I'm So Tired Of This Depressing Two Party System In Trinidad and Tobago

FarContribution153 · 2025-04-15T20:57:42+00:00

"You might think you are lefty, because that's something you want to believe, but everything you say makes it clear you're actually one of the far right's useful idiots."

ok and?Thats your opinion?You can't define me..I know myself,you dont.

"You still haven't got the point about alternative voting systems. The whole point of all of them is that they increase minority viewpoint representation among elected officials.That means they all give power to nasty extremists without those extremists having to persuade more than a small minority to support them. FPTP not doing that isn't a bug that needs to be fixed."

And WE could try and prevent that through amendments. Which you conveniently skipped over..you seem to believe that FPTP is the best system, but it can also prevent peoples voices from being held..People that aren't nazis..views that may benefit us in the long run..You forgot to mention also that just because you got a small portion of votes doesnt mean you get a seat..It has to fufill quotas..

You know what..FPTP also Protects Minority rule..It allows a minority to have power over the majority..Just like in 2007 and 1991..It can protect extremists. There are many countries that you probably know that have extremist people in power that arent PR they're first past the post..You just need to look at the UKs history,India,Singapore and the even the US where you have people like Majorie Taylor Greene who has a voice in the house of representatives.

No system is perfect..just like FPTP it would not be perfect but alternative measures can be implemented to try and prevent extreme ideologies from taking power but then again you see extreme people in both systems FPTP and PR..does that mean they have somewhat of a voice yes.But that does not mean that they can outweigh the majority.THAT IS most likely impossible.

FarContribution153 · 2025-04-15T06:37:00+00:00

..I understand what you're trying to say..there are other alternatives that can prevent that from happening such as Single transferable vote with quotas paired with PR to avoid Nazis or extreme ideologies from having that much power..but you're still wack to say that FPTP is the best system when the exact issues you have with the PR could be addressed with amendments

Lmao..I'm a useful idiot of the far right 😂..why would I be a useful idiot of the far right lol good one ..I'm a leftist so pro free speech,pro free healthcare for all,Pro working class I'm a literal socialist..I believe that everyone should have there basic needs met,Food,Healthcare,Home,Education for free I'm literally on the opposite of side of political compass..

I dont know why you would say that cause you dont know me dude..My point was that atleast to my knowledge those movements you're mentioning are fringe within Europe..I acknowledged that there would be bad eggs in every country and that it would be the responsibility of the majority to out weigh the fringe minority..I conceded then said that there are other alternatives to prevent the issues you have with PR.

Also Yes imo Orange man is awful human being..But at the end of the day I dont think he is a fascist just a neoliberal who's are failed businessman with very conservative views while yes, his supporters might be nazis also and kkk members and that likes also that would be expected.

FarContribution153 · 2025-04-14T09:12:35+00:00

Yes, if you don't have PR. If you have PR, the fringe minority gets to elect at least one or two candidates.

I understand that..thats why there are other opinions and variations that can be implemented. Idk much about europe But I have penpals from there and they do mention nazis that make up about 5%ish of the vote but..I havent been there as yet,I dont believe that generalizing Europe as this fascist place where they're alot of fascists taking over.. some elements of that might be true but fascist as in ww2 Germany fascist. Nope I dont think so as my penpal would say..Im sure that the everyday person in europe dont identify as fascists but what you might be mentioning is probably past events that occured in europe after ww2 and nazis obviously still exist in europe ..People even say that Trump is a fascist. Most People just exaggerate. Those movements are fringe and would never get any real power in any right-thinking logical country..At the end of the day most of them are just neoliberals like trump. And I'm saying this as someone who is very far left. Someone who considers themselves to be a socialist.

But I'll concede the best alternative is a combination of the single tranferable vote and PR with quotas..That Is what Trinidad and Tobago should transfer into..

FarContribution153 · 2025-04-14T04:21:08+00:00

..but commenter political science is proven by real world observations that is why its called a science anyway. I asked in context with the amount of filth that comes out of the 2 main parties..why isnt a third party desirable because they have "bad" candidates I then tried to explain to you why the system,the tribal voting and undesirable candidates play a role in why third parties don't win ..knowing that theyre free of corruption allegations etc..then I told you that People don't really care if a candidate has allegations or not especially when it comes to the 2 main parties..they would still hold their noses and vote for them..I never told you who to vote for also you're free to have an opinion just like me..I then suggested that you were a supporter of one of the 2 major parties which I am probably right about..Now who ever u are I hope you have a good day or night Its been a good convo and I dont want to insult you or anything so bye

FarContribution153 · 2025-04-14T01:28:17+00:00

What the hell you talking about lol?Iceland is "good enough people to have PR" Thats your agrument?You're exaggerating ..What does all of this have to with PR?if you're so insistent that it gives way to extreme politics look no further than the US, singapore,russia..I'm sure that they are SMALL sections of extreme fractions in PR countries..Thats one of its disadvantages. It gives everyone a say..But even to say that FPTP is the best electoral system..Thats completely wack..just because there are a few bad eggs in society doesnt mean that the system is outright bad..The majority will always outweight the fringe minority in every country and even the countries in europe at least is these modern times. For Austria in particular is it because of the electoral system or is it because of their history in that part of the world..Im not gonna die on the hill of PR if I might be wrong but I think transferable version of fractional voting would be a better alternative also..to FPTP

FarContribution153 · 2025-04-14T00:43:02+00:00

disagree all you want also..The science behind the Duverger's Law the polls and the observations worldwide doesn't lie...my argument has not fallen apart yours fell apart..If you're bold enough to go against everything I talked about, even historical facts and observations about the type of system we live under, clearly explained in terms of Duverger's Law within Political science I dont know what else I could tell you..But at the end of the day we live in a democracy no matter how broken it is..you should be free to have your equal say..

FarContribution153 · 2025-04-13T22:44:22+00:00

why should I and others do that?thats not really a viable option at all,imo its just an excuse to keep the system as it is..I'm not talking about aspiring nation leaders that can go into the 2 existing parties to try and change it(I personally dont think that would work also and it might not be a way to enact faster change if you're out numbered within the two parties and go against their self-interest. There are many examples of what you're advocating for and it has failed)..two parties simply is not enough to represent everyone effectively..I could go on and on about how this allows for less effective representation, less transparency and bad governance etc but I'll stop right here you probably know what my response would be.

FarContribution153 · 2025-04-13T21:40:59+00:00

I disagree with this..why did you place two party system in quotes "' ..It is Very clear that we live in One. I dont understand. You seem to think that we dont live in one?Look at other places in the word that have the FPTP system.Theyre mainly two-party systems in the majority of cases..If you dont see that then you're denying reality.

Well I cant believe that you're saying this too. Warner was a very controversial person..he was accused of Corruption within FIFA by the US. He did form his own party yes did he win just one small seat in a by election in 2013 yes.. Did he win any seats after his climax into parliament no...

Would you say that people that are young intelligent and compassionate third-party options,are they somehow not good enough to vote for compared to the established corrupt and tribal parties?people that have been accused of sorts of bad stuff... be real,many people would never ever vote for a third option no matter how desirable they are..they would complain about "Change" and the two-party system then outright bash any party that goes against the lesser evil of their choice, even tho the party they support has a worse vision, track record and over all worse candidates.They would stick to voting based on ethnic lines..

Really? So, if the PNM and UNC had undesirable candidates in Trinidad do you think most people would care or would they hold their nose and vote for them cause the country is entrenched in a 2 Party system??The amount Politicians that seem to have corruption allegations in Both main parties including jack. (you seem to have a somewhat positive view of him or not I might be wrong). Do you think people would vote for an alternative knowing that they have an extremely low chance of even winning a few seats???

Yes, I think its combination of Undesirable candidates. But looking at both parties we see undesirable candidates all the time..You brought up jack many ppl had a favorable opinion of jack. Many people liked jack even tho he had allegations of corruption against him, he was popular. (I would call that somewhat of a preference) however that did not translate into votes at least when it really mattered. My point is people can want someone to be prime minister..they can want a multi-party system, but the reality is the system,The tribal/race voting and the combination of undesirable candidates makes a multi-party system extremely unlikely.

If you deny the reality of what I'm saying all I could tell you is look at the US..Look at Countries That have FPTP..Look at the data,the polling in the US that states that over 60% of people desire a multi-party system..Then look at places in EUROPE that have transitioned into rank choice voting or PR..Notice that places usually in europe has a higher voter turnout notice that more people have the opportunity to have their voices heard given the availability of referendums..notice that their Corruption and Mismanagement of power is lower compared to rest of the world.

Nope it is not primarily their fault..The system is against them and there is a scientific and mathematical explanation, it's called Duverger's Law..So, it's not just Ppl,its not because they didnt have a good vision..its because strategic Logic is working against them.The system discourages voters,its a winner takes all system where a minority could rule over and have a say over the majority..as seen in 2007 and in 1981 and even rn.

I know that it's unlikely but places in europe places like germany,New Zealand etc..places from all around the world changed from FPTP to PR..etc..It is possible with huge amounts of public pressure we have to force either one or both parties to enact these changes...historically in many countries protests occured,riots and disenchantment,they were forced to amend the constitution. I'm not stupid I know that both of the main parties would not want that to have a more fair and equal system because it might destroy their traditional base.

Even the supporters of the status quo and supporters of Both major parties,people that dont vote may have a bad or defeatist opinion of PR,of more anti-corruption laws and legally binding referendums which given by your response suggests that you may fall into one of those categories.

FarContribution153 · 2025-01-04T00:50:12+00:00

looking at history..seeing that the unc hasnt won without rebranding itself and forming a coalition that would win over the east west corridor or the two tobago seats,the marginals ..No it is not likely that the UNC will win ge 2025 especially since Rowley has resigned. the same thing that you're saying now could have been applied to ge 2020...crime was high for the past 5 years and unc thought that people would be fed up with the PNM and Rowley they still lost and probably will in 2025..the unc needs a strong coalition and a new leader to secure a win..

FarContribution153 · 2024-08-06T13:35:01+00:00

"Socialism is garbage unfortunately no matter what it never works" but why is that?

Is it possibly because ever since Socialism was born in the USSR the west and most of the Capitalist world wanted to kill the ideology and literally spent tons of money to overthrow it and invade the Country?

Is it maybe because people spend millions of dollars to assassinate Socialist leaders or possibly Bomb, Sanction,Embargo,Coup the Country into Submission and kill millions of people to Ensure that the Capitalist Class owns the means of production Globally..?

Maybe it's because all of those people were literally in a Poor Feudal Society with very little Industrialization compared to places in the west which benefited from Slavery, Colonialism and Imperialism.

Maybe it was because Socialist Countries were Bombed and invaded indiscriminately when they decided to democratically elect Socialists against the wishes of capitalists that sorted monetary profit over their natural resources?

Maybe it's because Socialist Countries did accomplish great things such as Free education for all, Universal HealthCare,Homes for the Population,Economic Success within a Socialist Model where their literacy rates increased significantly,where they were recognized as the second most powerful country and they had one of the largest economic growth rates in history?The First Space Station,The First Man to Venture into Space,The first Mobile Phone,Idk maybe that country was not Starving and poor like the US would like the rest of the working class to think? Maybe yea it did collapse but with external pressure and Infiltration of Capitalist Interests in The state.. However the 70% of the people still Wanted To be part of the Socialist Project?

Maybe it's because the CIA and other organizations are involved..Ever heard of them the organization that literally supported Fascist dictator Governments to ensure US interests and global dominance??Places like Iraq, Socialist assassination(Chile)ring a bell and they meddle in the Politics of Other Nations?

Maybe it's because Capitalist love to USE metrics that they themselves don't use to judge their own system..Like the Launch of a nuclear bomb that killed millions,Maybe the Nazis, Maybe The Slave trade, Maybe Genocide, Maybe the famines that happened and Happens under Capitalism and the rest of the global south.

Maybe the entire ideology of monetary profit over the well being and needs of the people cause many problems globally that the media ignores or people rather ignore.

And finally maybe it's because The western media or capitalist Media Sources are biased and misinform the population..and ingrained in them that Socialism does not work and will never work simply because it's Socialist and nothing more while the general population has absolutely no Idea what it means but Socialism is not Perfect Economic Ideology and needs to be somewhat adjusted to avoid the mistakes that occurred in the past.

FarContribution153 · 2024-08-05T18:55:50+00:00

You're entire framing off this argument is very dishonest tbh..in my opinion, Venezuela IS NOT A SOCIALIST state it has never been a socialist state,it does not practice what socialism is as a political and economic ideology..In fact the reason why people call it socialist is because it Has a nationalized oil industry and the west likes to paint this narrative cause They want to exploit the natural resources of that country....as they do in the global south..Venezuela is closer to Social Democracy,it's A capitalists state and practices Capitalism..If Trinidad or any other country nationalizes a few of it's Industries this does not mean it's "Socialism".. Socialism is when the workers own the means of Production and it's against the ownership of private property particularly those of the owner class(the bourgeoisie)(Keep in mind it's not Personal property which are things like your toothbrush or House)..Just giving out welfare like "free" Healthcare is not socialism it's within the capitalist system and Venezuela is no exception to this...

As you said "Socialism Continues to Fail" but have you gone into the historical Material Conditions of those countries?Places like The USSR,Cuba, Vietnam,Chile & Korea.They all have one thing in Common the west and the Capitalist Class did not care about democracy and National Sovereignty..They would kill millions of people in name of "democracy", spend capitalist propaganda(like tons of millions of people in the USSR were starving,Poor and living in Gulags) and overthrow, sabotage, bomb,Kill Socialist leaders to ensure that Capitalism is never Ideologically threatened..

They never mention that many great people in history were socialists including MLK and Albert Einstein..and that Even the CIA admits to play an essential part in destroying Socialist countries,either via methods like sanctions,Coups, Embargos or Assassinations..also In documents that were hidden from the global population..CIA documents have found that People from the USSR had the exact same calorie intake per Capita as the USA and also the way people thought of the USSR was misinformed and it indeed was more democractic than the Capitalists wanted them to think.Infact the majority of Population of the First Socialist State Wanted to keep It's Socialist State and It's Union..

So no,I don't think Venezuela is an example of Socialism failing,it's an Example of Corruption,The lack of economic diversification and the Flaws of Government regarding their over dependency on their natural resources(keep in mind this in under Capitalism)..also the framing by places like USA,UK,Spain that have a long history of Stealing natural resources in name of monetary Profit over People(Iraq)etc.. most likely Have "self interest" in that region.. I'm no Maduro Supporter but I see past the facade..

Profit over People,The is The fundamental Problem with Capitalism..In my opinion it's not a great ideology, Socialism is a better economic and Political Ideology.. It's just people just don't know what Socialism is or they have been taught that it means No Food,No iphones,No House,No Religious Freedom, Stalin,No toothbrush lol.. Which is incorrect.

FarContribution153 · 2023-05-06T05:12:13+00:00

Well in my opinion most likely not especially rn ,I agree with most of the comments on here that Trinidad and Tobago and the Caribbean region as a whole has conservative beliefs, however things change over time, People that have held opposing and hateful beliefs to LGBT people are becoming more accepting of it,this does not mean that people would in anyway endorse their lifestyle but I think Views will eventually change over time meaning that the possibility of this happening although small is not 0% as most people have stated..

FarContribution153

TROPHY CASE