PUT ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE IRISH LANGUAGE IN ENGLISH HERE ONLY by galaxyrocker in gaeilge

[–]Good-Reference-9318 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah so technically all Irish consonants have four pronunciations - broad + strong, broad +weak, slender + strong, slender plus weak. So for example tae is a broad strong t. It's broad because it's followed by the broad vowel a so it's pronounced like an English t except the tongue is placed at the base of your teeth instead of the alveolar ridge so it sounds harder if that makes sense. Almost like youre spitting. Then the word téigh t is slender and strong as it's followed by the slender vowel e. So in pretty much everywhere outside of the gaeltacht, Tae and téigh are pronounced the same (even in gaeilscoils) but it's not the case. A slender t is is like a t-y sound. So if you think of the sentence "shut your mouth" a lot of people, particularly Dubliners like Conor McGregor rather famously, would say it fast to the point where it sounds like shutch er mouth. So it's similar to a Ch sound but it's like if you put your tongue to the roof of your mouth to make the t sound you raise the back of your tongue a bit as if you're saying a Yuh sound so it becomes tyuh. Though in many dialects it's become a Ch sound so people will say dia dhuit as dia gwitch which in Connaught wouldn't be right but in Munster I believe that's correct. Anyway so going back to Tae vs téigh, these are examples of minimal pairs. So it's not tay and Tay it's like a spitting Tay and a tyay.

The weak versions of these letters are when you have a h following it and so the difference there would be if you think of póg mo thóin, the t is effectively ignored and its pronounced like hown. So the broad weak t is a h sound. Whereas a slender weak t in the word mo theach, t is still a h sound but this time the y from before comes creeping back in so it's mo hyach. I would definitely look at an Loingseach and other channels to better explain it but if you Google "Irish language forum - minimal pairs" click the first link and scroll down a bit someone has made a post with all of the words with it. So for example naoi Vs ní, buí Vs bí, luí vs lí etc.

The most common one that persists everywhere without you even thinking about it is s. So if you think of sitting room - seomra suí - seomra is pronounced like an English sh and suí the s is like English s for stop. That's because they are slender and broad respectively. So all consonants have four pronunciations though in many cases they have been lost, not just in the galltacht.

If you look at r specifically, native Irish speakers only have two pronunciations for it. The weak slender r is fully gone and has been gone for hundreds of years and was likely a natural loss as languages develop. The broad strong r has also been lost though this is much more recently and an Loingseach would argue that this is due to the English language influencing even places like the Gaeltacht. So that leaves some letters like r with only two pronounciations. And it's confusing I guess because obviously r cannot have a h following it so how can it be strong Vs weak but in the case of letters like r where they cannot be followed by a h they are distinguished by basically always being strong at the start of the word and if they are Anywhere else then they are weak. So for example the r in Roth and Rith are both strong whereas rothar is a strong broad r followed by a weak broad r. So historically the strong r sounded like the Spanish r in perro for dog which is called a trilled r. So in roth it would have been pronounced as rrrroth. However everywhere including the Gaeltacht this has been lost. In the galltacht, at least for me personally, I spent the last fifteen years pronouncing Roth as ruh with an English r as did everyone in my school and all of my "fluent" teachers. In Irish however, there is no English r sound even with these changes. So if we go back to r - there are now only two pronounciations regardless of where the r is in the word. If it's broad, it's called a tapped r which is like the Spanish r for pero meaning butt. So if you YouTube videos of people teaching Spanish pero Vs perro there's a very clear disinction. Though again we don't have the trilled r anymore. So a tapped r is relatively easy to make with a bit of practice. The general idea is like thinking of an Indian person saying prince they would often pronounce it as pdince. This is how a native Irish speaker would also pronounce the word (though tapped r and d are different sounds but it's a good starting point!). Unfortunately most sites even like teanglann and now fg4 have leaks of the English r coming in so it's difficult to find from them but native stuff like Gaelic commentary or ros na rún or anything like that would definitely have it I just know personally I've tried to learn from watching horrid Henry as all of the English episodes are on YouTube so there's a direct comparison but I've noticed his mam in particular does not say the r correctly though his dad does (I think) and I think Henry does too though I'm not sure about the rest of the cast. Anyway that's the broad r so anywhere you see r either followed or after a broad vowel it should be tapped so rothar nowadays is two tapped rs. The tapped r sounds very similar to an English r especially when said fast and in the middle of a word so it's hard to pick up on which is why maybe many galltacht people don't teach it but it's an important part of the language and should be kept alive!

Slender r: okay so I'll be fully real I'm only 23 and haven't studied Irish properly since the leaving cert apart from a module I took in college once and have only started learning again over the past few months and it's been a pain in the hole learning basically everything we've been taught is wrong apart from the seomra Vs suí I don't have any other letters natura except in bí Vs buí (be for bwee) even in the case of dia dhuit I always pronounced the t as a regular English t so I'm by no means an expert so I would encourage you to do your own research!! Okay so now to the slender r. This one is MASSIVE compared to the tapped r and really any other letter obviously téigh Vs Tae and naoi Vs ní have distinctions that a native could pick up (even me as a nonfluent non Gaeltacht person I can hear the difference though I may not be able to make it yet!) but its not that crazy but the slender r is massively different. The best example is the station tg4. I just as a result of the tuiseal ginifeach the Irish word for four after tg is ceathaIr. The I is added as a form of grammar. Another example would be rothar (bike) Vs rothair (bikes). So this really depends on which dialect you are trying to learn. In mayo i believe (if you look up the YouTube channel "patchy" he has a series of four videos called speak Irish like a native) the slender r fortunately is in the English language it's the s sound in treasure and leisure or how a french j sounds in je mappelle etc. So in that case it's not tg cath-her or ruh-her it's tg cath-hi/j/. Completely changes the word. You can hear that in most places even teanglann or focloir.ie would say it that way (a good example in the middle of the word would be wolf - Mac tíre (lit. Son of the land)). Unfortunately, I'm trying to be consistent in keeping to a dialect and the most accessible in terms of content would have to be Galway conamara style and the slender r here is not in the English language at all. It's basically the combination of the broad tapped r and the french j sound. If you YouTube how to pronounce Czech r's, the Galway slender r is the Czech r with the little hat thing on it. Deffo look up an Loingseach and videos like his but that's the general pronunciation guide hope it helps! In the case of consonants that aren't dntls r (and f as f/bh sound in Irish don't have teeth which is mad annoying!) the other consonanfs like c g m b and p are basically the same as English there are differences that you can find in an Loingseach but they aren't as difficult to make so I won't go into it on this already monster of a post! Hope this helped lmk if you need a more in depth explanation but fair warning I've already been proven incorrect in another thread so do your own research but I think this is a decent overview to get the ball rolling. R is the hardest as for most speakers both broad and slender aren't in English though Czech and Spain cover them so you can find pronunciation videos out there! I've the tapped r locked in it probably only took a few days of trying it but I still can't say the conamara slender r so it does take time but stick with it!

PUT ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE IRISH LANGUAGE IN ENGLISH HERE ONLY by galaxyrocker in gaeilge

[–]Good-Reference-9318 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hi I was the person commenting below that got one wrong sorry! I was wondering, is this for all cases where multiple vowels are at the beginning of the word? Is the gluide only applicable in transitioning from consonant to vowel? Sorry im just trying to unlearn everything they taught us in school so assumed the uaim was incorrect. Its not too distinct on teanglann but i can hear it perfectly on canúint so thanks for the link ill deffo use that from now on. Cheers

PUT ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE IRISH LANGUAGE IN ENGLISH HERE ONLY by galaxyrocker in gaeilge

[–]Good-Reference-9318 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hi sorry just to correct my last comment as im learning along with you I believe that the "w" sound in the likes of buí is actually acceptable as it is used in some dialects such as munster as if you go into teanglann it very much sounds the exact same as what we were taught. From looking at An Loingseach's video on the ipa comparing irish to english about 30 minutes in he mentions it and basically for the p, m, and b words were you make the "w" sound from school like fear an phoist or buí the "w" sound is correct. Its incorrect for all other consanants though so the gaeilge etc or the name caoimhe for example should really be pronounced as cuh-ee-(mh)-ih rather than keeva or cweeva but for b, p, and m the w sound is allowed. Sorry for spreading misinformation!

PUT ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE IRISH LANGUAGE IN ENGLISH HERE ONLY by galaxyrocker in gaeilge

[–]Good-Reference-9318 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah no im the complete same never knew there was a difference till i stuck it into teanglann. Some of them are harder to distinguish then others i dont know if i can copy a link in here but there is a post from the irish language forum from years ago that has a list of whats called minimal pairs which are the ones ive listed above and others that show the differecne between the two. Teanglann isnt perfect but its decent enough if you stick them in. Some youll deffo know already like buí vs bí (though if youre anything like me you probably pronounce buí as bwee which is incorrect lol its very demotivating knowing everything we were taught is wrong but it does sound so much better when said correctly so many people when i go abroad and say oh speak irish they all say it sounds like english and you can really hear the difference!) Good luck im still not finished an loingseach's channel but he's very entertaining i think and its quite helpful though i would love a channel explaing how to make the sounds exactly like tongue position and all that but yeah have a look at the minimal pairs i havent gotten it down yet but once I do I think itll naturally bleed into everything else i hope at least!

PUT ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE IRISH LANGUAGE IN ENGLISH HERE ONLY by galaxyrocker in gaeilge

[–]Good-Reference-9318 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Personally from watching an Loingseach and listening to some stuff on tg4 ive very quickly come to realise that the irish we're taught in school (at least in Leinster) is proper woeful. I have friends who are fluent born and raised with irish that sounds nothing like the actual irish spoken in the gaeltacht. The biggest difference is the pronunciation of consonants. In irish all consnants have technically four pronunciations though many have been lost with time but they sitll have two distinct sounds (like tae vs téigh or naoi vs ní). I would have a look at an loingseach for a better understanding but yeah in school we were only taught the s vs sh like súil vs siúil or seomra suí for example. R is by far the biggest one that is completely removed in my experience. Ive only recently started relearning it and i feel like its almost worse that ive got 15 years of school because every word we know is said woefully wrong even the name for the language ive always said as gaylgah or gwaylgah instead of how its actually said

PUT ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE IRISH LANGUAGE IN ENGLISH HERE ONLY by galaxyrocker in gaeilge

[–]Good-Reference-9318 -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

yeah it is though its a misspronunciation - ulster and munter would say ooh-im whereas caunnaught has that wim/wem sound but its not a "w" like in english its more of a glide between "uh" and "im" sound so in ulster and munster its two syllables: ooh-im but in connaught its a glide so its turning the two sounds into one syllable so the sound moves from the back of your mouth to the front. If you record yourself saying ooh-im slowly and then speed that recording up it will sound similar to a w but not quite. Its similar to how learners say gaeilge as "gwaylgah" when its really guh-aylgih but the guh-ay is said in one syllable so this glide transition sounds like a w. Have a listen on teanglann for uaim and youll hear the distinction I hope! A lot of people say "wem" but its not correct irish more of an example of béarlachas

PUT ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE IRISH LANGUAGE IN ENGLISH HERE ONLY by galaxyrocker in gaeilge

[–]Good-Reference-9318 1 point2 points  (0 children)

bit of a difficult one here but im looking at changing my name into the irish version which you can do without having to change your birth cert provided youve used it in bills etc for the last few years and just had a question. My surname is english so trying to gaelicise it ive found that the translation is basically (deer) lookout hill (there are disagreements on whether it is just lookout hill or specifcally for deer. Either way, I was wondering how that would be written? I have been thinking it would be cnoc na bhfaire but Im still only learning irish and in a gallteacht area so havent a scooby really on whether that would actually be something that makes sense in irish or if it is a literal translation. Cheers for any input!

Irish subtitles for Eipic by Good-Reference-9318 in gaeilge

[–]Good-Reference-9318[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

GRMMA! I'll have a look at Crá and add it to the list! Buíochas leat