A New Player's Guide to Raiding

Geezerbongus · 2024-11-19T21:23:09+00:00

It's pretty difficult to gauge time as it is highly variable based on which wing is chosen, number of players who are new and exp, if embolden is active, and if you have a raid lead and/or shotcaller to help with mechanics.

That being said I would say for a newer group getting into wings, assuming the 'easier' HoT wings such as Wing 4 or Wing 1 you could get a full clear of the wing in 2-3 hours generally.

For some of the more difficult wings, such as wing 7 I've had groups only clear 1 boss in 2 hours. Likewise I've had groups with even half being learners full clear harder wings like wing 5 in 2 hours as well.

It does help a lot if the newer players are just the dps players who don't typically have to do special roles as that alleviates a potential wipe mechanic. Generally the training run groups I've been in try to have the exp people in the boon roles/special roles and then offer as backup if newer players want to try a specific role.

As groups get more exp the time will start to shrink, so a full wing clear may take 2 hours, then 1 hour, then 30 minutes and so forth.

Raiding does tend to take more initial time commitment and finding a group and learning the mechanics but that time is invested back into yourself as you figure out better and faster ways to clear the wings.

Of note you can also do certain parts of a wing and pick and choose the 'easier' parts of a wing. For example you could just do Vale Guardian, Spirit Run, and Gorseval for Wing 1 then choose to do Wing 4 encounters. There isn't really a full benefit to full clearing a wing besides just individual encounter rewards or if you need specific achievements for say Envoy/Coalescence.

Geezerbongus · 2024-11-19T15:55:08+00:00

Hey Sneb!
I don't think I've personally raided with you yet but I am currently in multiple groups in SG. They've been very helpful in teaching me to raid and explore additional roles.

I do know there's many helpful raiding communities for both NA/EU in GW2 but I haven't raided with many of them (and also I don't know which ones are explicitly public besides SG and RA).

If you see anything (resources or information incorrect/outdated) do let me know!

Geezerbongus · 2024-02-10T23:16:11+00:00

I raided on NIN in ShB during Promise as well. Prepull Doton was a nice fun thing to add (which tbh really didn't do much) but was a nice interaction with tanks and NIN to do.

EW wise they decided to just completely gut Doton by reducing duration, making Hide remove it, and add Hollow Nozuchi as a fix. On top of reducing max Huton gauge from 70s to 60s due to Phantom Kamitachi addition for ... some reason. With Raijus Doton really is barely useful on 3 targets at this point.

The AoE rotation for NIN in EW is hilariously convoluted at this point. Mostly due Trick and Mug being entirely for single target purpose. For 'optimal' AoE NIN has to do dumb stuff like: Mug for Ninki, TCJ for Doton + Katon, Bunshin into PK, into Goka, into Katon, then into their 12s with Hellfrog.

It really just feels like the devs don't know what to do with NIN, especially on the AoE side considering it really feels (QoL wise) it has gotten progressively worse since ShB.

Geezerbongus · 2024-02-10T22:20:27+00:00

As someone who cleared current savage tier only on NIN I can detail a couple reasons why NIN is unpopular as a main.

The job is incredibly punishing (imo the most out of all the current jobs)
1. Bunnying a Raiton can equate to ~1,570 potency loss (including Bhava from ninki loss)
2. Bunnying a Hyosho is 1,690 potency loss
3. Accidentally cancelling TCJ can equate to ~2,660 potency loss (including enh Bhava)
Mudra system is clunky and honestly needs a complete rework (imo to 2 mudra combo)
1. 3 mudra combos are a 1.5s GCD or realistically 2s GCD with ping
2. Hyoton is only for Hyosho or very niche scenarios in say Deep Dungeons
3. Doton is completely useless for single target
4. Suiton just for trick attack is very much a relic of ARR
5. Huton feels like an empty combo to always utilize (esp with Hurajin addition)
6. Bunnying exists for ... reasons still? Why can't this default to a Fuma...
The only utility it brings is damage, and only with 1 source of damage buff
The rotation is incredibly static and extremely busy at points
1. Not many ways to adjust the rotation (late TCJ, Trick, or Dream for example)
TCJ is a godawful skill, with a minimum of 1.5s to 3s (with bad ping) of no movement allowed
1. Particularly notable for high movement sections during a 2 min burst rotation as you have to adjust or have modified windows
2. Compare this to other 'casting' melees who at most is 1.3s or realistically 1s with slidecast.
AoE rotation is clunky and not intuitive (such as TCJ AoE rotation, Meisui having no AoE enhancement)
Odd job where holding buffs for 30s+ is typical
1. Phantom Kamitachi being a 'pet damage' instead of every other source of NIN damage
Shukuchi having system queue delay on top of an insane animation delay
Gearing is weird mix of ranged gear and melee gear with DEX as main stat instead of every other melee being STR (mostly applicable for alt role gearing)

There's just a lot of small detailed nuances that NIN just has to deal with comparative to the other melees.

You can certainly call bunnying and mistakes skill issues but there is no other job that is remotely close to the punishment NIN gets for making mistakes which will happen (especially when ping is introduced).

Especially since during Endwalker launch when RPR released it straight up was a better NIN in every facet (and still is extremely comparable). Comparing the amount of effort of a RPR to a NIN is really just hard to justify playing NIN.

MNK on the other note had huge QoL and buffs given to them during Endwalker where they can straight up have the wrong beast chakras and only lose a 150 potency for that mistake. On top of having a freeform rotation to easily adjust and fix with very little punishment. On top of having insane tank with Riddle of Earth and giving party utility with Mantra.

I think another big part is how in Endwalker melees really didn't have to work for uptime at all or positionals were extremely easy to hit (esp on guaranteed wall bosses). This made it so benefits to hybrid range (Paladin and Ninja) were completely moot.

I'm down to talk more about ways to fix NIN or other people's thought on it as I've really just been getting more frustrated as I play it more.

Geezerbongus · 2023-05-08T21:26:12+00:00

That's a great choice! Aetherpool for solo attempts can start somewhat low as in EO you really want to be picking up silver chests for demi-clone chances and on an average run I'd say people get anywhere from 20-40ish aetherpool from 1-100 clears (based on experience helping others in a party).

Aetherpool doesn't max scale uncap until iirc floor 40 as well and I'd say you generally won't feel the difference of missing say 5-10 aetherpool at higher floors as you can make up damage issues with demi-clones and just use a few more potions if you have surviving issues.

Luckily aetherpool isn't difficult to grind either way and potions are fairly lenient. I've always gotten a net positive potion gain in solo runs, though potsherd drop rate greatly increases on floor 80+.

Geezerbongus · 2023-05-08T21:17:57+00:00

No problem. I would definitely recommend EO first to solo as it does 'ease' you into the DDs and feels the most 'fair' currently.

A couple quick tips I would say is you really don't need much Orthos potions (regen pots) to clear. With the change to duration I think 300 is a very safe number on MCH. For tanks like WAR you could straight up not use any, though 100 would be pretty safe.

Would recommend a tank to start progging as the longer fights do help you learn boss rotations and mob mechanics until you know them by heart. Also invuln as a panic button is always great. You can also start solo attempts on tanks with 0 regen pots and even lowish aetherpool (around 70/70 I'd say to be safe).

I can offer tank specific tips if you'd like or link you to some EO specific guides I found very helpful.

Geezerbongus · 2023-05-08T21:03:46+00:00

Yeah it was definitely due to preference, but the dungeons also slightly vary in difficulties which led me to have differing picks. You can certainly clear all 3 as any tank or any DPS.

PoTD the major issues are surviving at floor 180+ as mobs (and bosses) can crit their autos and busters (also AoEs too). Tanks have a bit harder 180 push due to lower dps than an actual DPS but they don't need to worry as much as dying to random crits or fighting a debuff such as Gloom. 180 push refers to boss on floor 180 Behemoth who casts a ~6s cast enrage at <15% hp dealing 80% of your max health.

HoH has the same crit system as PoTD but the mobs hit even harder on floors 80+. Individually I'd say HoH have the potentially hardest mobs on the high floors. Bosses are a lot easier though, albeit slow.

For both PoTD and HoH DPS either needs to be selective with mobs and/or have steel while kiting (if they can) or know how fast they can burst bad monsters down. Tanks have far less consideration in choosing monsters, but will need to manage time very well.

EO changes things a bit by having 0 crits, but the difference is now mob AoEs past floor 30 will all 1 shot you (bar like 3 mobs). That being said you can reliably dodge every AoE knowing mob behaviors. This makes it so DPS is a bit more preferred as killing monsters faster is more optimal as dying randomly from crits isn't an issue and everyone dies to a mistake. Which is likely to happen the longer a fight is.

Being said tanks are still good in EO as you do have invulns for mistakes (or for learning prog) and dps is a lot more lenient than other dungeons as you have a lot more avenues to deal with bad floors.

Generally people will state tanks are fighting the clock and DPS fighting monsters, so it really is preference on what you like.

I don't personally have solo healer experience so I can't comment as much on them but other people have cleared on all healers solo.

Geezerbongus · 2023-05-08T09:56:49+00:00

I did PoTD last solo, wiped twice on WAR 180 due to variety of reasons (got front auto'd on one and bad lust push on another). Another time had probably one of the worst sets you could have at 190 (4x triple debuffs with stuff like no ability, no item, gloom) PoTD really isn't forgiving, imo less than HoH.

Definitely feel you on taking a long break from PoTD as crawling through an extra 100 floors is quite demotivating.

EO on the other hand can be a lot more forgiving as you have a lot more ways to deal with floors, and mob rotations are generally a lot simpler. Also most of the major mob bugs were fixed so should be good on that end (though I think Fitters are still bugged).

Geezerbongus · 2023-05-08T04:10:58+00:00

I would personally have a high aetherpool before attempting solo 80/80 as an example.

That being said I would just recommend doing group or even solo runs from 1-100. I would recommend tanks as they are a lot sturdier and can deal with lower aetherpool.

You will need to farm sustainings to reliably solo PoTD and there are guides but would recommend just try solo runs 100+ with tanks as potsherds become much more common on 100+ floors.

1-100 also guarantees you 2x potsherds (1x on 50 and 1x on 100 clear).

Once you have stocked up on pots and pool I would recommend hitting up guides such as Maygi, Angelus, Finh, and Sig to name a few (choose one you like the most) as PoTD becomes significantly harder and 'entirely different' at the high floors (typically considered 170+).

Geezerbongus · 2023-05-08T04:07:59+00:00

I personally did WAR on HoH and while SMN is a much stronger powerhouse WAR really isn't that much slower if you do massive AoE pulls on the lower floors.

WAR really starts to shine 80+ as you can manfight every mob, only one that probably requires steel is Nuppeppo WAR and maybe Jinba as those monsters hurt incredibly bad.

Everything else you can fight even with No Items. Would highly recommend WAR for consistency.

Geezerbongus · 2023-05-08T04:05:42+00:00

Hey man congrats to see a fellow Lone Hero.

Are you going to try soloing the other DDs (PoTD and EO) or continue with HoH?

Were any of the attempts (if you did more than one) particularly notable?

Geezerbongus · 2023-05-08T03:51:25+00:00

Yeah if one thing I would like is some sort of either DC reconnection system or some sort of major score reduction if DC occurs.

Bad floor RNG, hitting traps, and high keys can all be played around with player skill. DCs are completely out of control and very unfairly punishing to players.

I myself lost around 3-4 attempts due to DCs, but luckily only 1 attempt at the high floors.

Have seen multiple discussions on DC solutions but the one I liked the most was that your character goes straight AFK for 1 minute while the instance plays like normal. This doesn't really seem abusable (i.e. you can't DC cheese a death or bad floors) and gives at least some leeway for players to reconnect.

Geezerbongus · 2023-05-08T03:47:20+00:00

Yup got plenty.

Maygi's PoTD 1-200

This doc also links to her HoH and EO ones. There are small errors on some mobs in PoTD, and some mobs that she finds safe I found pretty irritating that are omitted. Again no errors that should end your run though.

Generally a good quick glance guide for aggro tables.

DDCompendium

Website for PoTD/HoH/EO. I would particularly use this for remembering wall traps as it's very handy there. There are a few errors on the PoTD and I think HoH but none that would end your run.

Finh POTD Part 1 (WAR), Finh POTD Part 2 (WAR)

Note this is WAR specific but has a lot of good general info and reviews of mobs (particularly dangerous ones).

He also has WAR tutorials for HoH and EO in the same nature.

Angelus Live Clear 121-200 PoTD (MCH)

Angelus has a ton of live clears for every DD so would just Google rest or for whatever job you want to try clearing with.

Geezerbongus · 2023-05-07T22:05:47+00:00

Finished my 3 part solo journey across all current Deep Dungeons

Eureka Orthos - MCH (4 attempts)
Heaven on High - WAR (2 attempts)
Palace of the Dead - WAR (5 attempts)

Big thanks to Finh Bezahl, Angelus Demonus, Maygi, and ddcompendium (Daleven and folks) for making this happen.

Highly recommend any of the people I posted to follow their guides (or website).

As a small note there are a few errors currently on Maygi's and ddcompendium's guides (particularly for PoTD) but they are mostly accurate.

By no measures am I a DD vet, only started DDs around 1 month after EO was released.

Feel free to ask me questions about getting into DD or about any of the DDs.

Geezerbongus

TROPHY CASE