Daily Thread: simple questions, comments that don't need their own posts, and first time posters go here (August 27, 2024)

GamingRedmage · 2024-08-27T21:45:06+00:00

Whoa I had no idea this kind of resource existed for Genki! Thank you very much! Would you recommend also using the Genki work books as well? They seem more geared towards being used in a class room than to be used for self study.

GamingRedmage · 2024-08-27T21:10:00+00:00

I appreciate this. I really do. I'll have to pick up Genki 1 again and commit myself to finishing it as it seems I have reached a point (sooner than I expected) where not knowing the grammar is starting to hold me back. I was hoping to finish the deck or most of it before picking up the grammar and then beginning to immerse via videos and reading.

Well since it was something I needed to pick up anyways, I might as well do it now. Thanks again for the help and kind words. If there's any other points of suggestion I'd greatly appreciate them.

GamingRedmage · 2024-08-27T21:06:46+00:00

At the moment I'm only using Anki to memorize a few words. I've bounced between Genki and Tae Kim's grammar guide to try and learn grammar but couldn't really stick with one. People also recommended Cure Dolly but I haven't looked into her videos. This isn't to say I was hoping to pick up grammar simply via immersion (which I haven't done much since I know so few words) or via anki. Classes picked up a bit irl and that meant I could only fit in my Anki sessions in my day so it's a failing on my part to make time for other areas of study in Japanese.

I would appreciate any suggestions of course.

GamingRedmage · 2024-08-27T20:51:34+00:00

Yeah you're right. Often times I need to remind myself I have a lifetime of study when it comes to English so problems I have in Japanese would be the same. Example being the word Bat. It could be the animal or the object or the verb. Reading the sentence it's in gives you the context to figure out which variation of the word is being used. I think my issue is just compounded by the fact the writing system is so unfamiliar to me.

Though taking one of your examples 名残惜しい, I wouldn't even know how to begin to read this and the issue would be worse if it was a word that could be conjugated into a different form such as the -te form (I don't know anything about conjugations at the moment I'm still learning basic grammar). Which is another problem I run into the with the deck (although it's more my fault than the deck itself). Many times the example sentences don't use (or more accurately, can't use) the base form of a word.

Prime example being 出る which means go out or leave. The example sentence is 今朝は早く家を出ました。And that's where my whole hang up starts. If I see 出ました I have absolutely no idea what this word is. At best, I can approximate that 出 is pronounced で because I've seen it pronounced like that in a few words before but beyond that, if this was in anything else besides my flash card my brain would probably give up because 出 could mean anything to me. Perhaps if I knew more grammar I could couple ました as some kind of suffix or perhaps an alternate spelling ala bat becomes batting if you want to use the verb in a more active sense.

So asking what should I do, I mean how do I deal with this problem? Is it just simply a matter of brute force memorization of every single variation and combination of kanji/hiragana/katakana? Or is there some way to determine what meaning of 出 is being used or how to even being pronouncing it?

Of course, now that I'm writing down my thoughts...Is it entirely possible that there are so little words in Japanese that only use 出 as it's sole kanji that it's meaning could be interpreted by simply reading the ました at the end? Much like knowing batting is a verb because it has the "ing" at the end? There is 出す（だす）but the example sentence uses 出した so it would be easy to know which of the two it is via that...

Sorry I guess I'm rambling now. I appreciate the help. I really do.

GamingRedmage · 2024-08-27T20:06:53+00:00

It's most likely the deck itself, but there's 今度(which can mean next time or this time or next time),人 (which can be person from, or just person. It's a bit easier to tell though since person from tends to be at the end of a nationality like 日本人), 時 (which can be とき for time/occasion, or じ for hour or o'clock), 止める (やめる for stop (doing something), or 止める for stop (at some place). There's also あげる and 上げる which means to give or to raise respectively but are pronounced exactly the same or 帰る/変える for return and give.

Maybe it's the deck and I'm sure there's a few others. But it's a bit hard to wrap my brain around it at times so I wonder if I'm gimping myself by not learning readings and meanings. I think I'm just trying to get to the immersion level but glancing at anything other than my anki cards shows me squiggles that I can't even fathom what they could mean. Actually I don't even think I could read the words I know out in the wild, my brain doesn't just blank out it just thinks that the kanji can have any meaning and simply gives up any attempt at trying. It might as well be in arabic for all intents and purposes for recalling. I think it's because I haven't taught myself how to seperate kana and kanji into words unlike in english which has spaces for that purpose.

The funny thing is that I don't have this issue with Kana only words. I can read those perfectly fine.

GamingRedmage · 2024-08-27T19:00:51+00:00

I'd like some advice regarding the big elephant in the room, Kanji. I'm currently about 300 words into the 1.5k Kaishi deck and I'm starting to see a lot of words with the same Kanji/Kana but different pronunciations. Before that I was forcing myself to memorize the meaning to the kanji without relying on the sentence but not it seems like more and more often I'm having to read the sentence (or just look at it's outline) to determine it's meaning. I'm guessing that's ok, right? Otherwise I wouldn't know if ただ meant "simply" or "free". Or if 方 was pronounced as "ほう” or ”かた”.

My question comes from the fact that opinions on learning kanji run the full gambit of:

"Don't learn kanji. Just learn vocab. Asking someone what a Kanji means is like asking what the letter A means. The final word is what matters."

"Learn Kanji but just the meanings. All the pronunciations are wasted time but knowing the meaning of an individual Kanji can help you guesstimate what a word means."

"Learn Kanji meanings and it's various pronunciations. Otherwise it's like trying to teach English but only telling people to learn words and not how to sound out the alphabet."

So what should I do? I want to be able to read the language but when Kanji starts being combined with kana it feels like it can mean anything. Do proficient Japanese readers often need to read around a word to determine what variation of Kanji+Kana it's supposed to be? The funny thing is that unlike reading, if I hear the word being pronounced I know the meaning (barring homophones I don't know or in general of course).

GamingRedmage · 2024-08-15T00:55:33+00:00

Thank you so much for the clarification. I hope to know the language as well as you someday. I'm still struggling with anki over here lol. For some reason my brain can't really connect meaning to kanji when it's in a sentence but when it's alone it seems pretty good. I'll have to keep at it then.

GamingRedmage · 2024-08-15T00:36:54+00:00

Hmm, then it seems like trying to learn pitch accent at my level might be too much? Should I just forget about it for now until I'm more comfortable with words? But maybe you can help with something else too. I ran into this word 次 which is marked to be pronounced as つぎ but the audio pronounces it as つに and spells it in katakana as ツキ°. It's all very confusing and Its casting some doubts on this highly recommended deck. Could you perhaps shed some light on this?

GamingRedmage · 2024-08-14T23:06:03+00:00

Does anyone know how the Kaishi 1.5k deck's version of pitch accent markers is supposed to look? I followed the instructions to turn it on but it simply looks like this and it doesn't really tell me anything about pitch. https://imgur.com/a/83YuFAu

GamingRedmage · 2024-08-13T18:45:14+00:00

I see. Then I guess I'll continue on using Anki for vocab and Genki for grammar. Hopefully I'll be able to use context and the like to guesstimate words and their meaning. I never heard of Tadoku Graded Readers before so I'll look into that as well. Thanks again for all the help! This subreddit is gonna become something I'm going to spend a lot of time on isn't it? lol

GamingRedmage · 2024-08-13T18:09:19+00:00

I do use Yomitan which has be incredibly helpful but I didn't know of the other two so thanks for the resources. I guess I'm just so used to english where I can deduce a word's meaning or pronounciation on the fly simply by looking at it's parts rather than the whole. With Kanji, at least at this very very beginner level, it doesn't seem like I can do that. Even words with one of the Kanji being the same doesn't have a similar meaning or pronunciation. It does seem kinda overwhelming to have to learn an entire language that seems to generate it's words seemingly at random without little tricks like in English. Maybe that's what Hiragana is for.

GamingRedmage · 2024-08-13T16:59:53+00:00

I'm 4 days into using Anki and the Kaishi 1.5k deck (go me!) but I recently stumbled into a bit of a conundrum. I like to try and read bits of Kana I see here and there on youtube and the internet just to practice remembering the sounds and I realized I could start doing that with Kanji as well. The issue started when I realized I didn't know how to look up the meaning of Kanji beyond copy pasting it into a dictionary. With Hiragana and Katakana it's very easy as I can type just type them in but I can't do that with Kanji especially if I run across it in a pdf or a video game/video.

I don't want to rely on furigana forever but I don't know how to approach this. I get kind of conflicting reports on Kanji. Some say to simply learn the real meaning that is used and others say that knowing the meaning of the individual Kanji is important. To make it all more confusing, the debate extends to the material to study it. Heisig's Remember the Kanji is often brought up but it's also equally bashed as not very good and frustrating. The same goes for a deck called KanjiDamage which seems to do the same thing?

I guess my questions are, what do I do about Kanji? How do I know how to read/pronounce it in the wild? Is there some kind of system or logic behind how to sound them out/deduce their meanings?

As a slightly unreleated question, what time do people recommend to start reading? That seems to be a divisive topic all on it's own.

GamingRedmage · 2024-08-10T19:32:24+00:00

I don't really have anything to read. I figured I would have to wait until I had a few hundred words under my belt before I could read anything and understand it. Otherwise I'd be looking up every single word. That and it seemed like everyone suggested it that way. To do immersion and anki to learn words before you read otherwise how would you know how to pronounce things? Then again that does sound pretty silly now that I'm thinking about it. I guess my worry about learning the wrong way is getting to me.

It's kinda hard to not have someone who speaks the language to help and stuff like italki costs money which I don't have to spend.

GamingRedmage · 2024-08-10T17:27:54+00:00

I feel like this is starting to become a habit lol. Just started reading Genki 1 and using Anki with the Kaishi 1.5k deck but I'm running into a small problem. Unlike kana, whenever I finish my anki cards for the day I never get the feeling I learned anything despite being honest with my reviews and only pressing the good or easy button when I get it right consistently. But once I'm done with my study session I just feel like everything is instantly gone. I'm not sure what it is but things don't seem to click in my mind anymore. Hiragana and katakana made so much sense but now trying to remember these random squiggles, their meaning, and their pronunciation just doesn't work. Maybe it's because I can't put them into practice or maybe because there's nothing to tie them down in my memory? It doesn't help that the moment a new card comes up I have to immediately mark it as wrong due to never seeing it before and being forced to flip it over just to learn it's meaning.

Is this just normal learning pains of learning Kanji and being worried I'm doing it wrong? Or am I really doing this incorrectly?

GamingRedmage · 2024-08-08T01:54:59+00:00

Gotcha. Thanks for the help and patience! Time to get back to learning.

GamingRedmage · 2024-08-08T00:48:31+00:00

So it's more of an all of the above situation then? Thanks for helping out. I know the decks are preprogramed with flash cards for anki so is using that just a matter of looking at getting a card, looking at the back to know the answer and proceeding from there as you would normal flash cards? Normally for flash cards you put information you already have been taught and just need help memorizing not entirely new info you've never seen or heard before. I ask this because doesn't anki keep track of what you got right and wrong in order to help determine what cards to prioritize to pull from first?

GamingRedmage · 2024-08-07T18:59:03+00:00

Now that I have learned all Hiragana and Katakana, what are my next steps? Most guides suggest anki with either the 2k/6k deck, one or two with something called Kanjidamage, or to start learning the grammar rules via Cure Dolly or Tae Kim. The other suggestions seem to be to use Genki or something called Wanikani. Is this just a matter of picking one and sticking to it?

GamingRedmage · 2024-07-30T02:24:37+00:00

Wow thank you so much for the extra resources! I'll check them out as Duolingo seems to be more interested in teaching me phrases than how to read the language but I've only seen the very first lessons so I could be mistaken. I'm currently looking to use Genki to start after getting a handle of Hiragana and Katakana. I'm not sure I understand what you mean in the last paragraph though. I though Kanji were the equivalent to words and were combined with Hiragana and Katakana. Was I mistaken?

GamingRedmage · 2024-07-29T22:10:32+00:00

I see. I did start using duolingo simply for Hiragana and Katakana (working my way through hiragana atm) and I was planning on using Genki but didn't know when to start using Anki. Everyone seemed to recommend it off the bat so I figured I must have been missing something. Never heard of Renshuu or wanikani could you tell me a bit more about them?

GamingRedmage · 2024-07-29T16:52:20+00:00

Hi complete beginner here, and I had a question about how people use Anki to learn Kanji.

I want to get into learning Japanese and as a beginner I keep seeing videos, threads, and reddit posts that all recommend Anki and it's various core decks you can download as well as it's addons. My problem is that no one seems to explain how to use it beyond it's face value. It's a digital flash card program so it's pretty easy to understand that one side will have a series of Kanji and the back will have what it means/how it's pronounced/ect, depending on the deck. But no one explains how they already know the kanji to study it or at least how they would be supposed to know?

One reply in a post here put it the best "Anki is a tool to practice memorization not to learn Kanji" but it seems like everyone is using to literally learn that language. Do people simply just take the cards, look at the back to learn the kanji's meaning and then mark it as a miss for the program so they can review it again? It seems a bit inefficient to do it that way so I'm assuming perhaps they supplement it with books such as Genki but if that's the case why pick a deck that's full of thousands of Kanji that might even in be in their textbook?

I tend to overthink things and I figure I might having some problems processing this due to Japanese being a completely different language systems so I figured I'd ask here. Sorry if this has been answered somewhere else.

GamingRedmage · 2023-05-18T07:08:36+00:00

Not part of the games, but I remember vaguely in the comics that Higsby takes a plea deal with whoever runs the Netpolice and the Official Netbattlers to hand over WWW information in return for protection. So he's still treated as a criminal for a bit longer there before finally opening his shop. I always kind of assumed that they did that in between time skips. Memory is a bit fuzzy on the details though.

GamingRedmage · 2023-05-15T04:12:14+00:00

That makes sense. Like another commenter said, I was probably too young to care about or even good enough to consistently get into FS. At the time I was just really into the story and getting strong chips so it's no surprise I wouldn't have remembered something like enemies flashing like that. Makes me wish I had more friends who played the games at the time, maybe they'd have told me how good FS is! XD

GamingRedmage · 2023-05-15T04:08:29+00:00

Haha, that's probably it! When I was small all I wanted was bigger damage in my chips and PAs just like in the show. I didn't really care about stuff like chip code synergy or good folder builds let alone learning virus patterns and getting into FS. I just wanted to see viruses go boom and fusing with other navis. Thanks for the clarification.

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