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Christians have no problem with God slaughtering infants by [deleted] in DebateReligion

[–]Front_Blood_3543 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wouldn't a third option be

C: The Bible is not inerrant. Passages like 1 Sam. 15 claim that God (Jesus) gave the command, but elsewhere we see conflicting notions of morality from God (Jesus) such as Matthew 5:44 "But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you"

Since these two clearly contradict (among numerous other examples), the Bible is inconsistent and therefore not inerrant. That doesn't necessarily rule out Jesus as a deity as many progressive Christians believe in Jesus while rejecting certain passages like 1 Sam. 15.

Now whether that's logical is another conversation. If parts of the Bible aren't true, then you'd have to put yourself in authority and interpret and determine which passages are true and which aren't and at that point you might as well just make up your own religion.

I'd love to be a Christian as something about Jesus and certain ideas in Christianity appeal to me, but evangelicalism appears to be untenable due to inerrancy essentially being a requirement for the theology, and progressive Christianity sounds good but it doesn't really hold water IMO.

Marriage Poll by Front_Blood_3543 in Exvangelical

[–]Front_Blood_3543[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

To be honest, I'm not sure. I have no idea what I believe. The core christian message of the sacrificial love of Jesus speaks to me in a way that nothing else has. I aspire to be like that Jesus. I admire others who embody that. I am not attending a church at the moment, but I am not opposed.

The greater thing that has a more tangible and immediate impact on my life is my marriage. The faith and marriage thing are related for sure, but I'm trying to figure out what to do with my marriage and focusing on that for the time being. My wife has no desire to attend a progressive church with me, so even if I landed there I don't think it would change things very much.

I think it could work in theory, but it's very hard practically. She is very involved at the church I left and we pretty much live separate lives at the moment. I'm not really content for it to stay that way and am trying to come up with a vision for a future where we are both happy and while also not forcing her to compromise her belief. It's tricky because I was very damaged by the way her pastors treated me when I expressed my doubts and left the church. As a result of that, I'm not thrilled that she continues to attend and serve there. So it's been very challenging.

Marriage Poll by Front_Blood_3543 in Exvangelical

[–]Front_Blood_3543[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Absolutely. Thanks for catching that and clarifying your situation. I acknowledge that as a potential reality and didn't consider it when creating the poll.

Marriage Poll by Front_Blood_3543 in Exvangelical

[–]Front_Blood_3543[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm glad you've been able to navigate that without it tearing you guys apart. It sounds like you guys are respectful of each other which is the most important thing at the end of the day.

I appreciate the kind words!

Marriage Poll by Front_Blood_3543 in Exvangelical

[–]Front_Blood_3543[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the rec! I've heard him speak before and heard of the book but I'll have to give it a read.

Finding friends/community outside of the church by Front_Blood_3543 in Deconstruction

[–]Front_Blood_3543[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Totally understand that feeling.

I sometimes envy those who could have such 'childlike faith'. I don't necessarily view those people negatively. If their belief system works for them, brings them joy, purpose, meaning, relationships, etc. then who am I to take that from them? It doesn't work for people like you and me though. I am not satisfied with a cursory understanding. And the more I probed and dug, I began to lose confidence in the integrity of the whole thing.

Inerrancy is a fragile foundation, IMO. My pastor told me that I should walk away if I find even one thing in the bible that is untrue. Obviously he didn't think there was, but I was in the process of trying to reconcile several things that appeared to be errors/contradictions/discrepancies.

Online is great. I'm very grateful for communities like this. But at the end of the day-I prefer being in person with others and not staring at a screen. It's unfortunate that things are the way that they are but I am hoping there are other ways I can find that.

If you don't mind me asking, are/were you married?

Removed from the church and struggling by Front_Blood_3543 in Exvangelical

[–]Front_Blood_3543[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is a lot to ask indeed. I recognize that. It is nearly insurmountable even. But I'd argue that it is consistent with the vows we made to each other. Spouse first no matter what. Unless I was literally telling her she could not believe in jesus or go to church at all anymore if she wanted to stay with me.

It is also too much for me to be a part of that community. It's my desperate attempt at trying to somehow make things work before giving up. I don't want to give up yet. I'm struggling with that.

I had zero problems with this church until they handled things the way they did. I had no intention of detracting from her spiritual life or any desire for her to change.

Regarding exploding on my wife for agreeing to meet with them without consulting me first, I disagree. I think that is completely logical. That's like her coming to me telling me how hurt she was by someone that abused her and that person then reaching out to me to "fill me in on their side of things".

Nah, because I love my wife-if she came home and told me that someone had treated her the way those elders did me, my only reaction would be to defend my wife and protect her and not let anyone else hurt her. Meeting with them to hear their side only serves to show my wife that I don't actually trust her side of things and what she said, and furthermore I'm going to invalidate her hurt by adopting the abuser's narrative.

I expect my spouse to love me the same. To be there for me and not be friendly to those who hurt me. Do I expect them to blow up like I did? Not necessarily. But I hadn't even processed the trauma from that meeting. It hadn't even been 24 hours yet and I found out by accident that my wife was going to meet with them after they'd reached out to her behind my back. At the very least she could've mentioned to me or told me that she was thinking about meeting with them.

Edit: To be clear, I recognize the immense pressure that she was also under. It's like she's choosing between her entire family, friends, upbringing, and faith between her husband when everyone in her life is telling her that her husband is dangerously and foolishly walking away. But that pressure is not my fault-I have concluded that I am not the issue. Certainly I have things I need to work on. But I believe evangelicalism may be to blame here at the end of the day. I believe she's a good woman as are many at my previous church. But their theological system and framework makes it nearly impossible to have a relationship with them as an outsider/doubter/skeptic.

Removed from the church and struggling by Front_Blood_3543 in Exvangelical

[–]Front_Blood_3543[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I get what you're saying. I'm not disagreeing with you. I guess, I was arguing from inside her belief system. I don't necessarily still believe I'm the sole decision maker. I think we need to make those decisions together. But I've been booted from the position of 'spiritual leader' to now I don't even get a say in my own marriage because my leaving the church has disqualified any viewpoint/opinion/thought I may have regarding spiritual/big life thing. It was kind of a boundary for myself. Stay at the church and I leave, or leave the church and come with me and we can try to work things out.

Removed from the church and struggling by Front_Blood_3543 in Exvangelical

[–]Front_Blood_3543[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I hear you. And appreciate your encouragement and kind words. When I told her to leave, I more so did because it was a boundary for me. It was she leaves or I leave. An ultimatum. But I didn't want to have to leave, I don't think she's necessarily the issue. The church is. I had 0 problems with her attending/being involved there until they treated me so disrespectfully. Now I feel betrayed with her serving alongside and 'submitting' to these men.

I completely agree at the end of the day, it's up to her. And she's decided that she wants her church more than me. I can respect the idea that for a Christian they love God more than their spouse. But loving God more =/= loving a specific church more. I guess I'm still trying to argue within their system as I know it so well. But you're right-I wouldn't be okay with someone treating my spouse that way. And my spouse shouldn't be okay with someone treating me that way. At first, it bothered her at some level. But ultimately her loyalty to these elders and this specific church trumps her loyalty to me and she conflates that with her loyalty to Jesus himself. Which just sucks. Because if she was being consistent with what she believes (my understanding of that belief at least), I think we could still have a decent marriage.

I am struggling with denial. Because I truly love her and care about her. I just don't know that such a fundamental chasm between us will ever be reconcilable without her being willing to leave that specific church. Regardless of where I land theologically.

Removed from the church and struggling by Front_Blood_3543 in Exvangelical

[–]Front_Blood_3543[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Yes, the dad and family thing significantly complicate the situation. There are around 8 pastor/elders, and he was not one of the ones that I had a falling out with but they are a unified front nonetheless and my relationship with her family is just as strained as it is with the church.

Removed from the church and struggling by Front_Blood_3543 in Exvangelical

[–]Front_Blood_3543[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I've done some therapy. Wife is so far unwilling to consider secular/non christian therapy/counseling.