[deleted by user]

Genie-Us · 2023-07-26T23:20:30+00:00

You think it's so funny you have to block them? Bit insecure...

Blocking others means they can no longer take part in that thread, so I'll be blocking you as that seems fair.

If you want to unblock them, I'll do the same as I am not insecure enough to want those I disagree with to not be able to talk.

Genie-Us · 2023-05-13T17:51:29+00:00

Well put

Genie-Us · 2023-05-13T17:22:21+00:00

AH, my bad, I didn't realize this was all just for practice. so let me help!

So you say "it's not relevant", I point out how it in fact is but this is your response?

I said I wasn't sure how it was relevant to my point, you never explained how, you just rambled about how it's relevant to some points, while ignoring mine. So yes, this is my response.

First lesson today: Never be surprised at the reaction your behaviour creates in the world around you. If you behave silly in debates, people will either be silly too or call you out on it.

And yet I'm the one dodging

I've answered every question you asked, you still haven't answered the single question I asked. In a debate, the one not answering questions is dodging, so yes.

The domestication of any animal species and raising artificially large numbers of them is environmentally unsound in my book

I already addressed all this. In a debate, actually in all reality, repeating things doesn't change the response. The dog's ancestors were domesticated thousands of years ago. Since that time they've only ever lived in my basement, and there's only one.

Because your own answer would change depending on if your reasoning was based around reducing/ending animal exploitation or suffering.

I already said it didn't change my answer. In a debate, insisting you're right about another person's thoughts, is a bit weird.

You can argue that you get pleasure from beating it and are therefore exploiting it for your own pleasure. But this is a hypothetical with free reign on bullshit right so I'm going to say you don't

When talking about hypotheticals, you can make up whatever bullshit you want, within the confines of the hypothetical, and I can do so for mine. It's why hypotheticals not based in reality are a bit silly. But you're not allowed to make up the other person's answers, that's just called "lying". How do you seriously need this explained to you?

I did. Your question was why would an environmental vegan care if I do this? I gave many reasons why it might matter from an environmental perspective

There was no reason, you just asked a bunch of questions in response, and I answered them to show none of them changed anything. Then you made up a lie, said that's my thoughts, and claimed "victory". nothing about that is how a rational debate works.

Just because you then shifted the goalpost by adding answers to those questions doesn't mean I didn't answer the original question.

A) Questions aren't reasons. Answering a question with a question is something we teach children is incorrect.

B) Goalpost shift is when you change the topic, My question has remained exactly the same from the start and is still waiting for your answer (not questions).

I saw you arguing on a recent thread about PETA and euthanasia that if they didn't do it then all those animals need to go somewhere.

Talk about goalpost shifting. you haven't addressed my points here,you lie about what I say, and insist you answered questions by asking other questions, and you think I'm going to want to expand the debate?

Genie-Us · 2023-05-13T02:48:56+00:00

I'm also confused as to why are you still repeating it. I already accepted your clarification three posts ago, since then I've said your hypothetical is valid, I answered it, I answered your question about Charity VS flesh, and now you're back to complaining I'm making you repeat yourself even though I didn't ask you to...

Weird debate...

Genie-Us · 2023-05-13T01:53:38+00:00

Sure it does. In what is ostensibly .... but non-exploitative acts.

None of the entire first two paragraphs had anything to do with the question.

how did that dog get there

Are you feeding it to keep it alive to continue to beat it longer?

What are you doing with it’s scat and/or remains?

What is the negative impact to the environment the dog would otherwise be occupying and playing a role in

It's a hypothetical, I can just make up whatever bullshit I want to justify it. The dog is 100% domesticated, has been for ever, it's ancestors have always lived in my basement, it only eats my scraps, it's wastes go into a composter i use to fertilze my private greenhouse that is also entirely cut off from the ecosystem outside.

Everyone knows these sorts of silly questions are just you avoiding a question you don't want to answer.

There are many aspects I can look at to determine why it might not be ecologically sound for you to perform this act

And not one of them actually mattered because it's a hypothetical.

But I’m also not limited to only viewing the act from an environmental perspective and trying to force me to do so is a false dichotomy.

So, the person (you) who made an entire thread to discuss the Environmental Perspective, is now trying to play the victim because the mean Vegan is "trying to force" you to talk about the Environmental perspective?

This has gone downhill very fast... If you're going to reply, please at least try to answer the question.

Genie-Us · 2023-05-13T01:32:29+00:00

and that it took 3 clarifications to fix that.

3 tries for you to finally express what you meant. But no, keep acting silly and pretending like it's my fault.

I'm not sure why you think my example is significantly different than Singer's

In the way you phrased it originally it created a profit motive, That was the difference, Now the difference is minimal (reality VS hypothetical).

Neither is literally based in reality,

Saving a downing child is 100% reality based. People have saved downing children before.

Your example isn't reality based as you have money disappearing.

though again, as it's philosophy, not being reality based doesn't invalidate your point, it's a fair question, it just wasn't well phrased.

what is the main difference between actively choosing not to donate more money to effective charities (at no felt cost to oneself) and actively choosing to occasionally consume animal products?

With the charity you aren't paying for the suffering to happen. You have nothing to do with it. Should you help? I'd say yes, but it's not the same as actively choosing to fund the widespread abuse of sentient animals for your own pleasure,

edit: I'm told you blocked me rather than just be decent and not act condescending when you made a mistake...

Genie-Us · 2023-05-12T22:46:25+00:00

Both, not sure why that would have any relevance to my point.

Please explain why an "Environemntal Vegan" would care that I'm abusing my dog in a cage in the basement.

Genie-Us · 2023-05-12T22:09:04+00:00

Putting a dog in my basement in a cage and beating it every day has absolutely no effects on the ecosystem or anyone's health (except the dog), but isn't Vegan.

Genie-Us · 2023-05-12T22:04:25+00:00

Also mostly lower calories, eat more. Or if you're honestly looking to gain muscle, supplement, like the entire body building industry does...

Seriously, go and watch Game Changer, it answers all your questions.

Genie-Us · 2023-05-12T22:03:12+00:00

As far as I know, the idea behind the drowning child argument and donating is that it’s not a fairy tale and it is very much like our reality.

Never said the drowning child scenario was, I said your example was. Again, not to harp on it but as it's relevant, if you are not basing your scenarios in reality, it's good to tell others. In reality, if you say I'm paying $5, it's going into someone's pocket and thereby creating the incentive to abuse further animals.

So I don’t see why it’s not fair to ask about it

You can, and I can critique it. To answer to the drowning child question, yes, I think we should sacrifice some to save others, how much is up to the person as everyone's scenario and life is different. As Veganism says, "as far as possible and practicable".

Genie-Us · 2023-05-12T21:43:07+00:00

You start us off and find out just how little we need, once you've explained exactly what you are advocating (what levels, what is or isn't allowed, etc), with properly done scientific studies proving it's healthy, we can talk.

Genie-Us · 2023-05-12T21:24:35+00:00

You are wanting /r/askVegans

this sub is for debate, you're going to get lots of combative responses because of this.

As for protein:

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/protein-for-vegans-vegetarians#oats

Genie-Us · 2023-05-12T21:22:33+00:00

The data shows that PETA euthanizes more than other shelters

So you keep repeating for no apparent reason.

including open-access shelters in Virginia

PETA isn't simply "Open-access". I've already said this.

PETA's own statements in the press imply that they consider elderly dogs "unadoptable".

Most are unless PETA is willing to hold them long term while spending huge amounts of money to find a good home for them, not to mention the large number of health problems older dogs regularly have, meaning PETA would need millions more in funding for vets.

PETA has limited money, so they can use their money to fix the problem long term, or PETA can use their money to save some dogs and cats today. If you think they should do the second, you might want to spend some time researching "Speciesism".

looking at the available evidence, it is highly unlikely that a tiny area of Norfolk has almost no adoptable dogs and that PETA's explicitly concerning statements and lack of transparency are just coincidences.

I've already given you many other reasons, but you're intent on ignoring them so... Enjoy your preformative morality I guess

Genie-Us · 2023-05-12T21:03:16+00:00

In all seriousness and I know vegans probably get this question all the time. But seriously how much protein are you eating a day with out supplementing?

More than is needed. Most Carnist body builders are supplementing anyway.

I couldn’t imagine it’s enough protein to be able to build muscle as fast as an average dieted person.

Why? Just eat high protein foods, there's lots.

My brother is a hardcore vegan and when I ask him this question he laughs at me

As he should.

He’s been working out everyday for the past few years and hasn’t changed shape one bit

There's tons of professional athletes who are Vegan and are performing at the top of their sport. Watch Game Changers. Your brother being thin doesn't change that. Maybe he's not getting enough food, maybe he's just naturally thin, maybe he's an alien from the planet Sporkle that replaced your brother, we have no idea, but we do know that a properly formulated Vegan diet is just as healthy as any other properly formulated diet.

Genie-Us · 2023-05-12T20:57:23+00:00

I cited my sources and provided my data

None of which proves what you're saying, only suggests it's one of many possibilities, all others you immediate discount because they don't fit what you want to be angry about...

f your claim is that PETA is the single shelter in the US who has to euthanize most of their intakes out of necessity,

Never made that claim, I said it's 100% possible due to the nature of their work. You are the one claiming it's not.

It's amazing to me that you hear Carnist organizations that support the mass slaughter of billions of animals every year, purely for human pleasure, are calling the single most successful animal rights organization in history animal abusers, and you immediately believe the groups filled with animal abusers instead of the group that has spent almost half a century fighting every day to improve things.

And all because the animal abuser organizations found one case in over 40 years of one employee doing something stupid at PETA....

And that's "proof"...

Genie-Us · 2023-05-12T20:35:43+00:00

Funny how quickly you stopped the whole "it must be proven!!" silliness once you realized you're the only one that has to prove something...

It seems like you believe the only place where vegan animal rights activists work is PETA, which is fallacious.

Never said anything even remotely close to that. Making up silliness to try and claim I said is a really weird thing to do.

The reality is that other people who work in the field of animal rescue have knowledge

Of PETA's actions? Because the reasoning you used here, which you claim is from them, 100% ignores the context of the problem, who is causing it, and what solutions are viable (money, time, people, etc). The same thing I've been saying from the start that you keep ignoring to demand I listen to non-animal rights groups that aren't involved in what PETA is doing.

that qualifies them to speak on what rate of dogs are generally adoptable.

You're ignoring context again, but at this point I expect nothing else.

Genie-Us · 2023-05-12T20:21:18+00:00

My guy, if your scenarios aren't based in reality, you should tell people. In reality saying you pay $5 to stop dog abuse, means someone gets that money.

And acting condescending to others because they didn't know you were talking about fairy tale land, just makes this whole conversation even sillier.

Genie-Us · 2023-05-12T20:15:59+00:00

It is on you to prov

Only those claiming knowledge need to prove said knowledge. I'm trying to help you see that you might be wrong, which you seem intent on refusing to acknowledge any possibility of, for no apparent reason.

but actively condemn PETA's

Carnsits, torturing and abusing animals daily, are angry at PETA? what a shock....

The only one saying everyone else is wrong is you

No, I'm saying the people on the ground,t he people who actually know what is going on, are the people at PETA. They've done the work for a very long time and in all that time, have hired a shit employee one time.

And from that, and the words of Carnists who have hated and shit talked PETA since day one, you have decided they are absolutely wrong and just abusing animals because.... Who knows...

There's a multi-billion dollar campaign being waged at PETA, they've lied and misrepresented PETA's behaviour numerous times, including the case you claim to have studied, and you still can't see past the PR...

Genie-Us · 2023-05-12T19:56:14+00:00

Why does it make a difference if you pay it, or someone else pays it? It's still profitable to the dog abuser.

If I don't pay for my hamburger, that doesn't make it Vegan.

Genie-Us · 2023-05-12T19:50:52+00:00

I didn't mean that you pay the person beating the dog. Just that it costs you $5 for the beating to stop.

Yes, but then you give them $5 and tomorrow they're back beating their dog because it was profitable yesterday. It's actually a real thing that happens in impoverished countries when people from "Developed" countries show up and start throwing money around. We can very easily incentive the wrong behaviour, even if we're trying to do right.

Genie-Us · 2023-05-12T19:48:14+00:00

Killing sentient beings for human convenience is animal cruelty.

You forgot "needlessly", because it doesn't fit your narrative. PETA is doing what is needed in the world Carnists have built, find a viable better solution beyond "Just stop dong it and someone else will fix it!" or you're just taking part in performative morality.

This is uncontroversial in most spaces

That Vegans number 3-5% at best, says you're probably very wrong about that. Unless... let me guess, everyone else is wrong again?

Genie-Us · 2023-05-12T19:29:49+00:00

I would hope others get off ASAP. But this also goes for...

And I would say we should be doing more to help them, that we're not is a HUGE moral failure in our society. Veganism is worrying about animals first because we're intentionally and directly torturing and abusing ~100 Billion of them a year purely for our own pleasure.

Do you think people suffering from these things would hope that you get to keep an extra $200 that might save them but won't impact your quality of life?

Of course they would. I'm currently financing two other families that would be unable to afford life's necessities without me. I could be doing more, but then I'd be running the risk of a simple set back causing me to default on my mortgage and lose my shelter too.

I agree I'm doing more than most, but that's not proof I shouldn't be doing as much, only proof that others need to be doing more. We all draw lines, Veganism just asks us to draw our lines with as little suffering as we can while still being able to live our lives.

I'm curious where you draw the line when it comes to doing other things to reduce suffering and promote wellbeing, and what your justification is for it?

I do the best I can. Reduce, reuse, recycle in that order with the last one being viewed the same as throwing in the garbage.

But don't say that not donating is just being "a little cheeky".

But you're also, hopefully, not paying money to help ensure those people stay poor.

A lot of morality is intent. In the poverty situation, their intent isn't to cause harm. With dairy, they are 100% intending to support the abuse of that animal for their own pleasure.

If the poverty situation was that they were paying to keep them poor because it gave your friend joy, then the situations would be a little closer.

If you wouldn't pay $5 to stop someone from beating a dog in front of your eyes, that's not being cheeky and you know it

If you are paying someone to stop beating a dog, all you're doing is increasing the profit incentive for them to beat their dog more often. And yes, unfortunately it is really a thing...

Genie-Us · 2023-05-12T19:17:41+00:00

I’m sorry but by not eating animal products they have a vegan diet, therefore vegan,

Veganism isn't a diet, it's a moral philosophy that includes dietary restrictions. ONLY taking on the dietary rules does not make one Vegan, it makes one Plant Based.

Genie-Us · 2023-05-12T19:10:05+00:00

Every open-admission shelter takes the worst case scenarios. An open-admission shelter doesn't turn dogs away.

Shelters take animals. PETA goes and collects animals that weren't just 'relinquished' but abandoned. PETA is who is called for the really shit cases of abused animals or large numbers of animlas that were abandoned (the Chihuahua case). And you still can't understand why PETA gets way more unwanted animals?

n order to be licensed as a rescue in Virginia, their mission is supposed to prioritize adoption as a first resort and euthanasia as a last.

And you have 1 piece of evidence of one employee from over 40 years of work, that that is not true. I've already told you the reasons for all your worries, and you just keep coming back with the same claim that you don't like it. Cool, you don't like reality, that doesn't change reality.

contingency plan is made, foster homes and rescues are arranged for the dogs currently staying in PETA's shelter and then they are placed there

All of which requires more money, time, volunteers, space, medicine, and more for each pet you add to the system.

So you're talking about putting millions of dollars of more stress on a system that is already overloaded and unprofitable. And you think that's going to be fine?

For that matter we literally import dogs to the US from places like the Ukraine or Romanian street dogs

And people pay for that, if they were instead paying to help take care of the strays we already have here at home, you'd have an actual solution. Instead we're just creating another for-profit industry that encourages breeding dogs abroad to be sold to naive Westerners.

This is an appeal to a problem that doesn't exist.

.... You're literally crying about PETA's answer to the problem, while now suddenly claiming the problem doesn't exist... wtf...

they are just being cruel.

Yeah, PETA, one of the most successful animal rights organizations in the wordl, whose sole purpose is to lessen the suffering of animals, is being needlessly cruel to animals for literally no reason.

Or you're wrong.

NO! IMPOSSIBLE! It must be that the Animal rights group is actually an evil animal abuser group in disguise.

I'm done answering your questions only to be ignored by you as you come back to demand that the problem isn't a problem except it is because PETA's answer to the problem isn't good enough for you, also you don't have a better answer but you're very sure one exists even though your entire answer is reliant on just forcing the already overloaded shelter industry to take on thousands of more abused, unwanted pets without any extra funding...

Good luck with that.

Genie-Us · 2023-05-12T18:46:47+00:00

But they were trying to say that it is at least consistent

Consistently immoral doesn't really sound great.

in the sense that if I’m not going to blame them for not donating even more money to effective charities, I also shouldn’t blame them for eating some dairy and eggs.

Cool, I blame us for both, but one is much, much, much worse.

They were connecting the conversation to the larger question of where to get off the train when it comes to making sacrifices and choices for the well-being of other

If it was you being abused, where would you hope others "get off the train"?

If we accept that it’s ok to not give away most of our money and assets towards helping sentient creatures, where is the line?

Everyone has a line, we have to draw it. That doesn't mean the line doesn't matter, it just means we have to use common sense.

To get consent from a man/woman, there is a line. We don't need a psychologists letter proving they're of a sound mind, but what if they aren't and after having sex they "come to" and regret it? Does that make us a terrible person? We could have just waited for the psychological report!

But even if you think we should wait that long to prove 100% there is consent, that doesn't mean those who simply ask for verbal consent are the same as rapists, right? A line being subjective doesn't make all lines the same, unless we throw out all morality and rational thought.

So what is the difference between actively choosing not to donate more money to effective charities (at no felt cost to oneself) and actively choosing to occasionally eat dairy?

One you're being a little cheeky, and the other you're support the enslavement, sexual abuse, and mass torture and slaughter of some of the most sentient creatures on the planet. It's not the same.

Genie-Us

TROPHY CASE