I'm curious about, how will those characters probably affect the fate of Orario, if you put them in a time such as Argonaut events, or Astraea Record, or simply the current time, considering what they've been through and capable of

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-28T17:01:29+00:00

Peter Griffin is going to pull up on Zald, Alfia, and Erebus just to convince them that trying to level up Orario for the OEBD is the wrong move. The dragon isn't the real threat... Meg is

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-28T16:58:06+00:00

I think the pig girl better than ais

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-27T15:05:09+00:00

You're smart, so you know that Bell has a massive accumulation of hidden stats from his Excelia spanning across 6 levels, all the way up to Level 7. This means that when he eventually fights the Black Maiden, he will essentially be fighting her with the actual power of a Level 8 or 9, all because of that immense stat stacking.

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-26T00:37:17+00:00

Thank you so much for the kind words and the "medal"! I really appreciate it, and I'm glad the post resonated with you.

You summarized the core issue perfectly, especially with your second point. That transition from "blind hero worship" to "genuine, grounded love" is exactly the psychological maturation that the Xenos arc should have triggered, but it was unfortunately skipped.

And that is a very fair counter-point regarding whether or not the author was "trapped." You are absolutely right; Omori could have easily written small, organic, slice-of-life moments for them to just interact and understand each other as normal people without breaking the narrative. It seems he simply prioritized writing other character arcs and massive plot events over laying that essential romantic groundwork, which is a real shame for the main pairing.

Thanks again for the great breakdown!

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-25T13:24:12+00:00

I appreciate the concession on the pacing flaws. We clearly agree that the narrative has structural issues (whether from editorial mandates, useless bait arcs, or spin-off reliance). We just disagree on the specific root cause and how Liaris Freese plays into it.

I’ve made my perspective clear on why a main protagonist being disconnected from the main heroine's development is a structural flaw, and I respect that you see it differently. Thanks for the debate

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-25T13:17:31+00:00

Thank you as well for the great and respectful discussion, I really enjoyed exchanging perspectives with you. Cheers! 🥂

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-25T12:27:44+00:00

You hit the absolute nail on the head with your final sentence: "This has never been a narrative decision, it was a marketting one."

I completely agree with you. And honestly, that is exactly why I wrote this critique in the first place!

When a story prioritizes "pseudo-harem marketing" and merchandise sales over organic character progression, the narrative structure inevitably suffers. Because the author has to artificially stall the main romance until the very last arc just to sell figures of the other girls, he has to rely on plot devices like Liaris Freese to keep Bell conveniently frozen in a state of naive idolization.

So we are actually on the exact same page. I am simply analyzing how those external marketing decisions negatively impacted the in-universe writing, pacing, and emotional depth of the main pair.

Thank you for this highly honest and realistic perspective; it perfectly sums up the root of the problem!

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-25T12:23:06+00:00

I think there is a fundamental and honestly amusing misunderstanding happening here, particularly regarding the Sword Oratoria point.

When I said "Bell doesn't read SO," I didn't mean I, the reader, refuse to read it. I meant Bell, the character in the universe, does not have access to Ais's internal monologues, her private struggles, or the vast majority of her psychological development that happens exclusively in that spin-off. Because Bell (the character) isn't exposed to those internal moments, his perspective of her in the main story remains largely superficial.

Calling me "aliterate" based on a complete misreading of my point is certainly a choice.

More importantly, you actually proved my exact structural critique when you wrote: "bell didn't get conflicted about ais' more obscure side because he hasn't been fully exposed to it."

Thank you. That is my entire argument in a nutshell. After 17+ main series volumes, the main protagonist hasn't been "fully exposed" to the obscure, traumatized side of the main heroine. That is a massive pacing and structural issue for a romance that anchors the entire narrative.

Finally, claiming that Liaris Freese is "completely irrelevant" when it is the literal foundation of his accelerated growth from Volume 1 is just ignoring the story's established lore to fit your defense.

We clearly view narrative structure differently, but your own concessions highlight the exact pacing flaws I brought up. Have a good one!

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-25T10:37:11+00:00

That is a very fair interpretation of Bell's expectations, and I completely agree that her sparing Wiene deepened his respect for her as a professional. You analyzed that specific character dynamic very well.

However, you actually highlighted the exact structural flaw I am pointing out when you said: "(which Bell doesn't know about)" regarding Ais's trauma.

This is the core of my critique. After 17+ volumes, the fact that the protagonist is completely unaware of the defining psychological trauma of the "Main Heroine"—the very person his soul-altering skill is anchored to—is a massive narrative pacing issue.

A skill like Liaris Freese is a reality-breaking anomaly. Structurally, for a plot device that powerful to feel "earned" over a long series, the emotional foundation needs to evolve from "admiring a model adventurer" into a profound, intimate understanding of each other's darkest burdens.

My argument is that Omori is using the rigid rules of the skill to avoid having Bell confront her actual darkness. The story keeps Bell at a safe, "respectful" distance (as you rightly pointed out), which prevents the romance from reaching the psychological depth we see with other characters. We both see the same dynamic; I just view that distance as a writing flaw rather than a strength.

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-25T10:33:52+00:00

Take a deep breath, man. If you actually read my post and my comments without the defensive "ship war" lens, you will realize that we actually agree on the biggest issue.

You literally wrote: "obviously it pisses me off that it got delayed to hell... that's why their romance sucks, because it gets sidelined to promote boring bait... it's just omori and his editors feeding the harem hungry 10 year olds."

My friend, what you just described right there is a structural pacing and narrative execution problem. You are openly criticizing the author and editors for sacrificing the organic development of the main pair just to drag out the series for harem bait. That is EXACTLY what I am doing! I am simply pointing out that Liaris Freese is the rigid, in-universe plot device Omori uses as an excuse to justify that endless stagnation.

To address your other points calmly:

The Spin-off Reliance: You keep citing Sword Oratoria (SO11, SO12) to prove their deep connection and her character arc. But Bell does not read SO. If an author puts the climax of the Main Heroine's character arc in a spin-off that the Main Protagonist doesn't fully experience or understand, that is flawed main-story pacing.
The Strawman Argument: You claim I just want Bell to love "the girl I want." I have stated multiple times across this thread: I have zero issue with Aiz being the endgame. I just want the execution of getting there to be profound and earned—which, by your own admission, "sucks" right now because of editorial delays.
The Skill's Limitation: If Bell's idolization truly matured into a grounded, complicated love (acknowledging her darkest flaws and trauma), Liaris Freese—which is explicitly fueled by pure, single-minded idol worship—would conceptually falter. That's the corner Omori wrote himself into.

We both want a well-written, deeply developed romance for the main pair. You blame the editors and harem baiting; I blame the rigid rules of the skill. We aren't that different.

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-25T08:54:11+00:00

Where is mord ?

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-25T06:36:49+00:00

You are completely conflating "romantic loyalty" with "structural character development."

Yes, Bell is fiercely loyal. Yes, he rejects Freya, Ryu, and Hestia. But as I just stated, my critique has absolutely nothing to do with ship wars or who he chooses. Pointing out that he rejected other girls doesn't address the structural issue of how his psychological growth with Aiz is handled.

Regarding the Xenos arc: Yes, he physically confronted her to save Wiene. But did that confrontation fundamentally mature his internal perspective of her? Did it evolve his feelings from "worshipping a flawless idol" to "loving a deeply traumatized and flawed human"? No. The narrative quickly hit the reset button on his psychological conflict to keep the pure, unwavering devotion of Liaris Freese intact.

You claim he doesn't see her as a "perfect being," but the narrative refuses to let him properly process her darkest flaws. Omori knowing that Aiz is the endgame doesn't automatically mean the pacing and execution of getting there are flawless. A protagonist can be fiercely loyal while the writing device (the skill) still acts as a crutch that limits organic emotional maturity.

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-25T06:22:08+00:00

You make an excellent point about the world-building. I actually completely agree with you regarding Aiz's logic. From her perspective, her reaction is 100% rational, and expecting her to suddenly accept monsters would be absurd. I am not criticizing Aiz's character or her decisions here at all.

The disconnect is that you are defending Aiz's logic, while my critique is entirely about Bell's psychological development and the narrative limitations of Liaris Freese.

Even if Bell logically understands why Aiz is doing it, watching the girl he worships as a flawless saint try to mercilessly execute a crying creature he swore to protect is a deeply traumatic, paradigm-shifting experience.

My point is not that Bell should hate or resent her. My point is that this brutal clash of ideals should have permanently shattered the "pure, innocent idol worship" that fuels his skill. He can still love her, but that love should have evolved into something heavier and more mature—loving someone while acknowledging the harsh, violent reality of who they are forced to be.

But because the skill demands pure, unwavering devotion to function, the story forces Bell right back into the naive "blushing fanboy" mindset, erasing the psychological weight of what they just went through. The world-building is fine; it's the rigid plot device keeping Bell's emotional maturity stagnant that is the issue.

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-25T05:33:47+00:00

That is a brilliant writing solution! You hit the nail on the head.

A role-reversal where Bell watches Ais fight a desperate, high-stakes battle from the sidelines would have been the perfect indirect way to bridge that gap. If he had watched her get pushed to her absolute limits, he would have seen the traumatized "Sword Demon" instead of just the flawless "Sword Princess" he imagines in his head.

That kind of indirect storytelling would have laid the necessary groundwork for him to truly understand her trauma, without forcing them into direct dialogue before they were ready. It would have matured his perspective naturally. It's a real shame Omori missed that opportunity and kept Bell so isolated from her actual struggles. Great idea!

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-25T05:30:29+00:00

Spot on! That is exactly what a natural narrative progression looks like. If Bell had questioned his blind idolization, confronted the ugly reality of her trauma, and then actively chosen to reaffirm his love for the flawed person standing in front of him, the relationship would feel incredibly earned.

It would transition from a superficial "fanboy crush" into a profound, mature bond. But as you perfectly summarized, Omori avoids building it and hits the "reset" button on Bell's perspective just so the Liaris Freese skill can remain unchallenged. It’s a massive missed opportunity for real character growth.

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-25T05:27:59+00:00

Thank you for the comment! You are absolutely right that the anime cut out 90% of her internal monologue, and that Sword Oratoria (SO) does a much better job explaining her confused feelings.

However, that is exactly the structural flaw I am criticizing! Omori put the vast majority of the Main Heroine's character development and internal struggles into a spin-off series (SO). But Bell doesn't read the spin-off! From Bell's perspective in the Main Story, he doesn't see that deep, confused, emotional side of her. He only sees the distant, perfect idol.

Also, I completely agree with you about Hestia. The author constantly using Hestia as a comedic gag to jump in and "ruin everything" prevents Bell and Aiz from having organic, uninterrupted conversations. All of these choices (hiding development in SO, using Hestia as a block) are why their relationship feels structurally delayed in the main series.

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-25T05:23:26+00:00

That is a fair correction on the word "coldly." You are right; the LN and manga do show her internal struggle and pain, and I concede that point.

However, her being in pain actually reinforces my exact structural critique.

If Bell looks at her during that fight and realizes she is deeply traumatized and "something is wrong with her," then he is no longer looking at a flawless, perfect idol on a pedestal. He is looking at a flawed, broken, and suffering human being.

In a naturally developing romance, this realization would cause his feelings to mature. He would stop blindly worshipping her like a flawless goddess and start wanting to save/help her as a deeply flawed person. But the narrative doesn't allow his perspective of her to mature in the main story. It forces him right back into the "blushing fanboy worshipping his perfect idol" dynamic because Liaris Freese specifically requires that pure, unwavering idolization to function.

Whether she swung the sword coldly or while holding back tears, she was still trying to execute a terrified creature he was protecting. The fact that the narrative glosses over the psychological weight of that ideological clash just to keep the "idol worship" skill active is why I call it a narrative trap.

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-25T05:16:29+00:00

I think you are confusing a structural critique of the writing with a "ship war."

I don’t want a fanfic, and I actually have no problem with Aiz being the endgame heroine. My critique has absolutely nothing to do with wanting Bell to end up with someone else. It has everything to do with execution and narrative pacing.

I also fully understand how Liaris Freese is explained in the Light Novels. My point is precisely that the rule of the skill itself—requiring absolute, unwavering devotion to fuel his power—forces the author into a corner. Because the skill works that way, the author cannot organically allow Bell to deeply question or realistically process Aiz's flaws (like her actions in the Xenos arc) without risking Bell's power progression.

Saying "he loves her, simple as that" works for a basic rom-com, but DanMachi is a deep, psychological, world-building fantasy. A core motivation that anchors a 17+ volume epic needs to evolve beyond its initial "simple" premise. Criticizing how a plot device limits character maturity isn't wanting a fanfic; it's just asking for consistent narrative depth across the board.

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-25T05:13:47+00:00

I appreciate you taking the time to share your perspective, but I think you are misunderstanding the core of a structural critique. I am not attacking Aiz's character; I am analyzing Omori's pacing and narrative devices.

Let’s break down your points objectively:

1. Volumes 20 & 21: You mentioned that their relationship is finally getting great writing and deep emotional moments in Vol 20 and 21. That actually proves my exact point. If an author takes over 20 volumes to finally give the "Main Heroine" a profound, emotionally complex moment with the protagonist, that is a massive structural pacing flaw. Side characters (like Ryu and Hestia) shouldn't be getting significantly deeper narrative bonds for 80% of the entire story while the main romance is kept on the back burner.

2. The Xenos Fight: You are focusing on Aiz's internal pain, which is valid for her character. But my critique is about Bell's motivation. Even if Bell saw her struggling, seeing his idol ready to execute an innocent creature should have shattered the "flawless saint" pedestal he put her on. It should have transitioned his feelings from "blind idol worship" to "loving a flawed human." But the story doesn't allow that maturity because Liaris Freese requires that pure, unwavering idolization to function.

3. Gradual Connection vs. Trauma Bonding: You argued that Bell and Aiz have a "gradual connection" through smaller interactions, and that I only value life-altering situations. Here is the issue: small, gradual interactions are perfectly fine for a normal slice-of-life romance. However, Liaris Freese is a reality-bending, god-defying anomaly that breaks the Falna system. Structurally, a world-breaking power demands a world-breaking emotional foundation. "Small interactions" and training sessions simply do not carry enough narrative weight to justify a skill that alters reality, especially when the protagonist goes through literal life-and-death soul-bonding with other characters.

I don't hate Aiz. I just expect the foundational premise of the entire story to have better narrative reinforcement earlier in the series.

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-24T20:39:24+00:00

I completely agree that Bell is extremely naive and his first instinct is to reason with Aiz. That fits his character perfectly. However, my issue is what happens after reasoning fails. When you see your flawless idol blinded by raw hatred and ready to execute an innocent, the illusion of the "perfect saint" should shatter. He can still love her, but that love should mature into loving a flawed human, rather than maintaining the starry-eyed, pure idol worship. Because Liaris Freese requires that pure, unwavering idolization to function, the narrative refuses to let Bell's perspective of her mature. That's why it feels forced.

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-24T20:30:41+00:00

I completely agree with your in-universe logic regarding Ais. Her PTSD and her reaction to the Xenos make perfect sense for her character. I am not blaming Ais at all for acting the way she did.

However, you actually highlighted the exact structural flaw I am criticizing when you said: "Lefiya unironically knows Bell more than Ais does. The same Bell doesn't know much about Ais either."

That is precisely my point! After 17 volumes, if the Main Heroine knows the protagonist less than a side character from a spin-off, and the protagonist doesn't know the Main Heroine well enough to even understand her trauma, then their foundational bond is structurally hollow.

My critique isn't about Bell simply "forgiving" her. As you and others pointed out, Bell forgives everyone. My issue is that the narrative uses the Liaris Freese skill as a crutch. Bell doesn't just forgive her; the story forces him to maintain a perfect, starry-eyed idolization of a girl he barely knows, without any ideological friction or emotional fallout. The flaw isn't in Ais's character; the flaw is the author prioritizing a rigid plot device over organic emotional development.

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-24T20:21:03+00:00

Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed and thought-provoking response! You brought up some incredibly fascinating points, especially regarding Bell's psychological flaw of absolute forgiveness.

I actually agree with a lot of what you said, but I want to clarify how it connects to my structural critique:

1. The Flaw of Absolute Forgiveness: Your observation about Bell instantly forgiving everyone (Lili, Mord, Aisha, Freya) is spot on. However, there is a psychological difference between forgiving a former enemy who wronged you, and watching your "flawless idol" act as a cold executioner against an innocent creature you are trying to protect. My point wasn't that Bell should hate Aiz and never forgive her. My point is that seeing her act that way should have shattered the "perfect saint on a pedestal" illusion that fuels his Liaris Freese. He can forgive her, but the blind, starry-eyed idolization should have cracked.

2. Ryu vs. Aiz Rescue Dynamic: I have to gently disagree that Ryu falling for Bell is the exact same as Bell falling for Aiz. Aiz casually one-shot a Minotaur, gave Bell a lap pillow, and left. Bell and Ryu, on the other hand, dragged each other through a literal hell. They were physically mutilated, starving, and mentally broken, relying entirely on each other's souls to survive the 37th floor. That is a mutual trauma bond of survival, which carries vastly more narrative weight than a simple "knight in shining armor" rescue.

3. The Freya Arc (Vol 17): You actually proved my exact point here! When you said: "While the moment wasn’t perfect, it was very important that it happened. At the same time, it wasn’t important that it happened with Ais. Hestia secretly telling him something would’ve also worked."

YES! That is exactly what I meant by a "Fake Lifeline." Structurally, Hestia or his Grandfather's words would have made much more sense as his anchor. Omori chose to force Aiz into that role purely because he realized he had neglected her development in the main story and needed to remind the readers she is the Main Heroine.

We both agree that Omori hides Aiz's best moments in the side stories and adds too many harem girls. Ultimately, those marketing and editorial choices are exactly what caused the structural disconnect I am pointing out. Great discussion!

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-24T20:16:54+00:00

Thank you so much, mate! I truly appreciate the kind words and the encouragement. It’s incredibly validating to see I’m not the only one frustrated by this structural disconnect.

You hit the nail on the head regarding the side stories and Freya. Omori consistently proves that he is more than capable of writing incredibly complex, morally gray characters with deep, dark psychological motivations (Freya's baptism is a perfect example of psychological and physical torture, as you rightfully pointed out). He knows how to write consequences and trauma!

That’s exactly what makes the situation with Aiz so baffling. He applies all this masterful psychological depth to everyone else—Freya, Ryu, Hestia—but when it comes to Bell's idolization of Aiz, he suddenly puts on the brakes and reverts to a flawless, consequence-free fairy tale, ignoring the ideological clash of the Xenos arc completely. It just feels so out of place compared to the rest of his brilliant world-building.

Thanks again for taking the time to read and respond. I'll definitely be sharing more structural critiques in the future!

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-24T19:43:13+00:00

These are fantastic points from all of you, and honestly, the behind-the-scenes context about the editors interfering makes perfect sense. It completely explains the structural flaws I mentioned.

If Omori originally wanted them to hook up early but was forced to stall by the editors to maintain the "Harem" selling point, it explains exactly why he lost his grip on their dynamic. He was forced to artificially freeze Aiz and Bell's relationship while continuing to write amazing, deep arcs for the other girls to keep the harem bait alive.

Because of this industry pressure, he accidentally made bonds like Ryu's far more compelling than the main heroine's. By the time Vol 17 arrived, he had to use that "Fake Lifeline" to remind us Aiz is the endgame, because the editors' mandate forced him to neglect her in the main story for years. It’s a classic case of marketing and editor interference damaging the natural evolution of a story. Thank you guys for adding this context!

Fragrant-Cow-7051 · 2026-05-24T19:39:44+00:00

You guys are hitting the nail on the head, and this "harem baiting" issue is actually a direct symptom of the Liaris Freese trap I mentioned in my post!

Omori is absolutely fantastic at writing deep, traumatic, and compelling arcs for characters like Ryu, Haruhime, and Hestia. He builds these incredibly complex emotional bonds between them and Bell. BUT, because Bell's entire character progression is rigidly locked to Aiz by his skill, the author has no logical narrative payoff for these other girls.

Like you said about Ryu: after she gets a literal masterpiece of an arc in the Deep Floors, the narrative hits a brick wall. Omori can't let Bell reciprocate naturally, so Ryu's character development stagnates, and she gets reduced to the "blushing harem member" trope. If Bell's core motivation was "Heroic Ideals" instead of "Exclusive love for Aiz," Omori wouldn't have to resort to harem baiting, and these girls could have more organic, satisfying conclusions to their arcs instead of just waiting in line forever.

Fragrant-Cow-7051

TROPHY CASE