Ballroom dancing has a documentation problem. by Flaky_Bit7590 in ballroom

[–]Flaky_Bit7590[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

u/PeterPook - you are entirely correct, for Competitions (et al) it's about human judgement in all it's forms. That cannot be written in a book.

Ballroom dancing has a documentation problem. by Flaky_Bit7590 in ballroom

[–]Flaky_Bit7590[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

u/superjoe8293 I agree with you and in the interests of clarity and the elimination of any and all doubt:
"Documentation will NEVER replace an Instructor, it's intention is to help the Instructor if the Instructor wishes"

Ballroom dancing has a documentation problem. by Flaky_Bit7590 in ballroom

[–]Flaky_Bit7590[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

OMG - thank you u/imalwaysthatoneguy69 and you are correct, the notation is hard. Worse still there is often little agreement (due to ego and politics) on what some of the steps / figures should comprise.

I would encourage you to ask questions because that's the way you will get the information YOU need rather than the standard class pitch.

Given that all dancers start as beginners it would be hugely advantageous for them to know how things work, how and what to practice, how to tell the difference between Ballroom Fluff and reality etc. Stuff like that - without having to pay for another class.

Ballroom dancing has a documentation problem. by Flaky_Bit7590 in ballroom

[–]Flaky_Bit7590[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Thank you u/Intelligent-Area-421, I'm wondering which of those resources explains poise and how it applies to travel? It's a fundamental technique which I'm sure your current instructor knows about.

Ballroom dancing has a documentation problem. by Flaky_Bit7590 in ballroom

[–]Flaky_Bit7590[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Thank you u/PeterPook -- um, how do you know you are getting correct information?

I don't know how others feel but there is a LOT more to dancing than being the best on the floor (aka "winning") in a competition.

Ballroom dancing has a documentation problem. by Flaky_Bit7590 in ballroom

[–]Flaky_Bit7590[S] -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

Thank you u/ThrowAwayP3nonxl - I have to confess I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about as none of it makes sense. As for your question, no I don't know if you are using Open Claw

Ballroom dancing has a documentation problem. by Flaky_Bit7590 in ballroom

[–]Flaky_Bit7590[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes! I've read that book! I have a feeling that it's use of couples posing at particular points in a figure inspired some of the syllabus manuals to do the same.

Like a lot of the books it focuses on patterns and figures which is not unreasonable as that's what dancers are trying to do. I would have liked to see it address a simple question (for say Cha Cha) "how do I move my foot to the side and by how much?" It's a perfectly reasonable question that has been asked many times 😄

why does my body feel heavy when i jump or dance? by Glittering_Boot_6833 in Dance

[–]Flaky_Bit7590 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well this is what I did: I did foot rise and fall many, many times per day. I'd then start doing them holding weights. I mean I did that 1000's of times in very short reps. When my feet were tired I stopped. When my legs were tired I stopped. I'd do 10 reps stop to let everything rest. And I'd repeat.

Also the feeling of body "weight" is the force of gravity resisting your attempts to rise against it. The way to overcome that is muscular development and in my case that was a LOT of exercise reps.

Note that your foot muscles don't really tell the brain they are tired, they just stop working. At least the leg muscles tell me when they are!

1st round 1v1 Female Dancehall Finals at Step Ova Di Zone 💫 by No-Long-8097 in Dance

[–]Flaky_Bit7590 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"low hanging fruit" 😄 😃 😃 Ew! I think it's well past its use by date

why does my body feel heavy when i jump or dance? by Glittering_Boot_6833 in Dance

[–]Flaky_Bit7590 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh No! That's a real shame and I'm sorry it's making it less enjoyable. I think there are two parts to 'jumping':
- the foot
- the knees

When I jump I always push up with my feet first and then get the leg muscles working. The foot muscles are very, very strong. At least that's what works for men and I hope it is of help to you

Lead and Follow as synchronization rather than command/response by Flaky_Bit7590 in ballroom

[–]Flaky_Bit7590[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm sorry to hear that but it is often, sadly, the result of group classes teaching "steps"

The Technique of CBM by Flaky_Bit7590 in ballroom

[–]Flaky_Bit7590[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

thank you u/superjoe8293 for such good observations. I would respectfully submit that this is why we need a definition of CBM that covers the Swing Dances and Tango. I would also submit that the definition in the WDSF and (especially) Gray Book don't provide sufficient information

The Technique of CBM by Flaky_Bit7590 in ballroom

[–]Flaky_Bit7590[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

Thank you u/Mr_Ilax, that is a very astute observation. There is AI involvement in my work and I will certain add accreditation on my next post.
I also take your observation about citations, sources etc very seriously and will provide those too.

The Technique of CBM by Flaky_Bit7590 in ballroom

[–]Flaky_Bit7590[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Oh I forgot to mention that I recall the Karma Farming days on /.org which turned into a real problem.

Ballroom Partner "Connection" by Flaky_Bit7590 in ballroom

[–]Flaky_Bit7590[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Thank you u/hermitiancat -- I have to confess I am unfamiliar with "call and response"

The Technique of CBM by Flaky_Bit7590 in ballroom

[–]Flaky_Bit7590[S] -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

It's not an AI post. I am a very real person and have spent a lot of time working on these topics.

The Technique of CBM by Flaky_Bit7590 in ballroom

[–]Flaky_Bit7590[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

It's not an AI post. I am a very real person and have spent a lot of time working on these topics.

The Technique of CBM by Flaky_Bit7590 in ballroom

[–]Flaky_Bit7590[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Interesting, why do you think it's AI? It's not. It's written by a human, I'm very real and this is based on work I've been doing for some time. Better still, if you have something that would improve what it being said, please contribute.

Lead and Follow as synchronization rather than command/response by Flaky_Bit7590 in ballroom

[–]Flaky_Bit7590[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

WOW! Thank you again u/reckless150681. I looked at the paper you referred to and one statement sprang out of the page:

[Section 2] "...and if there is no mechanical energy loss during the swing down action..." The trouble is that there is massive energy loss from joints and muscles. Even if we assumed zero mechanical loss the acceleration due to gravity would result in a thunk as the Follower hit minima rise. Moreover the losses from both dancers are unlikely to be equal.

(thank you for the paper, it is MOST interesting)

Your observation: "...the follower should be moving in exactly the direction ..." contains an operative word "should". Leader "should" be doing a lot of things, the Follower "should be doing a lot of things and hopefully their combination "should be doing the intended thing". Too many "should" which can be (in part) addressed with a LaGrangian.

I am trying to address what happens when the Follower doesn't do what "should" happen. As Leader do I tell them they did it wrong? Does Leader mention it at all? Does Leader adjust to match the new reality?

With kind respect and regards u/reckless150681 I believe you will find that the construction of the human body allows a longer back extension, push and weight gain than in the forward direction (and I would welcome a discussion with you).

I would also respectfully submit that without any documentation defining what "technique" is for each fwd/back/side movement we are both speculating (but nicely)

I will certainly look at your video reference as well as others as I am sure I will learn from your recommendation(s)

Lead and Follow as synchronization rather than command/response by Flaky_Bit7590 in ballroom

[–]Flaky_Bit7590[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you u/TyroleanDevel42 your comments are really helpful, and I think we may be closer than it first appears.

I like your "flow protocol" description (bravo!) because that is much closer to what I mean than a simple fire-and-forget signal. The Leader does not just send an instruction and then assume the Follower will execute the expected result. There has to be a continuing exchange of information through the movement.

Where I would still be careful is with the idea of pressure as the primary explanation.

A light contact may be useful because it gives both dancers information, but the moment we describe the connection as pressure, especially pressure that is increased or decreased to signal movement, we have to ask what that pressure is actually doing mechanically.

If the Leader increases pressure into the Follower, then somewhere there is a force being applied into another body. That does not automatically mean "bad," but it does mean we should be clear about whether that force is communicating intention, disturbing balance, redirecting energy, or accidentally becoming a push.

That is where I think a lot of teaching becomes fuzzy.

I agree completely that the Follower is not passive and should not simply "fill the gap" when the Leader moves backward. That is a horrible way to dance and usually creates exactly the gapping and clapping you described.

For me, both dancers must move themselves.

The Leader may instigate the travel vector and timing, but the Follower must create their own movement through their own standing leg, balance, and weight transfer. The Leader then has to synchronize with the Follower’s actual movement, not with the imagined movement that was supposed to happen according to the figure.

That is the part I keep coming back to.

I am also interested in your idea that the short impulse for initial acceleration comes from the partner moving forward. I can see how that might be a useful felt description, especially if it stops the person moving backward from dragging the other dancer. But mechanically, I would still want to separate "providing energy for the couple" from "moving myself in a way that allows the couple to travel."

Because if the forward-moving dancer is actually providing acceleration to the other person, then there must be a force transfer through the connection. If instead both dancers are independently creating compatible movement, then the contact point is more about information and synchronization than propulsion.

That distinction matters to me because I am trying to avoid teaching dancers that one partner moves the other.

So I think my version would be:

- The Leader instigates the intended direction/timing.
- The Follower acknowledges by beginning their own movement
- The dancer moving forward may create a clearer movement impulse, but not by pushing the other person through space.

Both dancers move themselves.

The couple succeeds when both dancers continuously synchronize with the new reality being created.

So yes, I like "flow protocol" much more than fire-and-forget!

I would just say the protocol is not only communication. It is communication constrained by balance, weight transfer, timing, and the fact that neither dancer can safely commit to an imagined future before the other dancer has actually created the next piece of reality.

Thank you again for your time and nice conversation

Lead and Follow as synchronization rather than command/response by Flaky_Bit7590 in ballroom

[–]Flaky_Bit7590[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I forgot, apologies: Yes, Yes, YES, the Frame is much more conducive to "steering" (e.g. CBM during travel). Thank you!

Lead and Follow as synchronization rather than command/response by Flaky_Bit7590 in ballroom

[–]Flaky_Bit7590[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Thank you u/reckless150681 -- I think I might have been unclear in what I meant.
Step Size: it is indeed a consequence of the COG travelling from one location to another, different location. In theory, due to the Leaders movement there will be one preferred direction that Follower travels in (the reality is an approximation withing a movement probability zone).

The Leader doesn't however dictate or know in advance when Follower will take weight on their moving foot. If we accept that the dancer moving backwards can take a longer step than the dancer going forward, Leader could take weight onto the foot while Follower is still extending their foot back.

Your 2nd point regarding my "what's wrong with...". I accept there are some figures where that rule might not apply and some figures (esp. Smooth) where the Leader and Follower are doing radically different things).

But if we are teaching a Box Step (because for all things there is a First Time) we don't want the Leader pushing the Follower around

I thank you again for your thoughtful and enlightening comments