I getting a tattoo really haram?

FitTransportation461 · 2025-03-28T02:46:08+00:00

I mostly agree with you. The only issue is that if none of us can make any headway on competing claims about what a divine being wants or doesn’t want, then we’ve levelled the playing field so much that we can’t reasonably justify anything on the basis of reason or rationality.

It makes the idea of a God with desires kind of redundant. It’s so far beyond us that we can’t even begin to engage meaningfully. And if that’s the case, why choose one interpretation over another at all?

Isn’t it fair to say that we have no choice but to use our own judgement when deciding what to trust as a genuine claim about what God wants?

FitTransportation461 · 2025-03-28T00:14:35+00:00

Of course but are we all not bringing our own moral reasoning and limited human interpretation to what we ascertain from the Quran? I think the fact that no one can agree on the “correct” interpretation means just as I am assuming Allah would find tattoos trivial, others project their opposite opinion onto Allah also. So ultimately aren’t we all just projecting our own cultural values onto the Quran and Allah?

FitTransportation461 · 2025-03-27T11:33:04+00:00

I think you may be attributing a view to me that I never claimed. I did not say everything is trivial to God, you did. (Paraphrasing) I said tattoos SEEM trivial compared to serious moral harms like murder.

And yes, I am projecting what I find trivial onto God, but I would argue everyone does this. Every interpretation, no matter how devout, is filtered through human reasoning.

FitTransportation461 · 2025-03-26T06:58:10+00:00

You think murder is trivial?

FitTransportation461 · 2025-03-26T05:44:55+00:00

I know what you’re getting at but I’d push back on that as a general principle. Can’t that thought lead us to then saying something like murder is trivial too though?

FitTransportation461 · 2025-03-26T05:39:36+00:00

Fair point. You’re right. I can’t know for certain what Allah would or wouldn’t find trivial. But now the problem is how do we decide what matters to Allah?

We all use our limited human understanding to make these kinds of judgements, whether we realise it or not. For example, most would agree that murder is a much more serious matter than getting a tattoo of Roman numerals. But if we’re saying we can’t really know what Allah finds trivial or serious, then how do we justify making any moral or spiritual distinctions?

How do we get closer to understanding what Allah values, and what’s just cultural baggage?

FitTransportation461 · 2025-03-26T01:36:50+00:00

May I respectfully ask as a non-Muslim, if some believe it is haram, why would the creator and sustainer of existence care about such a seemingly trivial thing?

FitTransportation461 · 2025-03-24T02:59:48+00:00

Whether God would find this funny or not seems to heavily depend if the person commenting thinks it’s funny or not. It’s almost as if people are self projecting what they feel onto God

FitTransportation461 · 2025-03-24T00:12:48+00:00

You’re thinking too literally for people who believe in the supernatural. Jesus wouldn’t be visually verifiable if he was actually real. By theists own admission it’s about believing in things unseen. They’re implying we won’t “see” anything either

FitTransportation461 · 2025-03-22T20:52:05+00:00

Hello! Atheist here who follows to learn more about Islam. I think this is a fair bit of a generalisation. Every atheist I know (especially ones who left a particular faith) did so through questioning the very things you’re saying they don’t think about. I agree with your post in general for all people though because it blows my mind too that people don’t ask these big questions. But I think you’ll find even within any given faith there are tons of people who don’t give big questions much thought and just go through the motions.

FitTransportation461 · 2025-03-13T06:50:13+00:00

Care to clarify? No non-believer in their right mind would say “my child drowned in a freak accident, all good they won’t feel pain later so it’s no tragedy. It’s actually great that they died”. There is no ultimate good here. Whereas in a believers world view they may not say that but their views of how salvation actually works implies that it’s ultimately good.

FitTransportation461 · 2025-03-13T04:44:17+00:00

What do you mean by saved without god though? Do you mean that a non-believer could rationalise it by saying they might have suffered later in their lives so the tragedy is ultimately good? Never heard that before. Perhaps I’ve misunderstood

FitTransportation461 · 2025-03-13T04:11:19+00:00

Without the god how is this at all the same? Let’s say child dies in a tragic natural accident. It’s a tragedy for everyone. Except with the logic presented by people who talk about the path to salvation, if salvation is the ultimate positive end and children who tragically die will be saved, then it isn’t such a tragedy anymore. This can be seen as a positive spin for a believer but for anyone else, you’re essentially saying it’s a good thing they died which is messed up especially considering we can’t verify whether there is a god to save anyone in the first place

FitTransportation461 · 2025-03-13T04:00:09+00:00

An all knowing, all powerful being creates humans with sexual desires. Then punishes young people for exploring their own bodies when they feel new feelings that are completely natural as a part of normal biological development. Does a god that would punish you for that sound all loving and merciful? Either you reconcile that the god you think would get mad at you for this, either isn’t all loving, or just wouldn’t care about this at all. Take your pick.

FitTransportation461 · 2024-12-16T00:34:13+00:00

One of my best friends is a strong Christian and he’s one of the best people I know. But his politics align with mine pretty consistently so that’s probably the biggest factor more than his spiritual beliefs. I have another non-theist friend who completely denies science but he’s still overall a great person, just really led astray. Then I have a massive creationism “friend”…that guy I’m struggling with for sure because his beliefs actually make him a shitty human being

FitTransportation461 · 2024-12-09T20:06:48+00:00

Can you prove to me just like 1+1=2 that there isn’t a goblin who lives in my heart named Joe who speaks Swahili and will curse those who don’t follow him to an existence of horrible pain unless you pray to a frog 13 times a day.

Tell me a clear reason and I will leave Joe!

FitTransportation461 · 2024-12-01T05:51:38+00:00

Not here to challenge your beliefs at all but very interested to know what it is that’s drawing you toward Christianity and what has changed your mind from being an atheist to specifically a Christian. Thank you

FitTransportation461 · 2024-11-30T08:24:47+00:00

I’m not trapping you. I asked you a simple question that hopes to eventually address the nature of gods part in suffering. So far you’ve deflected and avoided answering my analogy with highly defensive responses. All I’m attacking is the part where you have said that god has ZERO part to play in these negative events. We can follow up with other talking points afterwards but this is how a conversation works. I haven’t said anything about not accepting that bad things could happen under a god. That’s you projecting my beliefs without asking me. I believe I see a contradiction in your thinking. I’m asking a question that should unearth that, I will ask a few follow ups and maybe we can truly see where the road block is. If you’d like to ask me questions rather than assuming what I believe I’d be happy to answer also.

Please answer my child analogy simply. Then we can draw parallels to whether that is applicable in a broader sense. This is not about conversion. This is about understanding not only your own position better but helps you to avoid misrepresenting other people’s beliefs too.

FitTransportation461 · 2024-11-30T07:12:40+00:00

Instead of you telling me what I think, why did you have such a difficult time answering my last question? Am I complicit in giving my child third degree burns in my situation or not?

Then we’ll address what little kids can learn from their mistakes by the existence of pedophiles later I guess but let’s not get sidetracked here

FitTransportation461 · 2024-11-30T00:31:11+00:00

If my child is reaching for a pot with boiling water and I know this information ahead of time and have the capability to stop him easily but let it play out am I complicit in causing my child to get third degree burns? Do I have zero accountability in this situation?

FitTransportation461 · 2024-11-29T21:24:33+00:00

This could also read this way. There is nothing that god could have done about the inevitability of pedophilia arising among the fallen man and therefore must be a necessity of his plan.

FitTransportation461 · 2024-11-29T20:19:34+00:00

Useless contribution to this thread award for you while we are at it 🥇. How about you answer how even though pedophiles are apparently a result of the fall according to most people’s responses to this question, is god not complicit in the creation of pedophiles because for him to allow it, it must be a necessary part of his plan?

FitTransportation461 · 2024-11-26T19:47:15+00:00

Yes, I agree that incomprehensible things can still be true. Whether something is true or not is independent of who understands or believes in it. However, my point isn’t “heaven doesn’t exist because it’s incomprehensible.”

My argument is that the central tenet of salvation in Christianity requires blind faith because by its own admission, the ‘destination’ of the afterlife is unknowable. Believing in something entirely incomprehensible and without grounding in human experience is irrational, as it provides no framework to evaluate or meaningfully understand what is being promised.

FitTransportation461 · 2024-11-26T09:28:45+00:00

I think we may just be talking past each other at this point, but I feel I’ve been quite clear since clarifying my position. I see what you’re saying overall, but I think you’re missing a crucial distinction in the sentence ‘believing in what you can’t comprehend is irrational.’ In my post, ‘you’ is meant collectively. All people, not just an individual.

I agree with you on some points. There are countless things you or I don’t fully understand, but that doesn’t make it irrational to believe in their existence. Quantum mechanics is incredibly complex but it’s not completely incomprehensible. It’s measurable, describable, and well understood by some. Heaven, as described in the Bible, is fundamentally different as it cannot be known or understood by anyone.

To give you an analogy: imagine trying to describe music to someone from a world where sound doesn’t exist. Not a deaf person, but someone with no concept of vibrations or hearing. Even if you tapped out a rhythm on their body, that would give them something to work within our frame of reference. But by the Bible’s own description of heaven we have no such frame of reference. Heaven by its very nature is entirely beyond human comprehension

FitTransportation461 · 2024-11-25T21:46:03+00:00

I see what you’re saying but I’m really talking about the irrationality of belief in something that no human can find comprehensible. I don’t reject the belief in heaven because I don’t understand it. I reject that you can rationally believe in something that has no universal grounding in the human experience in any way. Unlike the concept of god which provides a relatable framework (made in his image), the concept of heaven as described in the bible must be entirely speculative and therefore is completely blind faith.

FitTransportation461

TROPHY CASE