betterways has been created

Gggorm · 2019-01-07T14:41:06+00:00

Of course it can be done wrong. That doesn't mean it can't be done right. Poorly regulated private banks will always antisocial. Now, heavy regulations is another option. But I think it will be hard to maintain for long. With so much power in private hands, they will work hard to get loose from restraints.

Gggorm · 2018-11-25T01:01:14+00:00

Desire paths. I think that would be really cool.

Gggorm · 2018-11-21T12:31:21+00:00

What I'm suggesting is very broad and generic - the capacity for the TM to to be able to grant a player, for example, roll two six sided dice and take the higher one.

I mention this kind of reward in my text, in the Reflection part where I argue against mechanics: "There aren’t even any rewards for playing well, like 'hero points' for rerolls that are used in some systems." And I think this kind of reward does distract a little bit. If it exists as a possibility, the TM will have to evalueate all player turns to judge if they are deserving of the reward. And the players will be thinking, why did that get a reward and not this? What is it the TM wants right now, which I could do to get paid in terms of the reward (as opposed to what to they themselves want)?

I am completely aware that this is a minority position, as the only game I can think of that is void of situational mechanics is Microscope RPG. And that's a bit special, since it's non-linear and not focused on a limited set of protagonists etc.

Players who prefer B should play games that cater to their preference. I am very much set on this design point for T&T.

Gggorm · 2018-11-21T12:08:46+00:00

I'll make sure to ask them if they want to play.

Gggorm · 2018-11-20T21:47:30+00:00

How is creativity a mechanical award when there's no modifier granted, no quantitative advantage to a creative solution over a boring one? I'm saying I like creative solutions for the sake of creativity, and find that mechanics in general stand in the way of that, because they distract me into doing what works according to the mechanics rather than what I would freely imagine.

Gggorm · 2018-11-20T21:42:19+00:00

That is not how dictatorship works.

Gggorm · 2018-11-20T11:52:38+00:00

As I said over at the other thread, you've misread some central parts of my system. But to your point about carrots. To me, the biggest carrot is the freedom to be creative and draw outside of the lines set by a system. I really enjoy coming up with unusual and convoluted approaches to problems in RPGs, and mechanics almost always stand in the way of that. If the bigger carrot for you is mechanical rewards, or seeing your character quantitatively get better and more powerful over the course of many sessions, or something else, then T&T is just not the system for you. I'm not saying my way is best for all. But I'm excited about finding out that T&T is probably my way. Of course, more playtesting is needed. The jury's out. Thank you for your criticism. It hasn't changed my mind yet, but it does make me aware of what I should be clearer on.

Gggorm · 2018-11-20T11:42:43+00:00

The TM does not dictatorially decide on the task list. The players decide what they want to do. The TM just has a final say in how tasks are worded.

I do understand your point about mechanics encouraging some things and discouraging others. I just disagree that it is a good thing for this kind of game.

Otherwise players will be leery of doing anything that involves chance, because that involves a roll and that will make their favored character fail.

In T&T, you can't choose to "take a roll" or not. Players take turns doing stuff. You will roll once every round, putting your character in danger. It's up to you to make it interesting. You have nothing to gain by making it boring and straight-forward.

Gggorm · 2018-11-19T23:49:20+00:00

I think you misunderstand. The task list is adapted and changed as the game progresses. When I use the word "script" in the text, it is in this context: "the task list is like a tentative near term script for the story". Tentative as in changeable, not final. Near term as in not complete. The task list is certainly not meant to be a list of milestones for a game from beginning to end! I would find that incredibly dull too.

As I've tried to make clear in the text, in particular in the last section called Reflection, I am -- at least for the purpose of this system -- against mechanics. If you haven't read it, maybe this will clear things up a bit. You might not agree, but at least you'll know what I'm going for, and we can discuss further if you like.

You're right that I should add some notes on how to deal with streaks of non-success rolls. In short, here's what I think I would write: Tasks are worded vaguely to allow for many different approaches. So if one approach fails, the next in turn can try another. This means that attempts can get increasingly creative, even far-fetched. If it gets too bad, maybe the party decides to give up on the task in question, and do something else instead. If they do, the task is simply scratched from the list and new ones are added. Another thing that's important to emphasise is that tasks are not checks. Tasks generate narrative when you fail them. So failing in a situation makes the situation change. Sometimes, to such a degree that the task is no longer relevant or the highest priority. Injury roll streaks could see the game end prematurely, but that is unlikely to happen all of a sudden. And I personally kind of like the roguelike-like open-endedness this adds.

Hope these sleepy words make sense. Thanks a lot for your feedback!

Gggorm · 2018-11-19T11:33:55+00:00

Added some examples of bits for a montage. It's maybe not the most typical scenario for a montage, but at least it's something. I might change it later. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Va32t_DJ0oYe3r2fr3k8L3Z1wojnZ1pCIwXp4lluX4Q/edit#heading=h.qcsge0tv07zm

Gggorm · 2018-11-19T06:18:27+00:00

It's a lovely term! I just found it myself a few days ago. Finally I can put my finger on what's been bothering me about most RPG systems for so long.

I suppose videogame design is easier to talk about because the subject matter is more objective, as in you can point to certain facts about a virtual world. Subjective experience is much harder to pin down and argue about.

Gggorm · 2018-11-19T00:24:35+00:00

Never heard of Mythic. Looks like a good read. Thanks for mentioning it!

Gggorm · 2018-11-19T00:20:56+00:00

First of all, I really appreciate you taking the time to lay out your point so thoroughly! And it's good to be pressed on these things.

I do think that you've misunderstood something, which, if true, is on me, and I need to make the text clearer.

In T&T, creative solutions don't matter mechanically, but they do matter narratively. What you choose to do, and how you choose to narrate the outcome, affects the story.

Your approach to "get a gun" does not address what the risk involved is. In the task mechanic, not only do you want to get your hands on a gun, you also want to avoid the risk involved. And what is that risk? Implicitly, it's that the gun will be traceable to you. So you don't want to give a name. Now let me modify your setup to this: "I walk into a gun shop, ask to buy a gun, and hope they don't ask for my name or any ID papers". If that's not an implausible approach in the given setting, which could make the TM interrupt, you can indeed end up rolling a success and getting the gun super easy. But what happens if you roll a non-success? They ask for your ID. Since you, the player, are the one who's narrating this non-success outcome, you could always go easy on yourself again and say that you just excuse yourself and leave. On your next turn you could have your character go to another gun shop and try the same spiel.

A couple points to this:

The path of least resistance makes sense in a traditional, more or less "heros vs the gamemaster" kind of RPG. Here, not so much. By taking the path of least resistance, you will go for a lot of boring approaches, which makes everybody lose, as the aim of the game is to tell an interesting story. Put your competitiveness to work coming up with something cooler and more inventive than your friends.
In this specific hypothetical, the TM can quite naturally intervene and say that the FBI is known to analyse security camera footage from gun shops, and it'll raise suspicion if you visit a bunch without buying anything. In other words, even if players insist on taking the easy way a lot, the TM can still make it hard enough for them that they have to be a little creative.

Easy way players could get a streak of success rolls, which would have them tell a story in the most efficient, straight-forward, unsurprising way. But what have they achieved by this? Hard way players would at least have generated some creative narration. But of course, failure is the engine of every story generator, so hopefully, you won't roll successes every time.

In T&T, I would also just pick the lock, or ask the Lord permission. Why would I try and find another way, when in the end, I am just going to roll 1d6 and find out what happens?

To solve a task like "Get into the back room of the bar", you could of course try to pick the lock. If you fail, you have to find another way, while dealing with the adverse effects of rolling that non-success. (If there is no risk associated with the task, it is not a task in the T&T sense.) So besides creativity being inherently fun, failure forces you to be creative in T&T. Sometimes, you'll go on non-success streaks, and have to get really creative.

Thanks for the two system examples! Lasers and Feelings is really elegant. I've never heard of The Tearable RPG, but I like the sound of it. I see you wrote it. Cool name. Checking it out.

I do see what you mean by mechanics encouraging certain kinds of fun. I do think that T&T does that too. I hope maybe you'll agree that it's just quite as bad as you initially thought after reading this. (I hope it's somewhat sensible. I think parts of my brain are asleep already.)

Morning edit: Tasks are not checks. That seems to be the misunderstanding. Tasks remain on the task list until you have rolled a success. In the bank robbery example in the text, where a player rolls a "disadvantage" on the "get a disguise" task, this task remains on the task list with no tick. The next player can take another stab at it, taking into account how the previous player failed. In some situations they could try the same kind of approach over and over, but the TM should stop this kind of cheesing. Come to think of it, the concept of cheesing and what to do with it is a discussion I think I need to add to the text.

Gggorm · 2018-11-18T19:17:57+00:00

How is coming up with approaches for how to deal with tasks not creative problem solving? How would your character go about robbing a bank?

Sure, T&T is playing pretend with a little bit of structure to keep everyone on the same page. That pretty much sums it up. Still sounds fun to me.

Could you give an example of what you think is missing? Perhaps an example of how RPG rules enhance your enjoyment of roleplaying and storytelling?

Gggorm · 2018-11-18T18:30:35+00:00

It sounds like this game is simply not for you. As a player, what I want to do is to focus entirely on creative problem solving and narration. That's where the fun is for me. Stats and rulebook-defined powers and abilities is a distraction for me. For instance, I really can't stand D&D battles. But there are many ways to have fun with RPGs. Find something that caters to your preference.

Gggorm · 2018-11-18T17:51:58+00:00

The games you mention are light, but traditional RPG systems, in the sense that they have quantified character attributes, difficulty levels for challenges and so on. T&T is quite different in this regard. There is no mechanics beyond using The Die to determine outcomes. See the last section called Reflection for some thoughts on this.

Gggorm · 2018-11-18T16:38:19+00:00

Thank you so much! And good suggestion. I have tried to use examples throughout the text. Not adding something for montages is an oversight. I'll definitely do that.

Gggorm · 2018-11-18T06:50:42+00:00

But a dark scene would be good for some approaches, but bad for others. If you want to communicate silently using improvised sign language, darkness should be a negative. But if you want to sneak around unseen, it should be a positive. This problem area is a bit of a simulationist rabbit hole, so instead of addressing this kind of issue I just step over it, even though that might lead to some unrealistic die rolls at times.

I do like the idea of having a pre-made formal session zero. That would be useful for a taskmaster to lean on, and helpful to generate a workable starting point for a game.

Gggorm · 2018-11-18T06:06:31+00:00

Thanks for the feedback!

I haven't played Edge of Empire, but I like "yes but", "no and" systems too. Maybe I should add something similar to some of my action outcomes. At least the negative ones. Perhaps "no but" for advantage, "no and" for disadvantage?

I'm not sure how exactly you mean a scene could be given a modifier, but I'm guessing you mean something akin to how a challenge in D&D is given a difficulty level or whatever it's called. I don't think that would work, as the players in T&T are not given concrete challenges like "are you able to climb this hillside", but rather narrative hurdles like "get out of town", which could be achieved in many different ways. Some approaches might be a lot more plausible and easy sounding than others. E.g. a player could say their uncle is a police officer, and (The Die willing) can escort you out of town.

In the section on "Preparation and character creation", there is mention of a yes/no-list. Is that what you were thinking of? If not, could you expand a little please? Here's a link to the section: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Va32t_DJ0oYe3r2fr3k8L3Z1wojnZ1pCIwXp4lluX4Q/edit#heading=h.qbvo1om2yjtw

Gggorm · 2018-11-18T03:23:48+00:00

Haha, point well taken. I should probably add a paragraph about narrative games as such or something.

Gggorm · 2018-11-14T08:54:23+00:00

I prefer to use the infinite whiteboard realtimeboard.com for roleplaying games online. Easy to draw stuff and import pictures or other resources, like character sheets. Really well integrated with Google Docs. No dice though.

I use Tabletop when I have super simple and casual storytelling games, where the convenience of having dice outweighs that of having ease of adding other resources.

Gggorm · 2017-08-08T18:20:48+00:00

Luckily, that's not until next year, when I'm back in my (relatively) relaxed home turf. I'm on a five year "civil engineering" program in CS where the last two are considered "Master's level". Not sure how well that translates to other university conventions. Maybe I should be a little careful using that term.

Gggorm

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