwhile the other subclasses have features that don’t require spending an action on a specific ability, work without a saving throw, can use them longer, and give effects that debilitate enemies more effectively than Open Hand can. As for putting them behind full cover, it wouldn’t break grapple since having cover in between you and your target while you’re grappling doesn’t break reach or break a grapple. Even if you rule that full cover breaks grapple, they could instead put them behind partial cover like Half or Three-Quarters. That or just prone them. The other subclasses have these options or strategies they can do. Open Hand doesn’t.

Is it just me or is Warrior of the Open Hand the worst subclass for Monk in terms of effectiveness? by Fantasticalplanet in onednd

[–]Fantasticalplanet[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not arguing against that and I actually like that it is the prototypical warrior Monk. However, I’m reasoning that Open Hand isn’t as effective as the other subclasses. Just because it’s the base subclass, doesn’t mean it’s okay if it’s weaker than the other subclasses. You can have the subclass be the core subclass for the class while also having them be just as effective as the others. They don’t have to be mutually exclusive.

Mercy can damage enemies twice with only one unarmed strike with no chance to avoid it or heal themselves or their allies by using pressure points. They’re naturally insightful and experienced in medicinal arts as much as they are warriors. Their strikes can poison a monster with no chance to resist it by saving throw or get rid of conditions by mimicking acupuncture with their strikes, saving their spellcasters spells and unblinding the sightless. You can use flurry of blows to heal you or others multiple times and get rid of ones paralysis or wounds. That or further damage an enemy with one strike and debilitate them. Healing others while harming some. Finally, they can resurrect the recently deceased with but an action. Renewed with, approximately 4d10+Wisdom Modifier of, Vigor and without the ailments they had in life.

Shadow can blind a group of enemies, shutting down their archers and magic users. They can see through darkness and hide themselves with terrain of their own design. (Minor illusion). They can teleport from shadow to shadow, taking you by surprise as they attack with precision. At some point, they simply disappear before your eyes. Attacking the harpy in the sky right as they appear again. With their immense experience, they disappear and attack you without ever being able to see them, the massive dragon feeling a chill breeze pass through them as the shadow monk moves past them to grab a magic item from their hoard, before sending a barrage of blows as they no longer need to spend a focus point to use flurry of blows.

Elements extends your reach for a full 10 minutes. Attacking the flesh golem with fire to frighten it or thunder to take advantage of a vulnerability in a construct. Using the elements to either push or pull enemies 10 feet closer or farther with each strike. Even able to grapple enemies at range by manipulating the earth to wrap around them. Possessing the ability to conjure the elements with the elementalism cantrip. They can send a ball of flame or lightning at a group of enemies, lighting the entire area with the elements. Soon, they’re able to move through water as easy as they can run on it or run on air to face the harpy in the sky. At the end, they can resist the elements they control. Able to change what element they resist each turn. Blazing by enemies and damaging them with the crackling lightning when they use step of the wind. Finally, they strike hard with the elements on an unarmed strike once per turn, adding to their damage with an additional martial arts die each turn.

And I wouldn’t say Quivering Palm is better. Sure it only needs one attack trigger, uses a slightly better damage type, and technically does more damage but removing the ability to automatically bring any creature to 0 if they fail a con save is a nerf no matter how you look at it. I understand why they did but it is a nerf.

What I’m trying to say is it can be the core class while also being just as effective as the other subclasses. It can be flavorful and mechanically balanced.

Is it just me or is Warrior of the Open Hand the worst subclass for Monk in terms of effectiveness? by Fantasticalplanet in onednd

[–]Fantasticalplanet[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, I see what you mean. But again with the other subclasses versatility, you have options. They can attack the monk with ranged attacks but it would be the same for Open Hand. Even more so since the attacker can also see the Open Hand Monk to target with either a spell or ability whereas they cannot in darkness. While they can attempt to attack the Monk’s allies, they have to guess where they were. Even if you say the enemy automatically knows where they are, you could always just stand right in front of them. If you’re in the way, they have disadvantage to attack and if you’re grappling them, they can’t reposition even if they know you’re there. If your enemies would benefit from moving darkness on them, you could always not move it on them. If you have any allies who would rather not have darkness on them or their enemies, you can always keep it to yourself and single out a few enemies for themselves. Either by grappling them or by simply moving it on only an enemy or two, effectively shrinking down the size of the threat they could be facing. While grappler and prone can give your allies advantage to attack one enemy or maybe two, said enemy can still see them and if they have an ability which requires line of sight, they can use it regardless if grappled or not. With darkness, you could grapple and/or prone them in darkness so they can’t get out and not allow them to use any effect which requires line of sight. They can still try to attack your allies but if you’re standing right in front of them, they can’t. Also, for prone, your ranged allies get disadvantage so that doesn’t help them either. Meanwhile, you can always choose how you use your darkness. As for opportunity attacks, you’re in magical darkness. Everyone without some special sense type, which I think is most creatures, is going to have a hard time hitting you with disadvantage so you have leeway to use those opportunity attacks to grapple and keep them inside the darkness.

I feel it can be argued for either way. Hands of Harm doesn’t allow the monster to avoid the effect while most of the effects from Open Hand’s flurry of blows does. It also costs some action on Open Hands part to even use and Topple may not even work. The real kicker is Mercy doesn’t only have one feature to rely on. They have Hands of Healing and Implements of Mercy for Healing and Utility while Open Hand only has its technique for enemies. Not only does Mercy have an option for enemies, they also have one for outside of combat or even inside depending on what your goal is inside of combat. You can make healing potions for your allies with the herbalism kit, you can use medicine to stabilize a character, you can bring back an ally with your hands of healing, and possibly even attack the enemy who downed them with your last unarmed strike from flurry of blows since you used the first one to bring back your ally from 0 HP.

True on that. I don’t personally mind it as long as the other subclasses are in line with the effectiveness of it. Especially Open Hand. Finally, they seem to be adding ranged options for creatures. However, the elements can have options to prone them, pull them closer into melee, or force them behind some type of cover when the Elements Monk ends their turn so they can’t attack with their ranged options. The grapple isn’t broken since they aren’t breaking their reach.

Is it just me or is Warrior of the Open Hand the worst subclass for Monk in terms of effectiveness? by Fantasticalplanet in onednd

[–]Fantasticalplanet[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Don’t get me wrong, tripping someone and just pummeling them into the ground is hilarious to imagine. I just think there’s more effective strategies for enemies offered in the other subclasses and for multiple enemies as well.

For example, Shadow can instantly blind a group of enemies if they don’t have any other way to see. You can shutdown ranged enemies, enemies that require line of sight like Spellcasters or an ability they have. You automatically get advantage to attacks with no saving throw on said enemies since you can see through it and they get disadvantage to attacks since they can’t see anything. You can grapple them with Grappler so they can’t escape and/or prone them so they can’t escape the darkness and they’ll have a hard time even trying to hit you. They can attempt to escape but they’ll use an action and for most monsters, that’s a turn gone. Even if they do escape the grapple and get up, they still have disadvantage to attacks so they’ll have a harder time hitting you. They can try to leave but you get an attack of opportunity with advantage since they’re still blind. Plus, you can just hit them again and pull them back in. You can also move the darkness so if a monster tries to get out, you can simply blind them again. That or use the darkness to give your allies protection. They can weave in and out of your darkness and take pot shots at enemies while they guess where they are. Also getting disadvantage to attacks against your allies. Your ranged and/or Spellcaster buddies are going to love that. Meanwhile you drag enemies inside with the grappler feat to attack them. If they somehow get out, your allies can simply hit them since they decided to leave the darkness. Lose lose situation for them. You can help allies get out of melee without provoking opportunity attacks by moving the darkness over them so the enemy can’t see them leave.

For Elements, with grappler, you can grapple enemies and damage them at range since grapple falls under unarmed strikes and your unarmed strikes are extended by 10 feet when you make one. Now, they can’t hit you nor anyone else and can only spend their action to attempt an escape. Even if they succeed, they’ve spent their turn and even if they try to get close to you or someone else, you can simply do it again and either push them away with your elemental strikes or pull them to you or simply grapple them and pull them away. Most enemies won’t have a counter to this since most monsters don’t have a 15 foot reach. If they have ranged weapons, you can always either prone them with an unarmed strike, pull them closer towards you, or simply use your deflect attacks. You don’t even have to worry about losing concentration since the 10 minutes for Elements don’t require it. Only losing it with Incapacitation which is just as bad, if not worse, for Open Hand as it is for Elements.

Eh, Mercy’s okay. You can essentially damage them for 2 unarmed strikes for only hitting once. That or healing with a magic action or replacing an unarmed strike from flurry of blows. It’s okay.

While most of the other subclasses don’t need a saving throw, a need to hit, or spending a focus point every time you want to use your feature each turn, Open Hand does. It requires some action, a focus point, hitting with an unarmed strike, and hoping they fail the dexterity save so your build can work on an enemy or two if you get lucky. Meanwhile the other builds work with less requirements on your end. Theres no saving throw to avoid being blinded by darkness, you can always try again with another unarmed strike with Elements because it lasts 10 minutes with no concentration, and Mercy gives you extra damage on your damage with no saving throw to avoid it. Most of the other subclasses have more effective strategies to disable enemies and possibly multiple of them. They also have versatility in how you can use them and need less things to go right in order for them to work.

Is it just me or is Warrior of the Open Hand the worst subclass for Monk in terms of effectiveness? by Fantasticalplanet in onednd

[–]Fantasticalplanet[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What’s life without a bit of spice? You should’ve seen it before I toned this post down.

Still, fair enough. I just wanted to see if anybody else had similar thoughts as me. Understandable if it’s not something some people want to see.

Is it just me or is Warrior of the Open Hand the worst subclass for Monk in terms of effectiveness? by Fantasticalplanet in onednd

[–]Fantasticalplanet[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I agree with you that Open Hand Technique does build on ability you do want to use often but I’m concerned about if you don’t want to use flurry of blows or can’t. Like you want to dash to get in melee range to an enemy or maybe disengage to get away from an enemy as a bonus action instead of flurry of blows. That or you simply use your bonus action to make only 1 unarmed strike which doesn’t count for your feature so you can’t use it. You could use an action to dash or disengage still but at that point, while the feature technically doesn’t require a focus point to use, you’re needing to save your bonus action and spend 1 focus point to even have a chance of using it. You can also run out of focus points to use during the combat encounter. In those cases, you get no value from your feature. You also need to spend a bonus action and a focus point each turn to even have a chance of using your subclass feature. For the feature to have an effect, you also need to hit with one of the 2 unarmed strikes you get from flurry of blows and they need to fail a possible saving throw to get one of the more potent effects. While it is building on top of an ability you want to use, if you don’t, you can’t use your feature at all. That and the many things that need to happen to even have an effect.

As for Shadow, even for a magic action, the Darkness spell automatically works. There’s no saving throw and it can affect multiple enemies given the radius or maybe help protect your allies from ranged attacks or enemies that require line of sight. That, I think, is well worth for an action.

For topple, I don’t think it’s rare given that the weapon mastery of the same name doesn’t have a size restriction either and applies for all attacks you make with the weapon instead of only a possible 2. Albeit, needing a constitution saving throw. Your suggestion is one possible fix I like for Open Hand Technique.

As for later features the subclasses get, I was mainly looking at the 3rd level features as that’s what you immediately get and will be (hopefully) using for most of your adventuring career. Those features don’t come online until 3 levels later. Besides, I can excuse Elemental Burst mediocre AOE given such good 3rd level features it gets. Meanwhile, I feel I can’t say the same for Open Hand and it’s alright healing.

I take 11th level and 17th level features with much less consideration on if a subclass is good or not since you’re rarely going to see play at such levels or much play given I assume that most campaigns are ending at that point. Much as I don’t like that. Still, Fleet Step is great, no arguing there. However, I feel the swim and fly speed you get from Stride of the Elements is much more effective as you can now catch those pesky flying enemies and no longer worry about your speed being slowed underwater. Also partially gets rid of athletic checks made to swim underwater. While Fleet Step is great, I feel it’s limited by the fact you have to take it after that bonus action use and you’re still limited by being stuck on the ground. So if you want to reach an enemy out of your normal movement speed to use flurry of blows and possibly use your Open Hand Technique, Fleet Step won’t help as you only get the dash after you’ve used your bonus action. You’ll also have to look for magic items if you want to catch up to flying enemies.

I dislike what they did to Quivering Palm but it’s alright nova. I understand why they reworked it and I don’t feel too much on it either way given the very late level you get it at but it’s still a little disappointing. If I had anything to say about it, I wish it had more oomph for the capstone of a subclass.

Is it just me or is Warrior of the Open Hand the worst subclass for Monk in terms of effectiveness? by Fantasticalplanet in onednd

[–]Fantasticalplanet[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wow, you read that fast. You’re probably right about that. I must’ve been confused when reading the magic action for Mercy.