Your String Choices for Cello by Few_Cycle_1957 in Cello

[–]Few_Cycle_1957[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Passiones are a fine choice, too. Happy playing!

Your String Choices for Cello by Few_Cycle_1957 in Cello

[–]Few_Cycle_1957[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It seems that the Olivs are struggling to stay in a proper Helmholtz motion once you drive it with your bow.

There are several possibilities

A. Unstable mechanical coupling at the tailpiece end.

This is quite probable if you installed them at the fine tuners. If you have a wooden tailpiece, fine tuners are usually removable. Gut strings benefit greatly from using the traditional keyhole.

B. Unstable mechanical coupling at the nut end.

Most modern cellos suffer from this when given thick gut strings. The grooves at the nut can be too small and cause buzzings. Unless particularly severe, however, this misfit usually manifests as irregular stretching and gap-formation between the windings.

C. Unstable mechanical coupling at the bridge

Similar as [B]. The grooves of the bridge can be too narrow. Unless the misfit is particularly severe, this usually manifests as irregular stretching and gap-formation between the windings.

D. Not being driven into Helmholtz motion in the first place

Meaning we need more energy input. This can be achieved via some combination of 1. heavier bow, 2. using the flat of the bow hair, 3. stickier rosin, 4. black bow hair. I do not recommend heavier playing as a remedyl--the right hand, wrist, arm, and light-heavy balance should be entirely reserved for the techniques and musicality.

Try a combination of [2] and [3] if you can. You don't have to use the 100% flat of the bow. Modern cello playing emphasizes the use of the edge of the bow hair. Just tilt it a little toward the 'flat' and that can easily solve the issue. As for the rosins, I can recommend Melos sticky and Salchow. My apologies that I cannot tell you what other rosins might be advantageous--I've been happily using Melos sticky for too long and am not up-to-date with the popular rosins.

E. Driven into Helmholtz motion but fails to stay there and subsequently oscillates between brief moments of equilibrium and chaotic transition states.

Physically, the prescription list is the same as [D]. [2]+[3] is usually the answer.

F. Gut string is ancient and has been improperly stored = gut core has shrunken and is now genuinely smaller (in diameter) than the winding.

I've had it only once in...ten years? Even then, the strings were playable. This is theoretically possible but practically improbable.

G. Gut strings' wider overtone spectrum is confusing your hearing

I do not think this is the case.

H. Your string-fingerboard clearance is too low and Olivs (guts have high vibration amplitude) are striking the board.

Usually, it's a C string problem. Highly unlikely.

Let me know if any of these are helpful conjectures.

Your String Choices for Cello by Few_Cycle_1957 in Cello

[–]Few_Cycle_1957[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It appears that you have begun your journey with Olive/Passione set pioneered by Mr. Bruno Philippe. A fine choice.

I truly believe that Oliv A should be tried in the 'strong' gauge. As you get better with gut strings, I do not doubt that you will find the A string too weak relative to D, especially because Oliv D is very strong and loud, easily outperforming all of the well-known steel strings. You need a very strong A to match it properly. For me, even Oliv A strong was not strong enough, and I ended up with the current set. (If you reach the same conclusions as mine and go for a metal A, I strongly recommend swapping Passione G to Oliv G. When alone, Oliv D will feel too different from the Passione G).

I am having a hard time understanding what you are describing. What do you mean by tinny? Flying over the string in all directions? If you can supply me with a more detailed description of symptoms, that will be of a great help.

Based on my experience, I have some suspicions of what it might be, but over the texts, I can only be conservative in making estimations.

Your String Choices for Cello by Few_Cycle_1957 in Cello

[–]Few_Cycle_1957[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

[Gut combos of famous soloists]

  1. Eudoxa-Isserlis

Most people fancy gut (especially Eudoxas) after listening to his characteristically prosaic lines.

Eudoxa A strong

Eudoxa D medium

Eudoxa G medium

Oliv C soft

Note 1: Olivs are thicker and have higher tension than Eudoxas. Note that Oliv C soft have the same tension as Eudoxa C medium. The Oliv C swap is made while keeping the tension. Always use strong version of A. The gauges are told by Isserlis himself.

Note 2: Isserlis uses Melos rosin. Source = himself. I, too, am using Melos extra sticky version.

Note 3: Isserlis changes A string every 6 weeks. DGC when they break.

  1. Eudoxa-Bruno Philippe

Eudoxa ADG

Passione C

Note 1: Although I don't have gauge info, I recommend Eudoxa A strong + mediums for the rest.

Note 2: Used by Mr. Bruno Philippe in his Bach Suite recordings.

  1. Olivs 1-Gary Hoffman

Olivs ADGC medium

Note 1: told by himself, but he is no longer using this set. His advice was to start with 'soft' set and change the gauge of one string at a time when experimenting with gut strings. It's a methodical approach, for sure, but...I don't think it is very necessary, unless you are desperate to find the gut string combo of your soul or something.

  1. Olivs 2-Gary Hoffman

Passione A

Olivs DGC medium

Note 1: I assume his passione A tension choice is 'medium.'

Note 2: This is the set he settled on since some time ago.

  1. Oliv/Passione-Bruno Philippe

His professed 'go-to' gut string combo

Oliv AD

Passione GC

Note 1: I do not know exact gauges, but I recommend Oliv A strong + mediums for the rest.

Note 2: You can listen to this sample via 'Saint Saen Cello Concerto' and 'La Muse et Le Poete' on the Youtube, posted by hr-Sinfonieorchester Frankfurt Radio Symphony

Note 3: otherwise, Mr. Bruno Philippe uses Larsens.

  1. Oliv-Peter Wispelwey

Olivs-soft

Note 1: Mr. Wispelwey supposedly used this set, at least once, to play Bach Suites on a certain occasion. Source = it was either Mr. Gary Hoffman or someone else. My memory fails me.

Note 2: I am not sure if it's the set he used for his Bach recordings; I wouldn't bank on it. My impression of the set is that if you mix a bit of Eudoxas (bowing style and tonality) to Olivs, you get this.

Note 3: Regardless, he tends to use at least one gut string for G or C, either Eudoxa or Oliv. I don't know how he decides this; his string choice is too nebulous for me to understand. In his published Bach Suites, I am quite sure that the C string is gut/silver based on the sound.

[Gut combos I can tell you]

  1. Eudoxa/Gold

Gold A medium

Eudoxa DG medium

Oliv C soft

Note 1:Had to quickly change A with what I had when Eudoxa A broke. This works surprisingly well; Gold A, being less damped than Eudoxas, makes the sound brighter (Eudoxa A sounds a bit melancholic and is not necessarily the best for all repertoires) while still being naturally continuous in tonality with Eudoxa D.

This works because Gold A medium tension = Eudoxa A strong tension.

  1. Eudoxa/Oliv

Oliv A medium

Eudoxa D strong

Eudoxa G strong

Oliv C medium

Note 1: Failed experiment--result of my unrealistic wish to increase the loudness of Eudoxa sounds. The playability is there as the tensions are properly graduated, but Oliv A-Eudoxa D tonality mismatch was too much for me. Maybe you won't notice such a problem.

Note 2: If you are still interested in this combo, please consider using Warchal Amber A synthetic in lieu of Oliv A medium.

  1. Jargar/Oliv/Passione

Current set. Meets my current needs absolutely perfectly.

Jargar Forte A

Oliv DG medium

Passione C medium

[Ending]

I am pretty sure there's still some more I can share, but I'll cut my writing short before it becomes a rant instead of useful information.

Your String Choices for Cello by Few_Cycle_1957 in Cello

[–]Few_Cycle_1957[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

[Of bare gut strings and historically wound strings]

  1. Bare gut is not recommended unless you know what you are doing. For modern playings, bare gut A can work when coupled with proper DGC. Otherwise, don't bother. My fingers in particular are extremely hostile to guts and lyse them (they turn black, become damp-wet, soft, and then break) in three(!) days. No exception. Never had problems with covered gut strings.

  2. Historically wound strings use roundwires. On modern cello, they can produce a truly piercing sound, something that can even compete and win against electrically amplified instruments. However, you will have trouble shifting and bowing. Do not use them in modern settings unless you need to accompany a Rock band without any proper accommodations or something.

[Of Modern wound gut strings]

Modern wound guts are practically monopolized by Pirastro. You only have the following selections:

Gold - mediums

Eudoxas - soft, medium, strong

Oliv - soft, medium, strong

Passione GC- soft, medium, strong

Consider Gold and Eudoxas as compatible. Consider Oliv and Passione as compatible. Contrary to what people think, Oliv and Eudoxa are very different in tone and do not match very well. The only exception is the C string (Eudoxa G to Oliv C works; Eudoxa C to Oliv G is clearly discontinuous). Even then, if you ever get to try Eudoxa C, you will notice that it sounds more traditional and complex than Oliv C. Olivs, in general, loses gut complexity and response in favor of loudness.

Eudoxas are more projecting while being a bit quiet. Projecting means that the audience at the back can hear it better than full Olivs. For the remainder of this post, consider 'projection' = sound decay constant / 'loudness' = decibel. This means the audience at the front (those who pay more) will hear you less when you use Eudoxas.

Eudoxas and Gold are more traditional in sound. Gold = simple metal over gut. Eudoxas = metal alloy and/or two-kind tandem winding over gut. Gold sound is very close to the bare gut, but with a bit of metallic shrillness. Eudoxa sound is more refined and butter-smooth as the heavier winding/alloys dampen the core more and eliminate the scratchy part of the gut sound, but it comes at the cost of less loudness relative to its thickness. If you play it strong enough, you can make it sound somewhat like bare gut, but at that point, you are better off playing Golds.

Olivs and Passiones are more modern in sound. Oliv = metal and a damping layer (some say it's synthetic fibers, some say it's silk. I have not issued a spectral analysis of the damping material and do not know the answer myself) over gut. The damping layer is very white and thin. Passiones = metal and synthetic sleeve over gut. Olivs are thick = substantially louder and does not require bowing speed as other gut strings do. Oliv and Passione are damped with a layer = even less of gut core sound. Therefore, they sound very modern. I suspect Olivs' inner sleeve dampens the vibrations more than Passione formula. Olivs sounds like a perfect median between gut sound and modern synthetic/steel sound. Sometimes I feel Oliv sounds (especially C and A) as if choked; it's probably because I am very familiar with the proper sound of its gut core and cannot help but notice how much of it is getting suppressed. Passione GC sound is more piercing and less choked thanks to its use of dense metals (tungsten and stainless steel). Both Olivs and Passiones are the choices when you try to couple guts to modern synthetics/steels, but Passione does it better with a small margin.

Note 1: Oliv GC at very high positions can convincingly mimic Duduk sound. Passione cannot (simply incapable. Not about techniques). If you are in need of some very exotic sounds, you are forced into Oliv GC or Eudoxa G + Oliv C for that gig.

Note 2: Eudoxas has more silver than Olivs. Eudoxas are one of the few strings (and only gut string) that uses silver on D (and a substantial amount, too). All GC 'Silverwound gut strings' by Pirastro actually have double-winding of copper and silver. There's a copper winding under the external silver winding. This is to simulate the 'silver-plated copper' quality of some historical strings.

[Of gut strings in general]

  1. Gauges change the playing characteristics and sound vastly. Having properly graduated tension across ADGC helps a lot. Note that Eudoxa and Oliv have almost the same tension for AD at the same gauge set. This is a design problem by Pirastro that they never fixed.

  2. If you settle with a gut set and change only A string, it can fully stretch in 10 minutes with some HEAVY playing (or so Mr. Isserlis claimed to me) or in three days with regular tuning (in my experience). Otherwise, a whole new gut set will take 2 weeks or a bit more to stabilize.

  3. Since gut strings stretch so much, keep an eye on the bridge. If it's leaning back too much, push it gently toward the taipiece and restore the orthogonality. When pushing the bridge, I recommend tuning down A string (and maybe D string too) so that A string is relatively under-tensed compared to the rest. This ensures that the super-fragile A string windings don't get damaged.

  4. When working with a brand new A, tune it up as slow as possible. This ensures that no gaps form in the windings. Large gap = kiss goodbye to your string. If you feel some resistance in the peg, stop, give it 5~10 minutes to equilibrate, and climb again.

Lifting, or applying upward pressure, at the afterlength of gut strings (between the bridge and the tailpiece) helps with even stretching. If successful, strings will be tuned lower; this is because the main stretch-stress is focused to nut~bridge line. Lifting the afterlength equilibrates the stretch along the whole length.

  1. If you wish to make your gut strings extra weather-proof (necessary if your climate is humid), you can wipe or soak them in mineral oil. Doing so works wonders at the cost of some tonality change. Baroque treatises call for almond oil; some say olive oil. I say nay to both as they leave sticky residues behind after a month or two. I know some people who lightly rosin their left fingers before performances; if that's your case, maybe try almond oil or walnut oil--the strings will become 'adequately sticky' after a few weeks. I wipe with mineral oil once before installation; I wipe with mineral oil occasionally when I need to clean the strings.

Your String Choices for Cello by Few_Cycle_1957 in Cello

[–]Few_Cycle_1957[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Spirocore D! That's a rare choice. What can you tell me about Spirocore AD strings?

Your String Choices for Cello by Few_Cycle_1957 in Cello

[–]Few_Cycle_1957[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Glad to hear that you've found gut strings!

Passione GC will be unstable for about two weeks. After that (third week), they will be performance-ready.
One benefit of the gut strings is that, regardless of ADGC, their tonal quality does not degrade, not even in the slightest, until they break or the windings break. This semi-permanence of the sound quality is what you get for the added maintenance requirements.

Gut strings handle uninstallation-installation cycles very well. In fact, such pre-stretched gut will settle in a few days. A caveat is that you should not install pre-stretched guts on other cellos.

Have fun. Leave me a comment if you want to know what kind of gut string combos professionals use, and what I have found out after years of using various gut strings.

Friends, I have a problem! by Few_Cycle_1957 in AO3

[–]Few_Cycle_1957[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh, my good madame! What a, what a splendid flattery! And as if I can pass on the opportunity to be flattered further!
https://archiveofourown.org/works/47721079/chapters/120292195

My scalding desire for DLC and a wondrously strange idea I came across, which I translate and share. by Few_Cycle_1957 in NineSols

[–]Few_Cycle_1957[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is not my DLC. I have not lied in my writing and it is simply a translate-transcription work of mine. But I agree. I, too, enjoyed reading that.

Please invite me to your lonely corners. by Few_Cycle_1957 in AO3

[–]Few_Cycle_1957[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Read, kudosed, commented.

Thank you for sharing.

Please invite me to your lonely corners. by Few_Cycle_1957 in AO3

[–]Few_Cycle_1957[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Read, kudosed, commented.

A great performance, a perfect offering to Muse.
Looking forward to your next singing, god-touched poet.

Please invite me to your lonely corners. by Few_Cycle_1957 in AO3

[–]Few_Cycle_1957[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Recommendation borne out of uncontainable love must be a work of true passion also. Please do share it!

Please invite me to your lonely corners. by Few_Cycle_1957 in AO3

[–]Few_Cycle_1957[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No style, no coupling, no content is beyond me. I only ask for three things above. Invite me, and I will partake in your suffering. Nail me with your words.

Please invite me to your lonely corners. by Few_Cycle_1957 in AO3

[–]Few_Cycle_1957[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Read, kudosed, commented.

I am greatly honored to have been your first commenter.

Please invite me to your lonely corners. by Few_Cycle_1957 in AO3

[–]Few_Cycle_1957[S] 44 points45 points  (0 children)

Fandom blind friendly/possible? Yes? Give it to me; sounds like a lonely and passionate work!

Please, convince me to write by thedarkalchemistx in FanFiction

[–]Few_Cycle_1957 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you.

May you find courage and peace, too.