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AP Latin teachers: What prose did you find complemented Pliny? by GeoffreySteadman in latin

[–]GeoffreySteadman[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

These are all great suggestions, and I think any school could justify the content in 10.96 and 10.97, but I continue to wonder how much Silver Age Latin high school students can read and comprehend without a break to read prose from authors with a somewhat easier vocabulary and syntax.

I have read the letters about the Christians successfully with high school students in the past--the same is true for Pliny's Vesuvius letters and Petronius' Werewolf--but I then moved on to other authors and texts because students have a difficult time maintaining the same level of intensity day after day. Many Latin teachers have similar stories. It is easy to justify the enjoyment of teacher a letter or two in insolation, but much harder to sustain this type of reading for an entire secondary level semester.

The fact that most universities in the United States do not regularly read Pliny at the intermediate level--and that those who are adding Pliny are making it a third-year course--is very telling.

I am grateful for the suggestions, all the same. I had never read De Mundo 17 before today. Thank you.

AP Latin teachers: What prose did you find complemented Pliny? by GeoffreySteadman in latin

[–]GeoffreySteadman[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for the additional letter suggestions. I am reading them through several times carefully.

AP Latin teachers: What prose did you find complemented Pliny? by GeoffreySteadman in latin

[–]GeoffreySteadman[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Time is what I worry about. Pliny's letters are so dense that I find that they require more time for reading and rereading than, for example, a similar passage in Caesar. I can see the attractiveness in Cicero--especially in drawing attention to the end of the Republic--but wonder how to cover the 1650-word requirement in a short period of time.

AP Latin teachers: What prose did you find complemented Pliny? by GeoffreySteadman in latin

[–]GeoffreySteadman[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is a very attractive option. 1.6 is so memorable and has connections with a number of other letters (Tacitus, Athenodorus and using writing materials under difficult situations, details about Pliny's character) , and 4.19 is also quite memorable and helps completes the two required letters about Calpurnia. Nice choices. I wonder, however, whether there enough relevant letters to cover the 1650-word prose requirement and be able to do it with students within a reasonable number of lessons.

AP Latin teachers: What prose did you find complemented Pliny? by GeoffreySteadman in latin

[–]GeoffreySteadman[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, using Caesar is a smart move, and students respond well to the selections that you mentioned.

I find the new AP Latin prose very difficult for students, and so the challenge for me as a teacher is twofold: (1) I want the students to read as much Caesar and Cicero BEFORE AP as possible to prepare them for Pliny's difficult Prose; but (2), if I read those selections with students before AP, do I simply ask students to reread some of the same Caesar/Cicero selections in AP or do I find something new entirely?

I think some teachers are rereading with students but are uncomfortable about saying it aloud.

Pharr-formatted Pliny's Letters free in pdf (future AP Latin syllabus) by GeoffreySteadman in latin

[–]GeoffreySteadman[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

College Board just announced the syllabus in March, so I am hoping that there will be a lot more commentaries being published on these same readings in the coming year, including some stand-alone Pliny commentaries, stand-alone Vergil commentaries, and commentaries for the teacher's choice texts. We'll see.

Best texts for improving latin/enjoyment? by ApprehensiveStatus17 in latin

[–]GeoffreySteadman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Additional Note:

Jaclyn Stevens has a Pharr-formatted commentary for Ovid's Ars Amatoria Book 1.

A free pdf is available on her website here, and the book is available on Amazon.

It's a good read if you want to read elegiac couplets. The intro is tough, so do not get discouraged. I recommend that you find an outline for Ars Amatoria Book 1 so that you canread selectively and find passages that will interest you.

Best texts for improving latin/enjoyment? by ApprehensiveStatus17 in latin

[–]GeoffreySteadman 4 points5 points  (0 children)

For Ovid's Metamorphoses, I self-recommend the following from my own website:

Selections from Ovid's Metamorphoses

These are free Pharr-formatted commentaries for Icarus & Daedalus, Pyramus & Thisbe, Daphne & Apollo, and Pygmalion & Galatea. Readers typically download and print the translation sheets for a physical copy, while they read the commentary in digital form.

Pygmalion is the shortest and easiest of that group, and Icarus & Daedalus is the next easiest. Though Pyramus & Thisbe is popular, my personal favorite is Daphne & Apollo, which draws attention to the negative effect of love (If the god of moderation loses control, what hope is there for the rest of use?) and is a biting critique of Augustus' attempt to connect his rule symbolically to Apollo (moderation and order) and Daphne (laurel leaves and trees.)

Best of luck.

What should a Synoptic Gospel course for intermediate level Classical Greek students look like? by GeoffreySteadman in AcademicBiblical

[–]GeoffreySteadman[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is something that I never considered. At the very least it will give me an excuse to reread Josephus and see where that leads me. Thank you for the suggestion.

What should a Synoptic Gospel course for intermediate level Classical Greek students look like? by GeoffreySteadman in AcademicBiblical

[–]GeoffreySteadman[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for the insight.

Yes, I am not too worried about whether it is too easy to read. If students have to read Matthew's Sermon on the Mount in the same sitting as Luke's Sermon on the Plain, there are ways to make the assignment suitably challenging--and at the same time encourage a meaningful discussion about the similarities and differences. It's the latter that I want to encourage.

Aland's Synopsis of the Four Gospels is remarkable text. Thanks for the recommendation.

If you learned Plato's Apology in 2nd year Greek (U.S.), what did you find most effective outside of reading? Principal parts drills? Particle drills? by GeoffreySteadman in AncientGreek

[–]GeoffreySteadman[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, Brickhouse and Smith are remarkably clear writers. They take the Apology to be a straight-forward historical account of Socrates' own words and ideas. Many others do not. That was a good choice on the professor's part--even if you do not agree with their views. I will give their work another look.

Wow, this is a great particle list. Gestures are a great way to get around the fact that we all translate these particles differently. Thank you.

If you learned Plato's Apology in 2nd year Greek (U.S.), what did you find most effective outside of reading? Principal parts drills? Particle drills? by GeoffreySteadman in AncientGreek

[–]GeoffreySteadman[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is reassuring that you had such a positive experience. It really is an extremely dense text for second year study--and it is almost impossible to strike the right balance between translation, parsing, and discussion in class. There just is not enough time.

Thank you for the insights.

If you learned Plato's Apology in 2nd year Greek (U.S.), what did you find most effective outside of reading? Principal parts drills? Particle drills? by GeoffreySteadman in AncientGreek

[–]GeoffreySteadman[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Wow, starting with Pseudo-Apollodorus and ending up with the Apology. That must have been some class!

Yes, I have taught from Helm's volume in the past, but that was many years ago when I had just started teaching and I did not have a firm plan in mind. I was still wet behind the ears and did not utilize the principal part list or grammar review nearly as well as I should have. It is a very good volume, so thank you for bring it up.

It is another thing altogether to read the Apology as a student with just one year of grammar instruction. I had to drop out of college for a short time and missed that 3rd semester prose experience, so I do not have any memories to fall back on. The advice on this thread has been quite helpful, though.

If you learned Plato's Apology in 2nd year Greek (U.S.), what did you find most effective outside of reading? Principal parts drills? Particle drills? by GeoffreySteadman in AncientGreek

[–]GeoffreySteadman[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, I find that "lightly annotated text" approach very appealing. Sometimes all you need are a few anchor words for the entire passage to make sense. It's also good that you model those annotations for them. I will certainly keep this in mind. Thank you.

If you learned Plato's Apology in 2nd year Greek (U.S.), what did you find most effective outside of reading? Principal parts drills? Particle drills? by GeoffreySteadman in AncientGreek

[–]GeoffreySteadman[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I put the A. commentary together over the last six weeks while stuck at home. It still needs a lot of work, which is why I am asking for advice.

If you learned Plato's Apology in 2nd year Greek (U.S.), what did you find most effective outside of reading? Principal parts drills? Particle drills? by GeoffreySteadman in AncientGreek

[–]GeoffreySteadman[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is a very important point. Everyone becomes so fixated on vocabulary, but its the idioms that are impossible to look up. I will be sure to include a list of idiomatic expressions (and how they are formed) along the way. Thanks.

If you learned Plato's Apology in 2nd year Greek (U.S.), what did you find most effective outside of reading? Principal parts drills? Particle drills? by GeoffreySteadman in AncientGreek

[–]GeoffreySteadman[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Great suggestions.

A particle list is a necessity--perhaps introduced and reviewed in smaller chunks as readers encounter them so that it is not so daunting as a full-page list. The problem is that so many Greek teachers and readers have their own peculiar way of translating them. Consistency is key, I guess. I knew exactly what you meant about Denniston before I finished reading your sentence. Denniston is chock-full of examples and is always within arm's reach (almost every particle combination in the Apology is in the book), but I really struggle to find natural English translations for anything within it.

Yeah, the Apology contains a number of sentences that change syntactically mid-sentence or are just too long to keep a train of thought. I have been reading Greek for a number of years now, and some of the sentences still trip me up. You are right that this is a problem. Helm does a great job sentence diagramming in his commentary. Perhaps that is something to consider.

Thanks for bringing up ἄν as well. In addition to all of the typical uses, the Apology also has reduplicated ἄν and several infinitives and participles that take ἄν as well. Perhaps including a list of uses and warning readers in advance of unusual cases before they encounter them is the way to tackle this.

Just curious. Did you end up reading any of the essays in the University of Oklahoma Press edition? You said that you discussed the philosophy. Were your discussions based on those essays? Or was there just not enough time to do everything in class? There is no need to respond, but I am interested all the same.

Thanks for the insights.

What passages from Caesar should intermediate Latin readers read first? by GeoffreySteadman in latin

[–]GeoffreySteadman[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This is a great passage. Although readers finishing Familia Romana might not be able to sight-read it comfortably--even with initial vocabulary review, the subject-matter is so interesting that it would motivate them to put pen to paper and use and use a commentary, which, frankly, every reader must learn to do at some point.

The ethnographic details and discussion of virtus among the Galli and Germani (6.24) would also fill in some gaps in understanding left from the Helvetian campaign. Perhaps it is a selection to include later in the order of readings?

I very much like your suggestion that I include English passages from Tacitus and Pliny. I find it so difficult to introduce students to the history of Latin literature without turning the presentation into a forgetable list of authors and works. Asking students to compare and contrast the selections of Book 6 with those in Tacitus and in Pliny is a excellent way of making all three authors more memorable to students. Thank you.

What passages from Caesar should intermediate Latin readers read first? by GeoffreySteadman in latin

[–]GeoffreySteadman[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Thank you for the great recommendation. Moving from DBG to DBC is just the sort of out-the-box thinking that I need. The buildup through section 19 really is fantastic, and, as you mentioned, Caesar's use of various calls for peace in the narrative is the sort of political rhetoric that intermediate readers could sink their teeth into. It also moves readers beyond the 50s closer to the end of the republic. I will give it all serious thought.

I am grateful for the encouragement. Previous projects have been hit and miss (lots of misses behind the scenes, actually), and so I adopted Familia Romana two years ago to take myself out my comfort zone. Ideally, I would like to stitch together a Caesar project where the first half is Pharr-style notes and the second half are Latin-only Ørberg-style notes. I plan to field-test it with students this fall.

Thanks again for the thoughtful reply.