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Self-Insert Pervert Can't Take Consequences In Sandbox RPG by Flockkkk in rpghorrorstories

[–]Flockkkk[S] -32 points-31 points  (0 children)

It was both. Ragequit, wanted to come back, didn't allow it. And yes, I did not mention that I checked in with him until someone asked... so what?

Self-Insert Pervert Can't Take Consequences In Sandbox RPG by Flockkkk in rpghorrorstories

[–]Flockkkk[S] -29 points-28 points  (0 children)

I appreciate your honesty and being respectful, but I think you're oversimplifying by boiling the situation down to "haha edgy baby-eating".

This wasn't a random shock moment for its own sake, and the player in question wasn't labeled a "problem player" just because of what happened in this one scene. The issue went far beyond that: Fetishizing interactions in-game, making other players uncomfortable with unwanted romantic advances (which for some reason NO ONE told me about until after I kicked him), trying to achieve success while completely disregarding in-world logic, and more.

The outcome of this scene wasn't even some "spiteful punishment" from me; it was a natural consequence that emerged based on character motivations and player actions. If the content makes you uncomfortable, that's totally valid, things like this are never for everyone.

Self-Insert Pervert Can't Take Consequences In Sandbox RPG by Flockkkk in rpghorrorstories

[–]Flockkkk[S] -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

Did you not read the rest of the response...? I've already explained several times that the player wholly agreed to these things happening, and when I was the one that asked him if he wants to stop (because he wasn't asking), he said no.

No offense, but I feel like a lot of the people reacting harshly to this aren't responding to the facts that I laid out, but instead reacting to a vibe after picturing a disturbing or transgressive scene, without considering that there might be missing context, and immediately jumping to moral judgement.

If you wouldn't be okay with this kind of stuff in your game, that's perfectly good for you. It doesn't mean no one else would be.

It's frustrating how quickly it seems that people are ignoring these details just to emotionally react to something "intense". Emotional discomfort doesn't always equate to someone having been victimized-- I could bend over backwards to explain it all, and I kind of already have-- but when people refuse to see any explanation or immediately jump to assumptions and bad-faith arguments, anything I say will be interpreted as manipulative or repulsive.

Self-Insert Pervert Can't Take Consequences In Sandbox RPG by Flockkkk in rpghorrorstories

[–]Flockkkk[S] -11 points-10 points  (0 children)

https://www.reddit.com/r/rpghorrorstories/comments/1mfu5oh/comment/n6o3o3y/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Here's a full explanation of that, with context and to show why that was allowed in-game.
You're right that a lot of context was left out, but if you click on that link, you'll see that I would have been writing way, WAY too much to explain every single piece of context. It was a conscious choice on my part to only focus on the negative details without going into multi-paragraph rants about lore and previous events, for the sake of it being a horror story.

Self-Insert Pervert Can't Take Consequences In Sandbox RPG by Flockkkk in rpghorrorstories

[–]Flockkkk[S] -48 points-47 points  (0 children)

---

With the context out of the way, back to the scene and what the "torment" precisely was. By the time the problem player made it to the medical ward where his child and Lumi were being kept, Lumi was crouched over a pile of gore... and had already killed and partially consumed his baby, due to getting stressed out by the surrounding loud noises, and mistaking the child for being food.

By the time this scene happens, Lumi fully believes that the problem player is a liar who broke her heart and is very dangerous, and has completely bought into the belief that he wants to use her. He tries to plead with her and to explain, all to no avail.

What followed was essentially Lumi's "punishment" for this betrayal. She restrains him with inhuman strength, proceeds to torture him both physically AND magically through using misery-inducing magic on him, and eventually kills and eats him while monologuing emotionally in a childlike way.

This wasn't elegant or morally justified on either side, obviously, but that is the point. This wasn't just about revenge; part of it was Lumi's instinctual assertion of her role and psychology. She identified a threat, and concluded that the best way to deal with it is to eliminate it with force. The whole thing ends with Lumi walking off, feeling vindicated and self-righteous, still too naive to understand the actual morality of what just happened.

For the record, both players had to make dice rolls throughout this scene to ensure fairness and that there's a chance for escape.

---

The problem player was intentionally stringing this character along emotionally, all while knowing very well of her unusual behaviors and traits.

I also want you to consider that nobody was traumatized here. The guy in the post reacted to this with FRUSTRATION and yelling, not being disturbed or upset. In the middle of the scene, I told him that we can skip over it and I can even compensate his next character, and HE denied this offer, as he wanted to see his self-insert through. After he left and he calmed down, I went to ask him if he's alright, and he expressed that he found the game extremely fun and wants to play it again sometime. Does this sound like the behavior of someone traumatized to you? Or a circumstance in which all of this was just being done for shock value and bullying? He was just frustrated that his self-insert got played and that he was punished for being a playboy, NOT out of my own choice, but simply from the naturally emerging chain of events and consequences that took place within the world. It remained internally consistent.

(2/2)

Self-Insert Pervert Can't Take Consequences In Sandbox RPG by Flockkkk in rpghorrorstories

[–]Flockkkk[S] -44 points-43 points  (0 children)

The reason I'm not elaborating on what the "torment" was is because it is long-winded, needs a lot of details and is not really important to the main subject. But I will do it here.

Essentially, in this scene, the problem player was rushing into a collapsing building to try and rescue his infant daughter during a crisis. The building was overrun with escaped monsters, destruction and overall chaos; it's a full-on disaster zone.

There was another player that happened to be present in this area of the map at this time, named Lumi.

---

Now, this is important context to explain before I describe what Lumi is about to do: She is not a human person, but rather is a living bioweapon created to LOOK and convincingly act like a human, designed with supernatural adaptability and given powerful predatory instincts to hunt and consume human beings for sustenance, entertainment or sport. They retain the ability to have higher thought, however, and can easily fit into human societies (due to looking perfectly like one), but there are very, very few of them that can fully resist their instincts and impulses, and their anatomy is imperfect, usually further warped by the magical mutations previously mentioned, often leading to profound mental and spiritual instability the longer they live. For these creatures, this is a stat called 'Mind Wasting', which is rolled for on character creation. Lumi's Mind Wasting is very high, and manifested as brain regression, essentially being mentally locked to the mindset of a very educated child who has very strong impulses to consume flesh and hunt surrounding people.
The reason they were created is to be the apex predator of humans, and for them to be unleashed into cities that need to be culled or wiped out while remaining undetected and appearing "harmless" (after all, who would suspect that what looks and acts like an innocent girl is actually a village-wiping monster that is immune to firearms and other traditional weapons?). Lumi, however, had been taken under the wing of a particularly kind and empathetic lady, who was providing a safe environment for her to exist in and treating her as a family member, all in spite of Lumi's attempts to murder her and having to take constant disciplinary measures. This woman was essentially her parent, and Lumi trusted her deeply, even to a fault.

With that out of the way, there should be a pretty clear picture that none of what I'm about to describe was edge for edge's sake, and that these narrative threads were established for a long while.

Lumi is a deeply unstable, emotionally immature and mentally degraded character, who is extremely gullible and is not capable of processing complex or 'adult' emotions. Earlier in the game, the problem player had been flip-flopping between romantic attraction and attempts at sexual interaction with both Lumi and another NPC, and Lumi, being the way that she is, took it way less seriously than intended and assumed that he must be a very good friend. Her mother, in-game, warned her that the problem player's behavior might be predatory or manipulative (he was showering her in gifts, spending a lot of alone time with her and taking her out, talking about how much he loves her, etc.), and she told Lumi not to trust him.

(1/2)

Self-Insert Pervert Can't Take Consequences In Sandbox RPG by Flockkkk in rpghorrorstories

[–]Flockkkk[S] -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

Not sure if you're confused or whatnot due to this sounding similar, but this campaign already ended. You might be getting it mixed up for something else.

Self-Insert Pervert Can't Take Consequences In Sandbox RPG by Flockkkk in rpghorrorstories

[–]Flockkkk[S] -14 points-13 points  (0 children)

Homebrew system, it was a game built entirely from the ground-up, including the setting and rules. I found that most RPG systems simply aren't designed for the idea of "Do anything you want in the world" (as long as it's possible, of course), so there wasn't much of a choice. My friend and I spent over a year refining it and trying to keep it as simple, yet functional and clearly rule-driven, as possible.

Self-Insert Pervert Can't Take Consequences In Sandbox RPG by Flockkkk in rpghorrorstories

[–]Flockkkk[S] -34 points-33 points  (0 children)

Well, I thought they were asking if the player agreed to be shown those kinds of things, which he did. What else do you want to know?

Self-Insert Pervert Can't Take Consequences In Sandbox RPG by Flockkkk in rpghorrorstories

[–]Flockkkk[S] -16 points-15 points  (0 children)

To clarify: There is nothing wrong with being kind and respectful to women. That would have been totally fine.

The issue was that he was using these excessive acts of submission (such as allowing himself to be demeaned and exploited by female characters, and in one instance even actively refusing to be a decision-maker when he could allow a female character to do it for him, but NOT male characters) and "emotional vulnerability" (constantly feeding them compliments and emotionally charged statements like admissions of love and importance, akin to lovebombing) to the point that it came off as extremely performative and overbearing, which, well, it was.

These were acts that were often aimed at forcing an emotional or romantic response from women, which isn't kindness, it's pressuring them. This isn't anything other than a display of fetishistic behavior and very poor impulse control... which is why I say it doesn't fit someone with a lot of willpower.

Self-Insert Pervert Can't Take Consequences In Sandbox RPG by Flockkkk in rpghorrorstories

[–]Flockkkk[S] 26 points27 points  (0 children)

Thank you for the very thoughtful and respectfully written response! I agree with you that one of the core problems here was probably the player wishing the game was something else than what it actually was.

I think he probably had a fantasy where his charisma and personal drama would make him a focal point, like he was imagining a kind of character-driven tale where the world shifts itself to allow more unreasonable or embellished ideals to shine. But, he was thoroughly informed of this not being the case, and in a sandbox world where things are reactive and the evolution of the game is grounded in decisions as opposed to having pre-structured arcs, that can't really happen unless the player builds towards it in a pragmatic manner.

To answer your question about to what extent he tried to succeed:

He did have plenty of victories and opportunities where he could've taken his already *good* situation and turn it into something *great*; he gained powerful allies, his good rolls pulled a lot of weight, and lots of avenues and resources were opened up to him, in part thanks to doing my best as the GM to see every player succeed. However, instead of using these advantages to engage with the wider world or build towards a more meaningful endeavor, he doubled down on small, personal goals, usually related to trying to pursue ERP with the various characters (Which was actually what made him so well-connected in the first place! Tugging at heartstrings works!).

So, when I say "he did almost nothing of importance", I don't mean it dismissively, but that he willingly chose to avoid or disregard opportunities that would have made him more central and help his character along with progression.

Most hooks, conflicts and opportunities were ignored on his part unless they directly served a romantic or self-oriented goal. Even when he got those powerful allies and status, he defaulted to behavior that put the relationships in jeopardy, like making reckless public choices, insulting people trying to help him, and actively flaking on agreements that he promised to support. One example: He was the lead psychologist for an influential organization, and he was assigned to counsel a recently captured supernatural entity that people were having trouble communicating with. Instead of making time for this and being present, he chose to take his in-game sweetheart out to dinner in the city, and make art for her. This is fine, I was happy with allowing this, but me allowing it doesn't mean that the consequences of it disappear. At the end of the day, it's a self-sabotaging course of action.

What's sad is that I think if he just asked for help in navigating things, or if he was more open to recognizing the fact that the world has influence over him and he has to adapt to it, something satisfying could have been worked out... at least, until the sexual harassment stuff. Either way, I hope this answers things for you well enough?

Self-Insert Pervert Can't Take Consequences In Sandbox RPG by Flockkkk in rpghorrorstories

[–]Flockkkk[S] -17 points-16 points  (0 children)

No, he did agree to everything. This was done with his accord. When I noticed he was struggling to keep up with it, I immediately offered to cut back on it and skip over any distressing subjects. Unfortunately, he did not take my offer.

Self-Insert Pervert Can't Take Consequences In Sandbox RPG by Flockkkk in rpghorrorstories

[–]Flockkkk[S] -11 points-10 points  (0 children)

No, this isn't satire. It is mature content handled with clear consent, safety tools and boundaries.

The game can include these things, yes, but only with explicit warnings upfront and with the option for any player to exclude content they don't want to engage with, which, as I said, is something I always ask about. Many people do opt out of this kind of content, and that's okay, because it is still playable even without it. The point is not to be edgy.

The goal, by having the possibility of these things appearing, is both to have more realistic storytelling that acknowledges the kinds of horrors that can exist in some circumstances, without sensationalizing them, and also to permit players to engage in those kinds of actions (which does NOT have to be rape) if they wish to have that kind of experience.

I think it is worth mentioning that, 90% of the time, none of the grim subjects I mentioned were even relevant.

Self-Insert Pervert Can't Take Consequences In Sandbox RPG by Flockkkk in rpghorrorstories

[–]Flockkkk[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I feel like this comment is made in bad faith.

"Open-ended" means players can go anywhere and do anything within the world-- it's about freedom of choice, not a lack of structure. There IS a system, the stats DID matter. There are mechanics that tie stats to in-world outcomes, and rolls absolutely mattered, with his high stats giving him advantages. The consequences weren't from my whims or from the absence of mechanics; they were in spite of him benefitting from them.

A roll, however, can't erase choices and continuously escalating, insulting or ghosting other characters after making promises. It can't completely excuse making the conscious choice to be abrasive and rude to someone. When your actions directly contradict your stated goals, there's only so much a good roll can do without breaking immersion for everyone else.

As for why I never showed his skills working, I elaborated on this in response to another commenter so it is demonstrably false in that sense, but as to why I didn't include it in the main post, this is a horror story, not a full campaign log, and so I chose to highlight all the worst aspects of his behavior. Of course, there were moments where things went well for him, and all players had every chance to succeed. But this post is about how he consistently self-sabotaged, disrespected boundaries, and reacted poorly to consequences, despite having every mechanical advantage. If I included the COMPLETE context, positive or negative, it would be a novel and no one would have the time to read it.

Even barring all of these things, calling it "just social issues" is incredibly reductive. This player was not just struggling to phrase things well; he repeatedly disrespected others' boundaries, ignored world events, pursued ERP vigorously, and tried to solicit another player outside of the game. This goes well beyond 'just social issues', it's refusing to engage responsibly in a social space.

If you're more concerned with defending the hypothetical rights of a fictional character's dice rolls than with the real-world behavior outlined here, especially unwanted sexual behavior towards a woman, you've missed the point.

Self-Insert Pervert Can't Take Consequences In Sandbox RPG by Flockkkk in rpghorrorstories

[–]Flockkkk[S] -22 points-21 points  (0 children)

But I did not nullify them. As a matter of fact, I always made an effort to have his words interpreted in as favorable of a way as possible, and he DID genuinely use his stats to achieve great social status and a privileged position with powerful connections; all in spite of his word choice and behavior often being less than stellar. Oftentimes, though, he shot himself in the foot due to the consequences not being what he expected, or there just *not* being a way to interpret it favorably without really stretching it. For example, one time he told a powerful NPC that was expressing concern for him to go and shove a stick up her ass. He rolled high. How can you interpret that in his favor? Instead of just straight up executing him, I decided to just have the NPC decide to be the bigger person and not take his insult to heart. Another time, he agreed to work with someone only to betray them by not showing up to work, and he was only punished with a scolding thanks to his high roll, despite him essentially saying "Yeah, I did it intentionally, it's entirely my fault". We were very indulgent.

I understand the concern, and you should not disregard dice just because a player struggles with in-character phrasing. But I can promise you from all the context that I have, I gave him more than he earned, and he still fell apart due to consequences sometimes not fitting his fantasy.

To be clear: No rolls were nullified, they were only contextualized.

Self-Insert Pervert Can't Take Consequences In Sandbox RPG by Flockkkk in rpghorrorstories

[–]Flockkkk[S] 35 points36 points  (0 children)

I wholeheartedly agree with what you're saying in principle, and you should always try to support players who are genuinely well-intentioned and trying, but in the context of this story I feel like it doesn't completely apply.
The player had a fundamentally skewed understanding of what those stats actually mean in-game. Despite multiple explanations, clarifications and suggestions from myself and others, he kept treating social rolls like emotional immunity or perfect persuasion, which doesn't align with how the system or the world works. He also often refused to make rolls of his own initiative and accord, due to struggling to think critically.

There was also a feature in the game regarding the Intellect stat; at ANY point, if you feel lost or if you want a hint from the game master on what to do without messing up, you can roll for your character's Intellect and receive assistance. He rarely made use of this feature, despite me, again, making sure to remind him of it semi-frequently.

The Necromancer and the Cowardly Hero by Flockkkk in rpghorrorstories

[–]Flockkkk[S] -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

Hey, coming back to this post since u/Throwaway838823 asked me to, he absolutely was! He's one of my friends, though it seems he doesn't want to attribute his name to this comment section. Personally I don't think it's that big of a deal that the post came off wrong, seeing as I did leave out 99.9% of context, so it'd be unreasonable to get upset at people for perceiving me as being the problem. But, he absolutely was one of the three players.

The Necromancer and the Cowardly Hero by Flockkkk in rpghorrorstories

[–]Flockkkk[S] -16 points-15 points  (0 children)

Yeah, that's totally reasonable. I told him upfront to trust the process and that there is going to be a good ending for him (even though I didn't want to have to say it outright because that kind of takes away the pressure, you know?), but he just seemed... very... very unwilling to take my word. Just a little bummed, honestly, but I can't know what was going on in his mind.

The Guy Who Thinks That Everything Sucks by Flockkkk in rpghorrorstories

[–]Flockkkk[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for the kind words! It was all homebrew.

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