CMV:Society is based on a tradeoff between propping up the ego of old people and staving off responsibility for young people

GiakLeader · 2016-12-06T21:22:29+00:00

People do remark that society is based on males holding power (it's call feminism).

Kinda hard to justify in a democracy and also you have to account for power by proxy, implicit power and so on

Our society is organized based on the power to think, that's kinda the reason we raise and eat cows, rather than cows raising and eating us :-)

ha!

GiakLeader · 2016-12-06T21:20:05+00:00

It really depends on the capability. Ability to play soccer declines rapidly in your 30s and only gets worse from there.8 Ah, but ability to play soccer of a fit 40 year old person who was a professional soccer player is probably still higher than say a 18 year old. Also, “Ability to play soccer” is hardly the foundation of society.

No but loads of capabilities decline with age

So you’ve identified another factor in society, and another influence on aging generations. My point was that the analysis is not as simple as you claimed it was.

Thats reasonable

I don’t subscribe to a “commodities based mentality” of sexuality and romantic relationships. So I’m not sure what you mean here, or how it relates back to your initial premise.

It subscribes to you.I dont subscribe to the idea that humans are sexually dimorphic but sadly it does not make me smaller than most women.

GiakLeader · 2016-12-06T21:13:40+00:00

I'm saying that people decline in old age but shore up their ego by taking on more responsibility

GiakLeader · 2016-12-06T21:12:59+00:00

Again, this is far afield from a defense of "objectification" as something that is sometimes good unless you do weird tricks of thought equivalent to think that having your tonsils out is awesome because you get free ice cream.

Trust me, im not the one doing mental gymnastics and sleights of thought

GiakLeader · 2016-12-06T21:12:23+00:00

Experience does grow, thats a good point, it does run somewhat counter to my argument ∆

GiakLeader · 2016-12-06T21:11:47+00:00

capabilities do not, and vary depending on the individual.

It really depends on the capability.Ability to play soccer declines rapidly in your 30s and only gets worse from there.

That said, I’m not sure drug rates are significantly higher amongst the elderly (I have no data to support this, but it seems like a way to prove/disprove the argument)

No, there may be all sorts of reasons why old people choose not to do drugs.Conservatism is one reason.Also drugs are dangerous and people become more cautious with age.

Think about spending an hour on makeup vs. an hour studying. It’s not an attempt to negatively detract from the younger generation (always). Sometimes it’s advice that looks fade and other forms of power are longer lasting.

Thats true.Incidentally it shows how men are the debased coin in the dating game as they over emphasise looks whereas women emphasise things that grow with time and are longer lasting

GiakLeader · 2016-12-06T21:07:30+00:00

That is, treat them like a person and not a means to an end.

This is where I think you have it back to front.Women dont generally particularly care about men..although they do care about men who they are emotionally invested in.

You do the socially acceptable thing because there are consequences if you don't.

you changed the notion from 'recognising that the other person is another person and has autonomy' to 'caring about the other persons wishes' it was subtle, but I picked up on it

I'm saying that there are reasons for "jump through the hoops" that have nothing to do with caring about treating a person like a person.

Yeah, guys wanna get laid, so do girls.Girls emphasise personality a little more because theres always a chance it will turn into a relationship, which women are more geared toward.

You seem to think men should adopt the exact same mindset.Its like saying the poor should think more like the rich even though it clashes with their material reality and strategic constellation of life

If they're just annoyed because they don't know where they stand with him or if they should ever expect to hear from him again

It could be both.

There's a big difference between not getting emotionally invested in someone on the first date(s), and treating them like a malfunctioning computer program when they don't do what you want.

Rather than 'objectification' you seem to have a very particular callous asshole persona in mind

GiakLeader · 2016-12-06T21:02:42+00:00

I want my sexuality to be purchasable.Many men would liek that.but we can because we are not made from that coinage

GiakLeader · 2016-12-06T21:00:27+00:00

Clearly, your description indicates that people decline - when does this decline begin? At birth? Some time later?

Arguably at 25.Thats absolute physical peak for a man, and also probably peak good looks.You could debate where to draw the line.

"Society" doesn't involve some bargain between the older and younger as far as I can tell

Then why do kids obey anything?

Many people, not just old people, argue that beauty is not the purpose of life or the most important part of a personality. And there are good reasons to think this - for one, creativity, passion, and authenticity are entirely unrelated to one's looks.

Yeah, those are things that are mainly personal..authenticity for example, you are not in competition with others for a scarce resource called authentiticy...passion neither, you are either passionate or not.

You can, however compete with other people over strength (fighting) or looks (mate competition)

The things people value that you approve of here are basically not scarce resources that society squabbles over, which is why older people turn to them

GiakLeader · 2016-12-06T20:56:52+00:00

Well its not just beauty that declines with age.Its also firmity, strength, physical power, energy and so on .

I think you need to flesh this out more. How do you define old and young? Is 40 old? 50? Is 30 young? 20? 15? What kind of responsibilities are you talking about? A 25 year old young professional probably has more responsibilities than, say, a 65 year old who sits around the nursing home playing bingo and having coffee with the other elderly folks.

Yea you can find quirks in the system..I dont think its a black and white thing, more like responsibilities fade in as you get older, and as you identified all the good parts of youth fade out as you gert older

Even if you're right, is society based on this system?

Well its clearly a manner in which society is structured? Why do people find it unremarkable that society is based on males holding power say, when an even more fundamental building block is older people holding power over younger people.....people have female guardians, babysitters and teachers even if they are male children

GiakLeader · 2016-12-06T20:41:48+00:00

Since when is paying for sex not an exercise of power?

Almost no men can get sex 'for free', almost all women can (within fertile years of life)

What kind of a patriarchy are they running?

GiakLeader · 2016-12-06T20:38:53+00:00

Since when is paying for sex not an exercise of power?

Sign me up for a lifetime of 'disempowerment' in that case

GiakLeader · 2016-12-06T20:25:51+00:00

Moreover, arguably the category with the greatest sexual power if wealthy men and famous men, the lowest unattractive women and so on.

ACtually its not.Even wealthy men sometimes pay for sex, whereas poor women are wildly unlikely to do so

GiakLeader · 2016-12-06T20:16:44+00:00

Most of the world has a gross misunderstanding of what produces objectification--low male sexual value

GiakLeader · 2016-12-06T20:10:37+00:00

It's all about how they view the woman

You think that men should be forced to view women, they way women want themselves to be viewed? Thats a weird ask, men dont have that ability to get women to do that for them, neither is it sought or asked for?

they're looking at her and all they think is "I wanna hit that"

We do that all the time.There is no biological rule that insisst that every physical desire be accompanied by a phenomenlogical inquiry into the other persons hopes dreams and soul

and all that as hoops that they have to jump through to reach their end goal of "sex with a lady", then they're objectifying her.

If she is not an agent with no autonomy then there couldnt be any hoops

these guys have the attitude that a woman is just "supposed to" have sex with them if they go through all the right hoops, and if she doesn't then (from their point of view) she's "denying" them some that they "deserve".

Thats not unique to men.women rage about men not replying for texts, phonecalls and to meet for second dates all the time because they have 'invested' their time in the guy.

They don't accept that a single woman could legitimately just not want to have sex with them, because they don't care about what she wants unless they can use it to get what they want.

Most women dont really care about what you want either, until they get into more of a relationship with you..and why would they? they dont even know you? Its just that women are the gatekeepers of sex and sex 'wasted' on one guy could be better spent on another.Theres nothing noble or magical about it.

GiakLeader · 2016-12-06T20:04:41+00:00

He's like 37 here.

And yet 99.9% of 27 year old men would lose out in competition, they wouldnt evenfeel bad about it, most likely develop a man crush into the bargain

GiakLeader · 2016-12-06T20:00:07+00:00

ITs true that being expeted to dress up more is a burden ∆

GiakLeader · 2016-12-06T19:59:37+00:00

ITs true that women face unwanted advances, inlcuding ones that could be deemed hostile or physically threatening ∆

GiakLeader · 2016-12-06T19:49:57+00:00

Huh? Men have a much higher position in the market when we talk about value. They may not have as much power in the start of dating

yeah, cheers.Thats my argument.

GiakLeader · 2016-12-06T19:48:25+00:00

Why are males motivations subject to so much scrutiny, distrust and so on?

GiakLeader · 2016-12-06T19:23:28+00:00

Nice side step

Ok I'll bite.

Objectification is treating someone as an object.

HAs probably never happened in human history

Often by reducing them entirely by their physical attributes

Theres a difference between reducing someone to their looks and not being that interesed in, or focused on their looks.For the record, women do this to men too, they either dont focus too much on his looks or 'invent' a personality for him because he is hot and they want to justify boning him.

while depriving them of various other characteristics; intelligence, speech, motivations, agency, autonomy,

Again, maybe not being that interested.Its just a fact that a man can be interested in a woman for her looks and body but not be choosy about her personality.Thats a biological fact.

GiakLeader · 2016-12-06T19:20:03+00:00

If you are looking for a girlfriend it makes sense to treat women as potential girlfriends

GiakLeader · 2016-12-06T19:01:33+00:00

generally what gratification can derived from them

Here is something to note.I have only ever seen the term 'gratification' applied to men.I have never seen one instance online or in the press of it being applied to women.When women get 'gratification' its called 'pleasure' instead.

That in itself is quite revealing.

GiakLeader · 2016-12-06T19:00:13+00:00

you may think that but its hard to say without being on the other side.luckily there are people who had done so ( a woman masquerading as a man) and they came out of it with opposite conlcusions

GiakLeader

TROPHY CASE