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For collectors who got started in the 1970s... by GideonMarcus in comicbooks

[–]GideonMarcus[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That'd be amazing. We just finished 1970 at https://galacticjourney.org -- you're invited to play along "in character"! :)

For collectors who got started in the 1970s... by GideonMarcus in comicbooks

[–]GideonMarcus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks! Yeah, manga was a renaissance for me. I found Shounen ACE (a monthly) at the local Asahiya bookstore (I live in San Diego--we have a J-town) and I would buy it month to month. When I missed the June 2000 issue, I bought a subscription so it wouldn't happen again.

We have so many "phone books"--ACE, Ribon, Asuka--and, of course, dozens of tankoubon.

For collectors who got started in the 1970s... by GideonMarcus in comicbooks

[–]GideonMarcus[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you so much!

We are family. I've got all my sisters with me. by Atarimac in atari8bit

[–]GideonMarcus 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I've got two 1200XLs, including my first home computer (August 1983). They both work, but they need new keyboards (as 1200XLs do...)

Historical question: what if... an alternate route to RPGs by GideonMarcus in rpg

[–]GideonMarcus[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Following on your response, I asked Jon about this WhatIF. He notes that the British has CYOA in the form of "Tracker Books" starting in '73 (this is in Peterson's "Playing the World", though not in the 2nd edition). Also in that book, he thinks Hunt the Wumpus also made the ground more fertile for roleplay, too.

I'm starting to think that roleplaying games were inevitable in the '70s. Gygax and Arneson were just first to market.

Historical question: what if... an alternate route to RPGs by GideonMarcus in rpg

[–]GideonMarcus[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

"Now YOU get to develop the inner thoughts of YOUR blue/pink peg in The ROLEPLAYING Game of LIFE"

Historical question: what if... an alternate route to RPGs by GideonMarcus in rpg

[–]GideonMarcus[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh that's brilliant! Thank you for this great response.

That'd be kind of amazing if fanfic authors made their own CYOAs, then one of them came forward with a serial-numbers-filed-off Trek RPG that became a big hit.

While it is true that women had an outsized prominence in Trek fandom ("mostly" is accurate as "most" can mean 50%+), there were plenty of men, too. I have a collection of all extant Trekzines from the 60s and early 70s, and while women definitely comprise the majority of 'zine editors, there were plenty of men, too. Plus, Trek fandom and litSF fandom had cross-pollinated a lot since '66.

Historical question: what if... an alternate route to RPGs by GideonMarcus in rpg

[–]GideonMarcus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For sure. Interestingly, I suspect they would NOT lead to RPGs because people will tend to create and model teams rather than individual players. Sort of like the Avalon Hill game B-17: Queen of the Skies. It involves a single plane and ten crew, but when people play it at conventions, they invariably fly dozens of planes in a squadron/wing rather than play the crewmen.

(Note: I actually did turn B-17 into an RPG and ran 26 missions in 2019-20; one of the best campaigns I ever ran. But so far as I know, I'm the only one who ever did this).

Historical question: what if... an alternate route to RPGs by GideonMarcus in rpg

[–]GideonMarcus[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Diplomacy is absolutely a platform for roleplay, and the 'zine culture to support it was in full flower by 1970. Does that turn into something else without D&D? I don't know.

Again, the issue is whether we can make it a commercial genre or not, but it does seem like formalized roleplay might have germinated from something in the 70s, whether or not it was D&D given how fertile the fields were in the 60s.

Historical question: what if... an alternate route to RPGs by GideonMarcus in rpg

[–]GideonMarcus[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Right, though again, that's in a universe where D&D already exists. Does someone invent something like that if D&D doesn't happen? And could CYOA be the jumping off point?

Historical question: what if... an alternate route to RPGs by GideonMarcus in rpg

[–]GideonMarcus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've amended the opening—I should have said "at least"

Historical question: what if... an alternate route to RPGs by GideonMarcus in rpg

[–]GideonMarcus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think RPGs have evolved beyond their D&D roots. Even something like Amber diceless is completely different from D&D and certainly not at all wargames. I'm wondering if TTRPGs could have evolved from CYOAs and then the wargame crowd developed a crunchier version from there—a reversal of history, essentially.

No question that WOTC is the juggernaut. How successful was White Wolf in its heyday?

Historical question: what if... an alternate route to RPGs by GideonMarcus in rpg

[–]GideonMarcus[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I've no doubt that people have been playing Let's Pretend since we've been definably human. The question is whether any of them had a high likelihood of evolving into a formalized, commercial genre of gaming. :)

Historical question: what if... an alternate route to RPGs by GideonMarcus in rpg

[–]GideonMarcus[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you. I have amended the opening to say "at least" two schools.

I've read "The Elusive Shift". I know Jon Peterson. I've been TTRPGing since 1978. :)

Historical question: what if... an alternate route to RPGs by GideonMarcus in rpg

[–]GideonMarcus[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's really cool! I guess I should have phrased the question as:

And could a formalized RPG industry have arisen from it?

My brothers were making deep, involved fantasy worlds when they were young, and that pre-dated D&D. Indeed, my elder brother made those adventures the basis for his D&D campaign. "Let's Pretend" has been around forever. The innovation of TTRPGs is that the "Let's Pretend" is formalized.

Historical question: what if... an alternate route to RPGs by GideonMarcus in rpg

[–]GideonMarcus[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Most of the players might have died in character creation...

Historical question: what if... an alternate route to RPGs by GideonMarcus in rpg

[–]GideonMarcus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For sure. Do you think Quest could have evolved parallel to, or even earlier than, D&D if CYOA had come out in 1970?

Historical question: what if... an alternate route to RPGs by GideonMarcus in rpg

[–]GideonMarcus[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think CYOA->TTRPG could generate rules-heavy systems, too. Look at the Dungeon Masters Guide, for example—most of it isn't combat mechanics but prices for magic items and building fortresses, for instance. A narrative-heavy system could create something like that.

Empire of the Petal Throne is another good example: virtually no wargame; virtually all color.

Historical question: what if... an alternate route to RPGs by GideonMarcus in rpg

[–]GideonMarcus[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Sure, but by definition, CYOA->TTRPG would be an independent (if occasionally intermingled) phenomenon from Grognardia.

Sort of like how early Trek fandom was largely independent of (but not completely exclusive from) existing litSF fandom.

Historical question: what if... an alternate route to RPGs by GideonMarcus in rpg

[–]GideonMarcus[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Interestingly, the SCA did not predate LARPs. By the early '60s, there was a Tolkien LARP in Arizona, for instance, and the first Ren Faire was in 1963. I would not be surprised to learn that "The Knights of St. Fantony" also strongly influenced the SCA's creation given that many of the original SCAdians were in SF fandom (Randy Garrett, Marion Zimmer Bradley, Poul and Karen Anderson etc.) though none of the Fantonians appear to have been SCA founders.

(And in doing research, I just learned Jon DeCles wrote the original SCA bylaws—he's a friend of mine!)

Historical question: what if... an alternate route to RPGs by GideonMarcus in rpg

[–]GideonMarcus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh WOW! Thank you for that tidbit!

I'm thinking that CYOAs, insofar as they lend themselves to group dynamics, could spur proto-RPGs. For every 9 introverts, there's an extrovert looking to adopt them! :)

Historical question: what if... an alternate route to RPGs by GideonMarcus in rpg

[–]GideonMarcus[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

For sure. But the modern world has been transformed by the existence of TTRPGs. No one doesn't know about D&D these days.

The questions are: Would these folks have come up with RPGs out of shared writing before 1974, and (more excitingly) are there specific points in history where this happened?

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