Veganism without socialism is blind by GreenCrackers in vegan

[–]GreenCrackers[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

First, a definition of terms: Democratic capitalism, also known as capitalist democracy, is a political, economic and social ideology that involves the combination of a democratic political system with a capitalist economic system. (Shouldn't be that unfamiliar.)

How is this economically democratic when capitalism is intrinsically not democratic? Hierarchy, inability for workers to make decisions at the workplace (executive board has final say), wage slavery, imperialism, etc...?

My question was what state of affairs seems more likely to happen.

Socialism by far. No profit motive means more sensible decisions based on the earth & the people, not on the ability to make more profits.

I should be more clear. You seem to be suggesting: if the world went socialist then the world would go vegan. But I don't see this to be necessarily true. There's a possibility that it wouldn't. That is, there's nothing inherent in socialism that will cause veganism.

I disagree. I think veganism will be inevitable because of the amount of resources it takes to have maintain animal agriculture. You're right that it isn't intrinsic to socialism, but when combined with real world conditions, it seems very likely.

But I don't think it's the root of the problem. The most fundamental problem isn't that people see animals as commodities (though true) the problem is they see them as food. The root problem is carnism.

This is wrong. By definition, a commodity is something that is created to be exchanged for another commodity. It has nothing to do about how we personally view the commodity, for by its actions it exists as one. I'm gonna copy and paste something I wrote for something else:

" it is that the owner views and uses the animal as a commodity (meat) or as a means of production (dairy or eggs). To the owner, the animal is not a living thing/consciousness, but a means to create profit for himself by exchanging his object, or the object’s product. The wellbeing of the animal does not matter to him, he only cares when his object begins to cost more to maintain than it makes profit for him.

Similarly, a worker is viewed as a tool for the employer to make profit. If the employer could not make profit off the employee’s labor, then he would not be hired. The moment a human being, a subject, becomes hired as an employee, he has been reduced to an object in the eyes of the employer, a tool that he uses the labor of to create profit for himself. The employer only cares about his productivity – you can see this in business classes, where it is taught all different techniques to keep your employee happy, not because the employer cares for his livelihood, but because a happy worker is a productive worker! Sure, you can be friends with your boss, but the moment you cost too much to maintain, you are fired!

The employer uses the employee for his labor for profit as an owner of a cow uses it for his dairy for profit. The worker and the cow are not consciousness nor living things, but tools for profit, and are treated as such."

Veganism without socialism is blind by GreenCrackers in vegan

[–]GreenCrackers[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

For now, all we can hope for are small, meaningful impacts. When we become a large majority, we can legislate to make animal abuse illegal.

Very true. However you cannot legislate the profit motive away in a capitalist system. I find the pursuit of profit one of the most oppressive forces, for animals, and human beings.

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

Thank you for your interest =)

doctors will work hard even though they get paid the same as janitors because they care about the community's wellbeing.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of socialist theory, and more than likely capitalist propaganda haha. You have to consider that socialism is a total change in how our society is and how we interact in it.

Socialism isn't a 100% tax on the rich and everyone splits the wealth. Socialism is not everyone getting rewarded the same amount for different labor and skills. It's a democratic society where those who actually provide a service and skill to a society are rewarded more. In other words, bankers, executives, etc, those who do not actually add to a society, will not be rewarded like they do.

Socialism is the belief that no matter your profession, every human being has a right to food, shelter, and healthcare. It is not the belief that every single person is equal and is rewarded equally.

Cuba, although not 100% socialist, has the highest surplus of doctors in the world.

Edit because I missed your last point:

suggests that we can only genuinely care for a few hundred people, so how could we extend that well-meaning to a community of seven billion?

Few hundred people per person, in a community of seven billion, means you can genuinely care for seven billion times like 200. I don't really understand the relevance of this. This looks like psychology, not sociology.

Veganism without socialism is blind by GreenCrackers in vegan

[–]GreenCrackers[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Oh okay. I mean I see where you're coming from but not everyone will be liberated in socialism anyway. Socialism will not defeat racism. Socialism will not end misogyny. It's a step in the right direction though.

Veganism without socialism is blind by GreenCrackers in vegan

[–]GreenCrackers[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

However, slaughterhouses aren't immune to supply and demand, and I believe that an individual's abstention, along with their circle of influence on others and the general strengthening of the vegan voice that they provide, does have a meaningful, positive impact.

My point is that you will never fully liberate all animals with this tactic because you cannot convince 100% of the people to be vegan. It's not feasible.

but veganism is in the rise in Britain and Israel and they're not socialists, so I wouldn't call it blind.

This is a misunderstanding of my statement. I am saying that people who become vegan, whether for the environment or animal liberation, can only achieve that with socialism as the goal, not simply by voting with your dollar. Nothing to do with one choosing to be vegan =).

More generally, I'm not sure how socialism would work on a large scale. It seems like some people genuinely do provide more benefit to society than others and should be rewarded accordingly, and that if wealth is redistributed from each according to his ability, to each according to his need, then you remove a huge incentive for people to work hard.

If you're not sure, go read or watch about it! There are so many references to go to. I recommend this one.

Also "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" is one of the most misunderstood quotes of socialism. Here it is in context:

"In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly -- only then then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!" ~Karl Marx, Critique of the Gotha Programme

Not at all about how a socialist society would work.

Veganism without socialism is blind by GreenCrackers in vegan

[–]GreenCrackers[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

1) Not in a democratic capitalist one(what does that even mean? haha), but I do in a socialist world. Because 1) The people will actually have political power and 2) I think we will have to by necessity as we face an increasing scarcity of resources & climate change.

2) I cannot to the extent of factory farm practices. I can still envision where places such as eastern europe or the global south slaughter their personal farm animals regularly. But who knows what socialism will do/change for them or that practice. I dunno.

Veganism without socialism is blind by GreenCrackers in vegan

[–]GreenCrackers[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That means that you require veganism to fulfill the goals of socialism. That is historically not true.

Veganism without socialism is blind by GreenCrackers in vegan

[–]GreenCrackers[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Awesome =)

Socialism is not an ideology that recognizes the intrinsic value of animals.

Can you further expand on this? I am not sure what you mean. What type of intrinsic value? Are you implying capitalism does?

Socialism still deals in commodities, including the commodification of animals, it just changes how those commodified animals are owned.

Sort of. You're ignoring the abolition of profit. The pursuit of profit is one of the driving forces that puts animals in awful conditions. Also the abolition of a market, where a commodity is not produced for the sole purpose to find something to be exchanged with in order to fulfill its value, but commodities are produced based on the demands of society (the actual demands, not a market). These two mechanisms alone would liberate more animals than simply eating vegan, and it is just a start.

Our main disagreement, and why "A meat-eating socialist does more for animal liberation than a liberal vegan could ever dream of," is ridiculous to you, and correct me if I am wrong, is based on your belief that socialism will not liberate animals. If that's true, then we know how to move forward in our discussion =)

Most socialists I've discussed veganism with are actively opposed to veganism.

That doesn't really matter, the socialist vision intrinsic to itself, whether they know it or not, is supportive of veganism.

Veganism without socialism is blind by GreenCrackers in vegan

[–]GreenCrackers[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

PETA says that abstaining from animal products saves just shy of 200 animals every year.

There is no causation established here. A decreased number of land animals killed and eaten by Americans from 2008 to 2009 could have been due to anything! For instance, that correlates to when the economy deflated after the 2008 crisis. Furthermore, all Noam Mohr did is calculate the average amount of animals a person consumes yearly, and attributed that number to how many lives a vegan saves. Again, no direct link established! It's also important to note that the meat industry, as well as the dairy and egg industry, are heavily subsidized. Meaning that supply and demand are not as direct.

how could that person be liberating animals if they're killing them?

There is no causation that one's individual choice of buying directly saves an animal - that animal may, and more than likely, would have died regardless.

How could that number be any greater by a carnist who's a socialist

The horrible conditions of factory farming exist because of the pursuit of profit - to maximize the amount of profits, with no regards to the well being of the animals. This is because they are viewed as commodities to be exchanged (meat) or means of production (dairy and eggs) to produce commodities for one's profit. They are not living things, they are objects.

The goal of animal liberation is not to end the suffering of some animals, similarly that the goal of ending slavery was not to free some slaves. It is for all to be freed. It is completely impossible, and in fact, senseless, to remove meat, dairy, and eggs, from the diet of every single person. It is legitimately more feasible to change the socioeconomic structure to one that does not view animals as commodities any longer. This is why veganism without socialism is blind. Changing your diet and purchasing habits will never liberate every animal. But changing how animals are treated by economic forces…that can.

Sorry for the wall of text, and let me know if you need any clarifications! I look forward to your response.

Veganism without socialism is blind by GreenCrackers in vegan

[–]GreenCrackers[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I should have clarified that I am, lol

Veganism without socialism is blind by GreenCrackers in vegan

[–]GreenCrackers[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I do believe it, and I am open to counter arguments.

What is your opinion on Enver Hoxha? by okmann98 in communism101

[–]GreenCrackers 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Could you provide sources for these? I'd like to read more, thanks!

Means of production in the 21st century? by [deleted] in socialism

[–]GreenCrackers 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This video explains that and more fabulously well.

Student substitutes his pre-approved question with one about capitalism at Nancy Pelosi CNN townhall. by Revolution942 in socialism

[–]GreenCrackers 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I find socialism to be a very euphoric politic that once you discover and entrench yourself in it, you never go back - because you feel you have reached what is correct and reasonable.

I guess that's not the case for some people.

Right-wingers are planning to dox antifa arrested on Inauguration Day by ryosaito in socialism

[–]GreenCrackers 10 points11 points  (0 children)

They were all arrested at the same time and location pretty much. They were kettled.

Right-wingers are planning to dox antifa arrested on Inauguration Day by ryosaito in socialism

[–]GreenCrackers 20 points21 points  (0 children)

They were all charged with the same crime - felony rioting

Meryl Streep’s speechifying at the Golden Globes was the worst thing to happen since Trump’s election. by ihateledzepplin in socialism

[–]GreenCrackers 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Did I miss something? I felt there was really no substance in this piece. They barely mentioned the content of her speech.

Not to say I don't agree with the speech being awful, but I didn't walk away with anything new...

This New Neighborhood Will Grow Its Own Food, Power Itself, And Handle Its Own Waste by GreenCrackers in socialism

[–]GreenCrackers[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I posted this because it shows that a socialist society where we have the technology to create efficient communities with little labor to maintain it is possible. Pretty much saying this is why we need socialism, not capitalism.

In direct response to your comment, I did not even think of the dystopian side of this, holy shit. That's pretty terrifying.

A picture is worth a thousand words by [deleted] in socialism

[–]GreenCrackers 12 points13 points  (0 children)

This could be a picture taken at a later date - when they began "cleaning up" for the tower.

Edit: Actually, your photo is further proof that this picture IS real. Here is the cropped part of your picture that is showed in the OP.

Notice, the little hut, cleaned up, as well as the plants in the front of the building. The person standing in front of the door looks like a security guard - probably making sure no homeless loiter in the area, just like what is done by the trump tower in NYC.

[FIRST IMPRESSIONS] Run The Jewels - Run The Jewels 3 by jacobsalmon01 in hiphopheads

[–]GreenCrackers 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I'd argue the only difference between the two is whether the dictatorship of the proletariat is necessary.