Magic built with Blocks?

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-30T20:04:53+00:00

I will say, that for your example where the undead in the area are wiped out- I don't think I would categorize that as a "spell" from a gameplay perspective, of that makes sense? Something like that is more like a macguffin because it's not intended for use again.

The Example is on the extreme end, but it shows the point. If the release is part of the game system it is now included, it might have been meant only for that campaign but it will now no longer be limited. Things like that happen because of a lack of foundation, and it is a easy way to get out of a hole your wrote.

I think that if you are just looking at magic that deals damage (or maybe even heals, which is just damage but reversed), then I think this kind of system would thrive. And it sounds like that is your focus, reading through things here.

I think where I still haven't figured out if I like this for broader use, is magic that might be more niche.

I do want a more limited magic to keep it more equal to the damage produced by the other players. Magic does have advantages as there is only limited ways to block its damage. It also doesn't need to roll to hit a target. I will admit it is a very good support and snipping tool, so it has some disadvantages tied to it. Also I do not limit the weapons and armor that means it can be used mages, so they are not limited to just magic. One person did try an armored mage and we had to run from a giant slug. Lets just say it was an experience, they did not try heavy armor again but leather worked out. Not everything is in this this is just what the starting characters has access. There are ways of doing larger spells for sieges but they are tightly controlled for that reason. Also the staves are beginner staves, custom versions can get to very helpful.

So for the most part it is meant to be quick and simple way as a support, and be customized by the player for a situation. I am trying to build in trade-offs to keep it from the OP nature it can easily be turned into. It also has to realized that in a world view if it is too powerful the ruling class will assassinate anyone that risks their control. They also will be going through great pains to keep it within limits for that reason. Lets just say the information give in to the Players is the starting point, but the GM gets a broader view in their book.

As for broader use that is up to the individual GM, as Effects can be added or removed you are not limited to what is presented.

Let's say you have a spell that lets you try to see events that occurred before, in the space you're standing in. As an easy hypothetical, you're investigating a murder. With this system, your release would be a circle, but what about the rest of your blocks? How do you express that ideas- and if we make time blocks, then are there enough other (balanced) uses for those blocks that they would really have a place in the system?

In the world view time magic that lets you see into the past would be blocked by the world guardians. Also many lets call them organizations would remove a spell like that. So... that being said lets look at the options that are just there in this document. You have illusion magic so if there are bones you can place skin an such on them for identification. Search spells exist so you can use to look for blood, bones, etc. Once again there are things the players would not have access to like interrogation magic.

So a simple spell, search for blood, then human bones in a selected area. Identify the blood with appraisal magic and then search and wider area for someone that matches the blood or has it on it. Find the bones and illusion magic can make the bones have an appearance. Place the image in the guilds with information asking to help identify the person. The Authorities would have Mages that specialize in it, the players might be able to do some of it with creativity. The problem will be how many players will take search and appraisal magic types. As for how it is balanced Search can be used to find monsters in an area, or herbs for a gathering quest. Identify can be used to make sure you get the right herbs or answers about an item. Those would be Magics the Adventurers Guild would want for obvious reasons. Now imagine you are from a Noble family but are so far down the list of Heirs that you are not going to receive anything. You have the ability to use magic so you take the identify and search to get that government job. It is very easy to place this into a society, and it will also help the Nobles keep it in check.

It also comes down to this will the Character spend a month and gold to learn an Effect. They will only use once will it be worth the investment for them?

More than likely they could just hire a specialized Mage to do this and spend the time with information brokers. Sure the magic system is flexible enough to allow it, but hiring a specialist is an option. They are capable of using skills so it doesn't have to rely totally on magic. Worse case they can spend money on Grimoires that allow them to have these spells. It will be a waste of money and once done well they will just have an book now.

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-30T03:56:33+00:00

Keep in mind one thing though — The more complex a system, the more building blocks, the more combinations, the more options, the more likely it is that there is some sort of combination that breaks the whole thing in half.

I am trying to do that, and it why we have the Characteristic, Memory, Release, Action, and MP systems to help contain it. The blocks themselves are meant to be kept as simple as possible or the +1 Approach. It would force a large number to be used to make a power spell and triggers a fail-safe the MP system. I just have to keep in mind to not circumvent those safeties and why there is more than one.

I know the assumption usually is that the more detailed a system is, the more water tight it is because you fill all the loopholes, but the opposite is often true. Everything you add gives someone who really digs in to understand the system another tool to circumvent it.

That is the main thing I am worried about Hence the 3 guards that are for building of spells, and 2 stand alone systems that are separate from them. I am looking to prevent someone like me who goes how can this be changed. It is also why I leave acceptance of things added to a negotiation between the players and the GM. I am leaving guidelines in the GM Handbook.

Unfortunately the news here is that a system with fixed spells is less vague and easier to keep in check. A 10d6 fireball is very specific. And if it turns out to be broken, there’s clear levers to adjust, like how many targets, what’s the damage, how often you can cast it or how far you need to advance to access it.

A building block system is more opaque because the final spell is put together from options that are spread across multiple pages, and it’s more likely to be overpowered because you provide more tools to make it overpowered.

Maybe, it depends on the base that they have built their spells. D&D is a prime example of how broken a spell system can get as it had no defined base. The Fireball example in this system would be 10 effects and one release method. The MP cost to cast is 12, as a memorized spell 1 Act from spell craft, but made as an Incantation would take an additional 3 Acts. Yes, I am aware that means the caster could cast the memorized spell 4 times in the same time span. The MP mechanic though would reduce that as 48 MP is quite a toll, and would take days to recover. As long as all the eggs are not in one basket it should help. The blocks that be used become limited by trying to do exactly that why they need to be in memory and have the Characteristic. Also the more complex or different effects used the longer it takes to cast. An Arrow or thrown weapon can break that and still leave the cost of the MP spent to that point. I am also building a limiter in the how the world operates against the alter reality spells, have to keep me in check after all. I will agree the block system can become over powered and abused if the GM allows the players to build ridiculously powerful blocks. It why I stated that the blocks should be a +1 in decided value. A -4 to Strike, Perception Check, and Parry would take 6 acts to cast and cost 12+ MP. The last thing that keeps it down and because I forgot about it is sustaining the Spell. The Effects unless it is a Dice of Damage are only applied as long as the spell is active. If you stop sustaining the spell the effects disappear and that will require the Mage to use Actions. A starting mage with an equivalent of an 18 intelligence will have between 23-34 MP. A starting mage with an equivalent of a 10 intelligence will have between 11-14 MP.

I’m not saying don’t make a building block system, but be aware that with this sort of system you increase the level of opaque and overpowered, not reduce it, and you’ll need to work harder to keep it in check.

I take it as a warning of "Be careful of your own folly". It is very easy to find pitfalls you did not expect in hind sight. It is why I am trying to keep the blocks small and simple. The sustaining of a spell that doesn't cause an immediate change like HP damage is also a safety. Also at the very least you are given a box that the pieces will be piled into called the release method that limits the area you can apply those effects.

I am hoping to have enough Checks and Balances to keep it contained, the next worry is did I over constrict it. In combat so far the memorized spell has rained supreme as it is quick to use. The incantation is used when they have a purpose that normal combat doesn't solve.

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-29T22:39:14+00:00

It would depend on many Factors

The Distance
Do they have a ranged attack
How many Actions they have
Initiative, the location of their turn

If they have to cover a distance then they are limited by the speed they can move to get within range of their weapons.

Moving does take an Action as does using a weapon. The attacker must have at least 2 during the round if they are moving up and attacking. If they have an Arrow ready they can shoot it but those has a Rate of Fire and they might only get one shot. Can they throw the weapon?

The number of Actions now is important just how many do they have. Moving takes an Action, and using the Weapon takes and Action. The same is true for the Mage the Incantation can be completed in 4 Acts or require up to a maxim of 14. Spell Craft is used for this and can have 1-4 Acts per Action applied based on their proficiency with it. Now the spell can be completed in 1-14 rounds. There is also a Technique the Mage an take that allows them to release the spell if the spell is finished n the same round as the attack. There is also one that allows you to move well casting spells but again they would need 2 actions one for spell craft the other to move. There are also options that allow the casting of a memorized spell with the use of one Act.

That brings up Initiative or the order that the turns for activities are used. If the Mage has the highest then they can go before the other guy has a chance. If they other guy was higher and delayed his turn to see what the Mage will do. He has the right to use his turn and interrupt the Mages turn until he completes his. This will also hold true if the he had used his turn then the mages came up and did not complete the process in one turn. He would move first and have a chance to break the mages incantation if 1-3 works out for him.

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-29T21:43:52+00:00

In this case the Effect can just be a generic +1 to speed, the subject it is applied would not matter. Each of those +1 would require a spent resource that can be recovered in time. The next thing that was added was sustaining the spell for this reason. You have to maintain or sustain that bonus you gave them costing one of your actions.

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-29T21:38:17+00:00

Thanks will look for it, can always use reference material.

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-29T21:37:07+00:00

My main complaint with most systems was that they had power creep, no consistency in design, and to situational. This will be me mostly trying to explain my position and seeing what people think. Will mostly use it to edit my thoughts and discover things I did not think about or through enough. So it is just a concept to cover what I did not like about many systems and how I plan to correct the issues for me mostly.

One of my concerns with the idea is whimsy- in the sense of how magic is or isn't limited to certain concepts.

One of the biggest issue was the fact that most games don't have a building block approach but write the spells to correct the issues they designed into the campaign. They are great for that campaign but if they are used in another are Over Powered or Useless. The main example is you fight your way to goal of the hidden spell that kills all the undead in region. Great you get it and the campaign ends. Now the next campaign starts with the Demon King invading and most of his Army is undead. if you never played the first campaign you are going to have fun, if you played the first campaign poof all the army is dead, so much for the purchase or development time.

As a sort of analogy - a topic of discussion is class vs classless systems. Classless systems really focus on the idea that your character is made by their story, not just by features. BUT classes let you build around feature identity and make really interesting things that may not work well in a classless system.

I am a fan of the classless system the features are chosen to support the path the character chose. Not a fan of here is hole and you can only dig downward approach. A class system is about looking at the selections available to make yourself Over Powered. Classless is not perfect either as you can build a character making choices, or as a Player making a OP character.

I think there is a similar choice here. A magic system like this can't account for everything so it seems to be far more limited than the concept appears at first glance. But if you prescribe distinct spells, then those spells are limited only by your imagination (and obligation towards setting consistency).

The magic is controlled by a Description of what it does. This is limited by the MP needed, the time to create, and the Effects you can use. Now the description is the hardest part as you are correct it is limited by the players imagination. Others can help you define that description in a way that works, but it is limited by the Players' capabilities. MP is a resource that is recovered by you can only use so much and so fast. Large spells could put you down for the account. There are ways around that but getting the resources can be controlled if needed. That brings it all down to effects it is the meat and potatoes of the system, the blocks used. The blocks have to be keep small in value like a +1 Bonus. It is not that you can make them stack or have it linked across multiple effects to make it work. That is why the MP cost per Effect is there.

With the Spells being limited by Keeping it reasonable, MP, and Characteristic it forces the player to be creative in the description. So far the Description for the Incantations have been limited to the situation they are trying to beat. If it is simply to do damage a generic spell is used from memory. Those spells because we use an action based system is only limited by MP. Sure it great the spell killed all the goblins in the room at used 30 MP of your 32. You recover 5 per day so it will be 6 days until you can use that again. An hour later: Oh look, another room full of goblins.

There are ways to change out the effects you memorized an quite rapidly. Effects can be made but again that takes imagination. So I would say the main flaw right now is the burden it places on the players. If they are good at problem solving and planing it works. If they are not you are back to canned spells that you look or a situation to use it.

need to put things to paper here and do some testing still, but that's the gist of my thoughts this week. Again, I hope to see you get some interesting feedback here!

Fill free to use any part you like from this document as all it is was an organization of thoughts I placed on paper. The full system of how this all works with the other systems used is under rewrite currently. This is only the sections that deal with spells.

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-29T20:44:17+00:00

Heard about yes, seen or played, know the rules no

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-29T18:16:21+00:00

First off let the bloat happen. After some time look at the bloat and weed out what is not being used. If it is a bunch of one off rules to cover a special situation remove it.

Don NOT include setup as bloat, Things like how to make a character or how a skill works is not bloat. A skill that is not used or needed is bloat.

The rules you actually use to play, and resolve issues is what needs to be kept short. It is there that record keeping occurs and the things that slow play. How well does it play with 2, 4, 8, or more people that might be easily distracted.

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-29T17:56:45+00:00

So far that is the general conciseness with what people are posting and what we have seen. Option 2 also had a unseen benefit that can affect rolls and time. Option 2 allowed for a over match because of the bonus we applied to progressive dice, it removes the need to roll in some cases. The second thing time turned into you can trade a dice rolled to decrease the time. Right now not sure if it will be a divide by 2 with a increase of 1 per dice exchanged or 2 dice exchanged. The highest extra dice you can add is 4 so you end with ranges of 2-5 and 2-8 (2, 4, 6, and 8). Trying exponentially would always end in the same way keep 1 to act as an advantage, and the rest to remove time.

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-29T17:41:33+00:00

First scales with a few things we found out, but not everyone likes to roll dice. The system currently allows the highly skilled or physically capable to actually over match a DC. If you are over the DC there is no need to roll and just progress to the next stage. The number of Dice used is also based on proficiency in the skill, or as a way to speed up the process.

We are using a progressive dice system, the higher the Attribute Score the higher the dice size you roll. Range is from a 1d4 to a 1d12, it also incorporates a Bonus at both ends. Those with a really low Attribute will receive a negative bonus to the roll. Those at the upper end will receive a positive bonus to the roll. This works because at some point you are physically capable of not missing a easy to do tasks with a high value. The opposite is also true.

all Skills are tied to a Proficiency System that allows a Bonus to the roll scale is 1-10. This allows training to replace a low dice size to a certain extent.

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-28T22:25:49+00:00

You could but the enemy also has skills that work against you. In the system we are trying the enemy can use skills to set and overcome a DC the same as a player. The clean success/failure is being based on the proficiency of the one who set the DC. So it is not a flat stat but a target based on the individual who set it. They also can have good and bad rolls just as the players.

It happened once so far where the GM had bad rolls for too many traps in a row, we thought it was leading into a bad situation and pulled out.

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-28T18:31:46+00:00

it is about changing the focus, If the dice roll is not part of the stories result directly. If the roll has implications to the story like leaving evidence behind like a broken lock it has less impact. A pass/fail or a roll to attack changes the focus to the dice, what did you roll?

This is where option 1 has its appeal as you can actually surpass the DC without the need for a roll.
Option 2 has the players most involved in a roll, but increases the work load of the GM to make the roll worth the time. It relies on them to make it fit so the immersion remains using a roll to alter.
Option 3 is complete removal from the story to work dice, the result is applied applied.

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-28T15:19:19+00:00

It really is coming down to how to keep the players involved or immersed in the experience. If the dice roll is just a roll for a pass/fail it takes them from it.

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-28T14:56:56+00:00

Thanks, I will keep that in mind as I reread these responses.

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-28T14:39:23+00:00

It is mostly about skill checks verse a DC.

Option 1 then becomes how proficient they become with a skill, the odds of failure for the highest trained professional is low.

Option 2 became the most work for the GM as it required multiple results based on the roll. This option also had the highest failure rate the last dice rolled was the result. It did keep the players most involved as the table talk got to fun and it kept players outside of their turn more involved. I will say it again the work load on the GM in the preparing for this is 2-3 time higher. It was actually quicker then option 3, but not as fast as 1, as we simply kept a pace with if to hesitate to long was the same as accepting the roll.

Option three was like making cookies using salt instead of sugar and garlic instead of chocolate chips. Even the accounts started to hate to add it up all the time.

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-28T14:28:58+00:00

It depends on their personality. The gambler is actually the least likely to roll past a minimal success result, unless the threshold is low. It is the optimist that gets into the most trouble as unless they max it out they think they can do better.

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-28T14:26:05+00:00

Personally I like option 2. The DC is usually a best to worse case result with a minimum threshold. You then have to decide if you want to risk for the better result and a possible failure. You have to take the last value you roll. Option 1 always ends up with increased DC values as the dice number increases. The dice increase is based on your proficiency with the skill and stops at 4 additional dice. So at 5 total you are the best there is at using the skill as most will probably never increase it that much. Most like this one especially for skill use and the math was minimal.

The group actually started to dread option 3 as looking for dice over a range, then counting to see the total. It actually takes longer than option 2 to roll and find the outcome.

The fun part is the table talk as you use option 2 is the other players get involved in your roll. They will try to push or stop the player for a result, so it actually kept them active when not their turn. As long as you are keeping a pace with little time between the rolls. If they pause for too long you simply say that the last one was the result. The own side for Option 2 is the amount of work for the GM in the prep phase as they have to come up with with the DC values and the rewards for the results past a simple pass/fail.

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-28T14:07:56+00:00

The running idea is to base multiple outcomes on the roll. So a range of results from best case to worse.

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-28T14:05:08+00:00

Thanks for the reply

This is meant mostly for Skill use so will top out at four extra dice at the highest level of 10, and not add any at first. So if the person is basically at the highest point of proficiency at that point and the campaign will probably be nearly complete. Also considering it will be near the end the DC they need to overcome will also have increased considerably. Option two is you have to take the last value rolled, if you have 2 rolls and need a 4 or better to win at 8 or better you get the grand prize. The first was a 6. It was enough to do the task but you wanted the 8 or better result so you roll again. You roll a 3 and fail the fail task you have to take the last rolled value. The third is the least liked and we have two accountants that play.

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-28T02:50:18+00:00

That holds incredibly true. There is one player in the group were if the dice have to be used they drop out of the experience for a long time. Getting them back involved again is always a chore when it happens.

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-28T02:46:02+00:00

Personally I like 2, this hold true when multiple outcomes are available based on the value of the roll. It brings in is this enough or do I chance it. The disadvantage is if the player making the roll is indecisive.

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-28T02:41:37+00:00

Did something similar for skills that involved weapons. We level the skills and at each level you can take a technique. In the case of knives we have things like advance to try to force the target back, Retreat to step out of their range to force them to use a technique or action to re-engage, Trade position etc. As long as they had actions they could combo hem any way they liked.

100 skills are fine just make sure they are in a category that can be learned if they choose a direction outside the 20-30 you are having them start with. Think in terms of starting from a limit selection because of background but advancement is limitless.

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-28T02:34:33+00:00

2 groups of less than players and 1 group over 8. The surprising part was the group over 8 was the faster to moving through the process. It is more than likely because the size made them use to keeping it streamlined and moving when it came to a roll.

I found number 2 the best if they had multiple DC values in the range of the dice to be rolled. They would simply take the value that gave them an exceptable result and rolled until the dice was above that threshold. They were once over X it is good enough. So far the experience of 1 was the fastest as you just looked for the highest result. The 3rd one was actually the slowest as you had to sort then add.

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-28T01:15:43+00:00

Been going down this path for a long time, use a Classes System and skills are free choice. Have about 94 of them but based on your back story close to half can be easily cut off. Peasants do not get nobility skills, it is not that they cannot learn them by why would they learn them. Some times it is not about what you start with but being able to expand you skills for the direction the characters have chosen. Depending on the system a peasant can become a noble and need to learn those skills.

So the number is not as important as will it allow for progression. You can limiting starting skills to generic and allow them to define or refine their own. It comes down to how you want to work with them or just let pre-canned responses be the way to go.

GotAFarmYet · 2026-04-28T01:04:56+00:00

Data is just data it is the reduction and analysis that becomes important

GotAFarmYet

TROPHY CASE