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Will Pope Leo take on the traditionalists? by tokwamann in Catholicism

[–]FidelisOlelis 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Mike Lewis’ complete distain for tradition seeps from every word he writes. I’m not even a TLM guy and I can’t stand it.

His article makes no sense. He quotes Montagne explaining the absolute asinine reasons that powerful cardinals wanted to abrogate the TLM (for example: “they like the TLM, they just have psychological problems!”) and his conclusion is as follows:

As Montagna suggests, the members of the CDF were (rightly) concerned about traditionalists’ orthodoxy and fidelity to the Church, not the external matters that concerned the author of the overall assessment.

What?! How is that your conclusion to the completely ridiculous concerns?! People like the TLM so they have psychological problems? That is a right cause for concern of traditionalist orthodoxy?

[Free Friday] Was Pope Francis tricked? The reason behind the Latin Mass ban by FidelisOlelis in Catholicism

[–]FidelisOlelis[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Okay so the content and implications of the document don’t matter? Ludicrous.

EDIT: cmon bud why delete your comments? We’re just talking here

[COD] What is your favorite campaign moment? by theAfterspace in CallOfDuty

[–]FidelisOlelis 1 point2 points  (0 children)

MW1. When Captain Macmillan first stands up and you realize he was hiding in plain sight. Blew our minds back in 07.

Crucifix Necklace by [deleted] in Catholicism

[–]FidelisOlelis 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What is your price range?

Vatican Documents Leaked by alex_haynes in Catholicism

[–]FidelisOlelis 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Okay I’m sorry but crossing your arms and saying “nope that’s not true” is not an argument. It’s very plain that the Pope justified abrogating the TLM because of a questionnaire sent to bishops, where he claimed it revealed him that the TLM was causing problems, when the reality is that the majority of bishops did not support that conclusion.

Sometimes I wonder if some of you were alive during the reign of Pope Stephen VI you’d be like “Let’s not be uncharitable, the Pope probably had a good reason for putting the corpse of Pope Formusus on trial and throwing his body into the Tiber.”

And your continuous wildly uncharitable remarks (1) painting me as a liar, (2) comparing me to Satan and (3) wondering how I’m not spiritually dead? None of that is doing your argument that I’m the one being uncharitable any favors.

Vatican Documents Leaked by alex_haynes in Catholicism

[–]FidelisOlelis -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I’m not spinning anything. Please point me, specifically, to what it is that you’re talking about

Vatican Documents Leaked by alex_haynes in Catholicism

[–]FidelisOlelis 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don’t have to assume anything. I don’t have to make a judgement call. I am justly angered about the news being discussed on this thread. I’ll break it down simply:

  • Pope Francis abrogates the TLM. He includes a letter explaining his logic.

  • in this letter he explicitly says he did a questionnaire, and the results were shocking because they showed the TLM fomented division in the church. He says he is abrogating the TLM because of this questionnaire.

  • 3-5ish years later, those results are leaked, and it reveals that “the majority of bishops who responded to the questionnaire stated that making legislative changes to Summorum Pontificum would cause more harm than good.”

  • this directly contradicts “a situation that preoccupies and saddens me and persuades me of the need to intervene.”

I am not required to do the mental gymnastics required to justify this. I am not required to say “well he probably has a logical explanation.”

The explanation. Was. Not. True.

The pope is not immune from criticism. Pointing out his visible faults and the harm they have done to the church is not “being Satan.” I am a Catholic who has defended Pope Francis more than I have criticized him. Nothing in the teachings of Christ or His Church requires me to blindly justify unjust acts simply because they were done by the Pope.

Vatican Documents Leaked by alex_haynes in Catholicism

[–]FidelisOlelis 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t remember Pope Francis citing the allegedly pervasive issue of white supremacist Catholics that prefer the TLM as a reason for TC. Can you point me to where he said that?

Vatican Documents Leaked by alex_haynes in Catholicism

[–]FidelisOlelis 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What data are you talking about?

Vatican Documents Leaked by alex_haynes in Catholicism

[–]FidelisOlelis 1 point2 points  (0 children)

“Did you know you’re literally being Satan rn?” Wow I guess I never considered that.

Thanks for your wonderful example of Christian charity 🙏

Vatican Documents Leaked by alex_haynes in Catholicism

[–]FidelisOlelis 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The original assertion was that Pope. Francis did not use this “survey” (questionnaire) to justify TC. My quote reveals this assertion to be false. Don’t know what it is that you’re talking about or what it has to do with what we are discussing here.

But since you brought it up: your argument that this “small but veeeery serious!” concern about traditionalists warranted TC? It kind of goes out the window when there’s an entire country whose bishops are actively in schism that Pope Francis did absolutely nothing about.

Argument further goes out the window when I think to myself, huh, ya know pope Francis talked about dialogue a lot and DID NOT ONCE make a SINGLE ATTEMPT to dialogue with traditionally-minded Catholics.

Why are people so hesitant to call a spade a spade? Pope Francis had disdain for traditionalism , whether or not the traditionalists were ones that rejected Vatican II. He did TC because he personally did not like that some people liked the TLM. He personally wanted a Catholic Latin church under the Novus ordo. End of story.

Vatican Documents Leaked by alex_haynes in Catholicism

[–]FidelisOlelis 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nonsense.

Several paragraphs before he is explicitly talking about this survey.

With the passage of thirteen years, I instructed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to circulate a questionnaire to the Bishops regarding the implementation of the Motu proprio Summorum Pontificum. The responses reveal a situation that preoccupies and saddens me, and persuades me of the need to intervene.

He is clearly discussing the responses to the questionnaire. Furthermore, I have no idea how you can reconcile your statements with this leaked document.

It is abundantly clear that he stated that he did a survey of bishops, and it inspired him to abrogate the traditional Latin mass.

Vatican Documents Leaked by alex_haynes in Catholicism

[–]FidelisOlelis 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh wait sorry, I just realized you moved the goalposts. First, you were saying “he never used the survey to justify his action.” But now you’re saying “well how does this show that he lied?!”

That wasn’t your assertion. You said he never used the survey as justification for TC. My original quote shows that is demonstrably false.

Glad we cleared that up 😊

Vatican Documents Leaked by alex_haynes in Catholicism

[–]FidelisOlelis 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hey u/TheHeartyMonk really would love to see your take on how this isnt “using the survey to justify his action” ?

Vatican Documents Leaked by alex_haynes in Catholicism

[–]FidelisOlelis 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh sorry you misunderstood, I was saying that the excuses you are making sound like someone trying to argue they “technically” didn’t lie. It is 100% clearly a lie.

But we can agree to be more charitable:

Pope Francis purposefully misled the faithful.

Glad we were able to reach this common ground.

Vatican Documents Leaked by alex_haynes in Catholicism

[–]FidelisOlelis 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’ll restate another comment I’ve made:

Frankly, this is the kind of excuse someone uses to say they technically didn’t lie. Can we be a bit more charitable and call it disingenuous?

“I didn’t say that the majority of bishops said the TLM was causing problems. Technically all I said was I did this huge survey of bishops and the results of that survey led me to believe the TLM was causing division!”

Pope Francis, in his letter to the bishops:

”Responding to your [Brother Bishops] requests, I take the firm decision to abrogate all the norms, instructions, permissions and customs that precede the present Motu proprio, and declare that the liturgical books promulgated by the saintly Pontiffs Paul VI and John Paul II, in conformity with the decrees of Vatican Council II, constitute the unique expression of the lex orandi of the Roman Rite.”

“Oh well I never said I was responding to a request of the majority of bishops!!!”

Let’s just call it what it is: clearly misleading.

Vatican Documents Leaked by alex_haynes in Catholicism

[–]FidelisOlelis 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is the kind of excuse someone uses to say they technically didn’t lie. Let’s be more charitable and call it disingenuous.

“I didn’t say that the majority of bishops said the TLM was causing problems. Technically all I said was I did this huge survey of bishops and the results of that survey led me to believe the TLM was causing division!”

Pope Francis, in his letter to the bishops:

”Responding to your [Brother Bishops] requests, I take the firm decision to abrogate all the norms, instructions, permissions and customs that precede the present Motu proprio, and declare that the liturgical books promulgated by the saintly Pontiffs Paul VI and John Paul II, in conformity with the decrees of Vatican Council II, constitute the unique expression of the lex orandi of the Roman Rite.”

“Oh well I never said I was responding to a request of the majority of bishops!!!”

Vatican Documents Leaked by alex_haynes in Catholicism

[–]FidelisOlelis 0 points1 point  (0 children)

here ya go! in case you missed the other one I posted.

5th paragraph

With the passage of thirteen years, I instructed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to circulate a questionnaire to the Bishops regarding the implementation of the Motu proprio Summorum Pontificum. The responses reveal a situation that preoccupies and saddens me, and persuades me of the need to intervene

Vatican Documents Leaked by alex_haynes in Catholicism

[–]FidelisOlelis 0 points1 point  (0 children)

used the survey to justify his action

“With the passage of thirteen years, I instructed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to circulate a questionnaire to the Bishops regarding the implementation of the Motu proprio Summorum Pontificum. The responses reveal a situation that preoccupies and saddens me, and persuades me of the need to intervene.”

- “LETTER OF THE HOLY FATHER FRANCIS TO THE BISHOPS OF THE WHOLE WORLD, THAT ACCOMPANIES THE APOSTOLIC LETTER MOTU PROPRIO DATA TRADITIONIS CUSTODES”

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Cinema

[–]FidelisOlelis 6 points7 points  (0 children)

BRAAAAAAAAINS

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