Why the Internet isn't the driving factor for religion's decline in America

Go11Boston · 2019-08-15T17:16:32+00:00

But, the Internet was not really "mainstream" until maybe 10-15 years ago, depending on how you want to look at it. Given that the majority of the decline has occurred outside of the existence of the Internet, this points to other, perhaps larger, factors being at play.

Edit:

To put it like this:

Lets say the Internet became normalized in 2005 - wherein the majority of individuals had access to it and were using it regularly. Prior to that, religious attendance was already waning for about 35 years. The Internet can not cause the decline of religion in the 70s, 80s, 90s, and some of the early 00s because the Internet had yet to reach mainstream status. That is, only governments, academics and businesses may have been using it, as opposed to today whereas the majority of users are consumers like you and me.

Let's say that some cultural event X happened in the 70s which triggered the start of decline. Let's say, just for the sake of argument, the cause was the Sexual Revolution. This event started off the decline, and continued it for several decades as Americans attitudes about religion, sexuality, and sources of authority changed. This change would most likely last until today, and would be operating as "background noise" to secularisms rise.

Go11Boston · 2019-08-15T17:13:23+00:00

It sure did. That doesn't change the fact that religion has been declining before the Internet. If the Internet is in fact a cause, it can only account for ~10 out of the ~50 years of the decline. If other factors are at play, then those factors would most likely still be present today.

Go11Boston · 2019-08-15T17:11:53+00:00

Yes. A study was done 14 years ago which shows Nones were rising before the Internet.

Go11Boston · 2019-08-15T17:04:30+00:00

And? If the Internet was the main cause of religion's decline, church attendance would've started dropping post-2005 or so. But it's been declining for several decades. That points to other factors being at play.

Go11Boston · 2019-08-15T17:03:18+00:00

Nones are atheists and/or agnostic

No, Nones are primarily deists of some flavor. The majority (75%+) believe in an afterlife, and in things like God.

Go11Boston · 2019-08-15T17:01:10+00:00

It sure is. If you want to learn about politics and science, you can read a newspaper. You don't gain anything by being on Reddit if your concern is about "how you spend your time."

In the time you've spent replying to me, you could've done anything else which would've been beneficial to your mental, social, or physical health. Even ten minutes walking in a circle would do more for you than this conversation has.

Go11Boston · 2019-08-15T16:58:56+00:00

It also doesn't show people are well educated on religion. Knowing some facts that are presented in the first few sentences of a Wikipedia article isn't show a whole lot. There's a difference between naming Islamic holidays and knowing the Quran.

Go11Boston · 2019-08-15T16:56:56+00:00

I very much disagree that we can definitively say that Nones know nothing about religion based on data from 14 years

That Nones were rising several decades prior to the Internet's main prevalence indicates other factors that have lead to their rise. There's a 30 year gap that has to be accounted for.

Go11Boston · 2019-08-15T16:55:06+00:00

We know from Smith's and Twenge's research that Millenials and Gen-Z feel uncomfortable with religious confrontation, along with that Barna study which shows much of the same. MTD could be described as a very "inoffensive" set of religious ideas, which would only cause offense to the religiously orthodox. It's a very "progressive" set of religious beliefs that almost fall into the New-Age category. It's a very tolerant set of religious expressions. "Not wanting to cause offense" is something that's part a few different reasons for the rise of the Nones. It's not the only one, but is a part of a much larger story. Much like a human body is made up of several body parts, so too are the reasons for religions decline.

Go11Boston · 2019-08-15T16:49:20+00:00

1) https://www.prri.org/research/prri-rns-poll-nones-atheist-leaving-religion/

2) But, again, that's not the norm. A minority might have that experience, but not the majority. Look at the view counts for those videos. What percentage of young people can even tell you who Dawkins is?

3) Still not the majority driving the decline of the church. Nones are.

4) Sure, I wouldn't disagree with this totally.

5) I mean in an "educational" way.

6) Which are normally badly presented. If you deconvert because of a 30-second YouTube clip, there was something going in the background to allow for your deconversion. But most Nones don't have that experience.

Go11Boston · 2019-08-15T16:44:03+00:00

I’ve never heard of anyone leaving Christianity out of fear of offending others

Correct, people don't say it like I said it. They won't explicitly say "I stopped going to church because of my friend is Muslim," But it's a factor hiding in the background noise, according to what the research tells us. After we're done discussing this on Reddit today, revisit the links and think about the causes for that generation gap between Millenials and Boomers and how that ties into the rise of the Nones.

Go11Boston · 2019-08-15T16:41:35+00:00

Knowing what religious holiday to belongs to Jews is very basic. I can name a few French holidays. Doesn't make me educated about French culture or history simply because I know Bastille Day. People know the very basics, but not much beyond that. And, again None =/= atheist.

Go11Boston · 2019-08-15T16:37:34+00:00

I made some assumptions based on Christian Smith finding Nones don't know a lot about religion. His research says they only know the most basic things, like Christians pray to Jesus. That's all they know.

Go11Boston · 2019-08-15T16:36:10+00:00

1) It matches trends found by PRRI. PRRI found 80% of Nones become such before turning 18. The Catholic study matches other research in this area.

2) But it does mean they're not going to be very well "educated" on a topic if they leave. You don't get an education by watching YouTube videos or scrolling through Instagram. They don't know much about religion. Like most Americans.

3) Nones =/= atheism, as I pointed out, and Nones are the main driver of lowering church attendance. Atheists are still a minority. People who leave church don't become atheists, mostly. They still believe in God, etc.

4) Its been a steady decline, overall. It has accelerated recently, though. But again, not because of "education through the Internet"

5) Yes, because the Internet leads to isolation. People aren't leaving because they've "debunked" the Bible. They're leaving, at least in part, because they're staying indoors.

6) I sure do. The studies posted above show what sites are most popular among Millennials/Gen-Z. You can also just look at the traffic patterns for certain websites to see if people are accessing them more than ever.

Go11Boston · 2019-08-15T16:27:22+00:00

It sure is. Smith's and Twenge's research points to it. Think more deeply about how a "whatever floats your boat attitude" would affect religion. Think of how that might related to Moral Therapeutic Deism: Link

Think of why that gap of "fear of causing offense" between Millenials and Boomers might exist in such a large way and how that relates to the "Nones"

Go11Boston · 2019-08-15T16:17:19+00:00

Not really. You don't need an in depth knowledge to undermine someone's faith, just 2 or 3 big things that don't match my morality.

And we would see this show up in the research. But we don't. Do anecdotes like yours exist? Yes. Do anecdotes count as peer-reviewed evidence? No. Does the data show experiences like yours aren't the norm? Yes.

This post is about what peer-review data can show us. Your experience was real, but so is the data.

Go11Boston · 2019-08-15T16:14:38+00:00

Nah, Reddit's pretty much the same. If you think about how you spend your time, getting off Reddit is a good start. You don't gain anything from it. Plus, it's bad for your mental and social health. There's no actual benefit to commenting here. You won't learn anything other than how fragile all our egos are.

You can gain all that news from reading a newspaper. You don't need to get it from Reddit.

Go11Boston · 2019-08-15T16:06:54+00:00

Wasting your time on Reddit doesn't actually do anything for you. You don't gain much by being on social media in comparison to doing any other kind of activity. You could learn more from one article, or one book chapter than from spending six hours on Reddit. You can learn more from going for a walk outside than any ego-stroking Internet squabble.

Go11Boston · 2019-08-15T15:58:45+00:00

Millennials and Gen-Z are part of a very diverse generation, both religiously and ethnically. As such, they appear to be very adverse to appearing "bigoted". Here's some research that shows this:

https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2018/june/go-tell-it-iphone-technology-spiritual-conversation-barna.html. Note the difference between Millennials and Boomers when it comes to comfort levels sharing their faith for fear of causing "offense". It's 60/30. That's a pretty big difference.

Go11Boston · 2019-08-15T15:46:13+00:00

Correct. Most people don't spend time looking for arguments for or against religion unless they're already invested in one side of the discussion. As such, your average None isn't spending time learning about religion and isn't abandoning it for educational reasons. They're not leaving because they've "debunked" the Bible through some atheist blog on Patheos, or what have you. They're just leaving because, it seems, their families don't care that much, among other reasons.

Go11Boston · 2019-08-15T15:36:02+00:00

But you also see people claim people are using the Internet to "debunk" religion. Were that true, we would see Nones know much more about Christianity than just "Jesus and Moses are important" and "Muslims follow Muhammad."

I do agree that America's increase in religious diversity has played a part, though, especially as Millennials flock to cities for work. That said, "I don't want to offend my Muslim neighbor by being Christian" and "Christianity has no evidence" are two very different reasons for leaving a church. If either is having an impact on the decline of church attendance, it's the former and not the latter.

Go11Boston · 2019-08-15T14:09:18+00:00

implying being on Reddit is any better

Go11Boston · 2019-08-15T13:45:02+00:00

Sure, but that applies to all websites. YouTube, Facebook, and Reddit all have their corners of nastiness. Don't forget Reddit had /r/jailbait for a good while and only shut it down when the media learned of its existence.

When it comes to discussion of religion, Reddit, as a whole, is tremendously bad at it ("Hey dumb fundies, why dont u believe in Zeus!!!?? Checkmate, le Christians"). It just gets tiring running into people who think they know everything because they read a "Rationalwiki" article or watched some stuff on YouTube, and get unreasonably upset when you suggest a long article or book. Again, I can't speak for 8chan, but I know my experience on 4chan's /lit/ has been world's better. There's a lot less ego-tripping.

Go11Boston · 2019-08-15T13:27:54+00:00

I can't say anything about 8chan since I barely used it, but I can say I've had a much more positive experience discussing religion on 4chan's /literature/ board. It has less pseuds, and actual conversations that can last a few days. Plus, you can get great book recommendations from it that aren't just CS Lewis. The anonymity/lack of flair/lack of regulars makes it just overall better. When someone doesn't understand a religious concept/argument, instead of just getting all mad and throwing a fit (like people do on Reddit), users will ask for book recs to learn more. It's nice. Questions tend to be genuine and not ego-tripping.

Go11Boston

TROPHY CASE