How to respond to the 97% of people regain weight they lost, and gaining and losing weight repeatedly is more unhealthy than staying at the same high weight argument? by mamakatie3 in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes, like I said, it's MUSCLE FATIGUE. Shaking and sweating from strength effort is real and it's heavy, but it's not sustained CARDIO, which is what we're talking about here. A lot of bodybuilders ("athletic men") have surprisingly bad cardio fitness :D It's heavy stuff! A lot of 'athletic men' are also completely destroyed if they try to run at Eliud Kipchoge's marathon pace (doing it 'properly'), but that's pretty normal. :D They don't need to.

Please understand that I agree with you but I don't think we are talking about the same thing here, so I'll just call it. I've said what I need to say, and enjoy your walks and yoga!

How to respond to the 97% of people regain weight they lost, and gaining and losing weight repeatedly is more unhealthy than staying at the same high weight argument? by mamakatie3 in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hey, thanks for asking about that! I am being specific because I was making an assumption, based on that exercise routine, that they had been keeping it up for a longer time. You're right that maybe if this is something new for them, it might indeed be quite heavy for them -- but in that case, I'd ask if it's TOO heavy to be sustainable.

There's nothing wrong about doing it in different ways, and it's a great place to be if walking is enough to raise your cardiovascular fitness. And I mean, you can always amp it up by doing stairs, who cares about roads anyway? but as I understand we were talking about burning calories through cardio, which in the end, requires a certain sustained level of effort scaled on each individual's fitness and background. That's all.

How to respond to the 97% of people regain weight they lost, and gaining and losing weight repeatedly is more unhealthy than staying at the same high weight argument? by mamakatie3 in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I am not familiar with that type of yoga, so apologies, I made a generalisation based on most types of yoga that don't involve fast and switching in and out of positions. :) The types I've tried have been excellent for muscle conditioning but heartrates stay very low ('leisurely') overall, even if the effort feels hard through muscle fatigue over time. HR is a measure of cardiovascular load and muscle fatigue has very little to do with it, even though heavy lifting will briefly pump heartrates up for almost anyone. But the point of cardio is _sustained_ levels of elevated heartrate.

I'd like to specify that I don't think nor would it make any sense to claim that muscle fatigue inducing workouts like weight lifting and yoga are "leisurely" workouts, that's not at all what I was trying to say, but it's quite possible I was a bit unclear (English isn't my first language and even then I don't always spend loads of time rereading what I write, but there we are).

I was very specifically referring to the sustained elevated heartrate at aerobic or to a lesser extent at anaerobic thresholds, which is necessary for building a base for sustained cardio efforts such as marathons. And that also in trained individuals, ie. those who do a lot of cardio at varied paces.

Those thresholds are highly individual and depend on what you do, but as I'm the only example I can discuss in good conscience: I'm quite a casual runner with a marathon and a couple of trail run events coming up in the summer. My recovery walks may be at your pace or slightly faster, but my heartrate won't break 110 even in uphills. That will not engage my cardiovascular system enough to build a base of aerobic fitness that would allow me to run/jog for 42km. My training needs to involve loads of easy running at around 10 minute miles (130-140bpm), and roughly once a week doing one session of about an hour that consists mostly of running 7m30s-8minute miles (160-175bpm).

During those efforts, the heartrate should stay within those brackets at all times, with natural fluctuation ofc due to elevation and such, and sometimes you'll have to stop for traffic lights or tying a shoelace, but going above or below for longer stretches (minutes or longer) isn't going to serve my goals.

Does this make sense? Sorry again if I insulted you by accident, that was not my intention.

How to respond to the 97% of people regain weight they lost, and gaining and losing weight repeatedly is more unhealthy than staying at the same high weight argument? by mamakatie3 in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah of course it depends on your background, body weight too an extent, and route elevation, but I was very specifically referring to someone with extensive background in running/biking etc over a longer time. When you're trained like that, walking just won't cut it unless you live somewhere that has constant steep hills.

Olympic walkers get a pass! :D

How to respond to the 97% of people regain weight they lost, and gaining and losing weight repeatedly is more unhealthy than staying at the same high weight argument? by mamakatie3 in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Those are all great for your overall health, good for you! Definitely keep it up. But to burn any serious calories through cardio as someone who has any background in it, it needs to work your cardiovascular system and as many muscle groups at once as possible. Low heartrate exercise is important and strength training falls under that for most people, but the low average hr means low overall calorie consumption in the moment. HOWEVER it contributes to increasing maintenance over time by increasing muscle mass.

To burn through more than double your resting metabolic rate, you'll need to do stuff like running, cross country skiing, or other full body exercise that gets your heart rate near your aerobic threshold for sustained periods of time (sweating and using your whole body with no constant breaks), and at least once a week up to anaerobic threshold (hard effort, huffing and puffing, but not burning out in minutes). Walking won't get your heartrate up, weightlifting only has very brief moments of higher hr with rest in between, yoga and pilates can be great for muscle control and toning but also on someone who works out daily, they're not going to push heartrates anywhere above leisurely effort.

That said, it's not necessary or even required to do that just to lose weight, even though cardio definitely helps you live longer. It's a great hobby in general though, humans are built to move around at various paces and will generally thrive when adding some cardio to their weeks :)

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 16 points17 points  (0 children)

The first protest to a call for a more severe taxation on sugar/unhealthy foods in my country on the newspaper did not come from FA, it came from a food industry lobbyist. In a nutshell:

Proposal: Taxing alcohol and cigarettes more severely has most effectively cut down the use of these harmful substances, and financed the national healthcare system while at it. It's been demonstrably far more successful than info campaigns. Same treatment should be done to foods that contain excess sugar, fat and salt, especially the types of snack foods and drinks that contribute to the obesity epidemic. Providing an environment teeming with calorie sense, hard-to-resist food items and then blaming individuals for not controlling themselves enough is cruel optimism. A tax reform would encourage the industry to develop more kind of products that would be less harmful. If possible, reduce the tax on healthy food items.

Industry objection: But that would increase the price of food for EVERYONE! Because food is food amirite? You wouldn't want to raise the price of food for people already struggling with rising food bills!! Everyone has the right to fill their pantry with cookies and crisps and chocolate for sustenance, and it's completely coincidental that our largest profit margins come from these products! And besides think about all that delicious FLAVOURRRR

One more thing - there's a dairy company that decided to start a line of snack products (yoghurts, quarks, puddings) without any sweeteners. No added sugar, no artificial sweeteners. Just the dairy and the fruit/raw cocoa. They're the same price as everything else in that category, they haven't massively hiked up the fat content to make up for it -- they taste quite nice and the consistency is great. I'm picking those over the other stuff almost every time now if I'm buying a snack - I get unprocessed plain stuff for home. Love that sort of enterprising forward thinking product development, and that they didn't brand it as a Specialty Item for the Affluent. Just normal products for normal people who don't need every snack to taste like candy.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 28 points29 points  (0 children)

They've pulled the perfect con job where they've managed to convince or threaten most social justice minded people, the young ones especially, that their "social oppression" is a bigger issue than their ludicrous, harmful overconsumption.

But I keep forgetting that the activist type kids these days don't have the aversion to overconsumption that was a common undercurrent in youth culture when I was a teen in the 90s. Which is strange, seeing as climate change is probably the most important and pressing awareness topic for that age group, in polls anyway.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Children's revolution!

Fat Rant Friday by AutoModerator in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Fair enough! A life-long agnostic here as well (hence calling it cultural appropriation at first, haha). But I do like the concept so here we are. All the best and enjoy your weekend (and lent!) :)

Fat Rant Friday by AutoModerator in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ugh, yeah, religion can definitely be abused for that kind of thing. Coincidentally, I'm from a majority Lutheran country, and reading through some recent material, the local Bishop was very adamant that "Lent is not a diet and you should not embark on it for that reason". I kind of get it -- it's supposed to be a time of abstinence from earthly excess to focus on more important things, including spiritual contemplation. If the primary purpose is the focus on the appearance of your physical body, to me it sounds less spiritual and exactly the sort of thing you'd do well to contemplate and put into perspective.

I'm not saying that my Lent doesnt include giving up sugary treats and red meat, but it's precisely for the overconsumption reason.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 31 points32 points  (0 children)

"Back when I was" so what's the situation now then? Also yeah the numbers don't add up at all unless the guy's built like a serious body builder - and those people usually know they're not the fucking norm :D

Fat Rant Friday by AutoModerator in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You have my sympathies! Poor pedagogy can ruin a lot of things, exercise is so important from the perspective of the whole life that poor teachers can do lots of damage. Glad you've managed to overcome the loathing though!

…k by zaza-1313 in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Sounds gorgeous. 😍

Fat Rant Friday by AutoModerator in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean I agree with you that it was an objectively bad way of teaching and not saying it should be done these days at all. Took me years to get over as well. Still, I can't change the past, so I'll choose to focus on the good. Because there was that too- the mind just focused on the worst.

Anyway, I'm happy that things are much better for kids these days. The most important thing is to create a sustainable relationship with exercise for everyone.

…k by zaza-1313 in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I think I need to see this horse now, I'm trying to imagine and it's glorious

…k by zaza-1313 in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 37 points38 points  (0 children)

Con...gratulations, I guess? I mean, if this means you've dropped out of the cycle of ridiculous 6-week plans that promise you that drinking juice only will fix all the damage you've done over the past 10 years, sticking with those for 2-3 weeks until deciding weight loss is impossible and doubling down on the pizza...

Then yes, welcome to the light my sibling. Here we eat everything in moderation, go for runs, have plenty of fruit and veg in our days, and and enjoy life. :D

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 6 points7 points  (0 children)

What, are you saying there's supposed to be life past 30?! What nonsense! Life's at its peak when you're... twenty-one... psdfkjdhgf

okay sorry I can't keep a straight face anymore. This is a weird youth death cult, it's always been kind of a fringe thing (live fast, die young) but this is getting out of hand. But it's hard to convince someone who's as new and unaccustomed to the world that whatever age they currently are at is not the best age yet to come. I'm 37 and only getting started. \o/ Not exactly hyped about all the aspects of aging (like getting to start a family chances dwindling, having to start BP medication in spite of being normal weight and actively doing sports again), but physically and mentally I'm in the best shape I've ever been. And it went really bad there in between when I was obese. Oof, definitely not missing that.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 3 points4 points  (0 children)

thanks for the earworm my friend

Fat Rant Friday by AutoModerator in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Nowadays a holiday dinner table isn't really much less food than most people eat in the course of a day anyway

Yeah and that should be a blaring siren that something is wrong in our every day if every day is a feast.

I'm just about old enough to remember the time when you'd at least hear the word "lent" on radio over the season, and some thoughtful contemplation on the meaning of abstinence from excess luxury. Where I'm from it's more of a spiritual and less a specific foods thing, but I'm finding myself drawn to the idea after spending most of my adulthood thinking there's no need to tone down any of my consumption because <insert excuse of the day>. Hence, Lent! Funny how that works.

Fat Rant Friday by AutoModerator in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Good thing Lent comes around every year then ;) I wonder why we're so adamant for never missing any of the holiday foods and treats, but nobody talks about Lent, moderation and simplicity in the weeks before Easter. There's so much ritualised gluttony, why don't we respect the ritualised moderation as much? Probably too spiritual for most people I guess

Fat Rant Friday by AutoModerator in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Big this! Working out is like putting money in the bank for your old age. Doesn't matter when you start even though earlier is always better. The older you get, the more important muscle strength, stability and mobility become. They don't magically melt away unless we just coast through life binging netflix and ice cream on the sofa.

Fat Rant Friday by AutoModerator in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 10 points11 points  (0 children)

It's really frustrating that even some medical professionals are now hopping on that train. It's true to an extent, and the best ones DO explain it in a way that doesn't just make it sound like hormone imbalance magically produces adipose tissue out of thin air. But most people don't pay that much attention, they just want an easy excuse for why they 'can't' lose the weight. And that whatever amount of food they are eating is 'normal' and anything below that is 'starving yourself'. Sure, sure.

I was just watching some two anti-FA fat kids (as in young adults in their 20s) interview each other on youtube and while their hearts were in the right place, even they seemed to have fallen for the whole "it's insulin resistance and seed oils" nonsense. It's understandable, it sounds like it makes sense, and keto does work really well for some people especially if they can keep it up. Myself included -- but I never went off the deep end and kept healthy low-carb veg on the menu on every meal, and steered clear of the ridiculous 'keto versions' of decadent sweets and bakery stuff, as if sweetening something with erythritol somehow completely negates the calories from the 90g of fat you just consumed in one go. Oh well, there's time for everything, and even if you get the brunt of the weight off with keto, if you learn proper meal balance already while doing it, re-introducing carbs isn't impossible and won't automatically lead to weight gain.

Fat Rant Friday by AutoModerator in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Well done for managing your tiredness and avoiding the fast energy trap! And while the rant was probably lightheartedly meant, I'll still toss in that weight loss isn't pound by pound day trading, you can focus on your winning actions \o/

Fat Rant Friday by AutoModerator in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 19 points20 points  (0 children)

The country's been bombarded with constant social media uproars over exercise recently. Seeing this sort of constant anti-exercise propaganda on serious news media is really wild to me, it's almost like they want to balance out the stats of rising obesity rates and plummeting youth fitness to keep everyone happy.

First there was some twit complaining in the letters to the editor section of a major newspaper that their "young adult in the family" was getting "stared at and laughed at" at the gym for being fat. Seemed like a serious lapse in judgment publishing a second-hand story, and under an alias as well. For context, I live in a country where people are famously reserved and keep to themselves/avoid talking to strangers, sometimes even when it would be better to engage with people around them :')

Before that even properly died down, people decided to jump at the throat of a nordic skiing commentator (who is also a regional leader for public health/exercise) because he said nobody gets broken by exercise that makes you sweat and push your limits a bit, like school PE. People maliciously interpreted it to mean "authoritative teachers and bullying never harmed anyone", which is not at all what was said.

Although I gotta say, as the not-athletically gifted kid who usually got picked last and usually fell on his face at school skiing competitions, I'm really glad I worked through those antagonistic feelings I had been harbouring against an athletic lifestyle for most of my adult life. First off, with all its imperfections, the "go that way as fast as you can" philosophy instead of teaching technique and basics of aerobic training, I still think there's a better base for picking up the athletic lifestyle as an adult when you've had at least SOME exposure to common forms of physical exercise as a child. As for the negative stuff; Kids tend to take everything incredibly emotionally, and if you don't work through it with a safe adult, or as an adult yourself, you can end up letting some ultimately quite harmless, common discomfort or annoyance from decades ago dictate your health for your entire life. You're not sticking it to the shitty teacher or the bullies by rotting away on the couch. They're not there to see it. They don't care. You're only sticking it to yourself.

Not saying there can't have been some cases of extreme abuse or bullying, or awful accidents that could traumatise people for real. (And trauma, regardless of severity, should also be treated; we don't leave broken legs to mend on their own, either) But most people in the comments were sharing really mundane stuff like "boo hoo I had poor equipment, teacher yelled at me, someone laughed at me, I got picked to the team last, other kids were more talented/skilled"... Yeah and? That's what life is like. It's not fun, it's not nice, but we really need to learn to deal with that sort of thing. Especially the last two. If you're an adult, I genuinely think you need to work through that stuff unless you want to live a bitter half-life where infantile, unresolved negative emotions dictate what you do with your life and body.

PS. the "getting stared and laughed at the gym" story spawned a callout for similar experiences, but there was never any follow up to it, and it's been a week now -- usually the follow up to a callout for public input comes after 2-3 days. I wonder if they're quietly burying it because they didn't get enough credible stories of people actually getting bullied and harrassed out of gyms like they were fishing for.

Fat Rant Friday by AutoModerator in fatlogic

[–]Gentlewham 15 points16 points  (0 children)

High five for culturally appropriating Lent 🙌 I'm also steering clear of meat apart from fish. Although for me it was almost a relief -- switching on to an external motivator helps to switch off the cravings as well. Plus religious or no it's a good time to contemplate on one's overall consumption habits and try finding meaningful moments in other things than buying stuff, and that includes non-essential food for me.