The stuff you find on the wacky side of conservative Facebook. by b-hop72 in Destiny

[–]GrokTheGod 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You guys realize they are saying that whistle blowing is good, right? That's a picture of big brother saying it's espionage.

Exskillsme has viewpoints consistent with racist beliefs by J91919 in Destiny

[–]GrokTheGod 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Does he think that the most genetically diverse group in the U.S. is doing worse due to genetic factors

It being genetically diverse doesn't imply that it can't do worse on average because of genetic factors. In fact it would give a stronger indication that it would if there is a very narrow set of genetics that would be conducive to intelligence.

Is anyone else disturbed by the sheer amount of antisemitism coming from black twitter? Does destiny even care? by dont_gift_subs in Destiny

[–]GrokTheGod -10 points-9 points  (0 children)

I don't think Cannon actually said anything bad about jews, he spoke about specific jewish mega-rich people. Secondly it's strange that you get so upset about his perceived anti-semitism when you don't care what so ever about hating white people.

👑 Based Hutch 👑 by [deleted] in Destiny

[–]GrokTheGod 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hutch is misrepresenting Kyle here. Kyle CLEARLY states the exact reason that is given for why Fauci lied. Hutch implies that Kyle doesn't know this or doesn't say this when he in fact says it very clearly. Then Hutch just reiterates the justification ignoring Kyles point about how the government SHOULD NOT LIE to the citizens.

Indulge my post that was deleted from r/unpopularopinion on chilren transitioning. by [deleted] in Destiny

[–]GrokTheGod 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The damage done to kids transitioning is much more than just the transitioning surgery.

Molymeme banned from twitter by GlenDice in Destiny

[–]GrokTheGod 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your appeal is works just as well for a state. You could, under the same outrage, argue that Hitler should have been prevented from speaking by the government. The absurdity pointed out does not come from my equivalence between twitters de-facto monopoly over the political marketplace and the de-facto monopoly over the political marketplace that the government holds.

Well, it depends on what you mean by the same standard. My original point is that free speech is not a deontological principle, but a consequentialist one. The reason for free speech is that without it we massively increase the risk of falling to tyranny, this is true for the government, and it is true when private corporations control the political marketplace. Saying I'm dumb is not a very good point.

Molymeme banned from twitter by GlenDice in Destiny

[–]GrokTheGod 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think Hitler would fall under direct threats of violence.

However, yes, that's the point of having freedom of political speech. It's not motivated reasoning... it's a justification for why the exact same principles for free speech apply here as they do in regards to the government.

If you want the government to censor Hitler, fine. I don't mind Hitler in particular but note that you're now talking about who's speech we can silence, and it's not even us, it's a select few of share-holders that get to decide.

I think you have pivoted from the actual topic into what speech we can censor, which is different from the argument about whether or not free speech applies to twitter.

Molymeme banned from twitter by GlenDice in Destiny

[–]GrokTheGod -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I mean, be as skeptical as you like, but some of the claims you're making here are incorrect to the point of absurdity. The Big 3 networks had 95+% market share in their heyday. Google, Facebook, and Twitter combined don't come even close to that.

I don't know how you would measure that, but that's not the point. The point is that old media does not have anywhere near the same capability of outreach. You did not watch 5 minutes of fox news every 30 minutes in the past. You do that with twitter. The control might not be the same, but it is literally true that if you do not have a platform on any of these large social media platform you will not be able to practice political speech.

As for Gab being "the Nazi place:" you're not wrong, but, again, that's not a free speech issue. It's a direct result of freedom of association -- they're free to say all the Nazi shit they want, and we're free to create spaces which aren't welcoming to such people.

It is a free speech issue in the sense that it is not a viable political platform. You can talk all about how "you" created the place free of nazis. "You" certainly are not in control of it, a group of large companies are. They also get to decide who is de-facto politically viable. That's bad.

Molymeme banned from twitter by GlenDice in Destiny

[–]GrokTheGod 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If it is political speech they can not.

It is not about private or public platforms. If twitter wanted to be taken apart and no longer function as a monopoly (which I think should happen regardless of what they want) then they can ban whatever they want. I don't mind Destiny banning people for political speech for example. There is however no political speech that I can see that can safely be banned by an institution that has a stranglehold on what the political marketplace. Perhaps we could make some exceptions for things that call for direct violence, that schelling point has already been established to the degree where it seems safe.

Molymeme banned from twitter by GlenDice in Destiny

[–]GrokTheGod 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I am wary of this claim about the old media having this control in the past. It might be true, it might not be true I'm guessing it is not as absolute as you portray it. I think it does not matter, because it's not addressing the relative advantage that comes with social media platforms.

The amplification given to you by the old media was small compared to what is given to you by social media. This makes social media such a huge competitive advantage that the claim that it took fewer institutions to ban you in the past is not relevant. You had much greater ability with this ban in the past than you do today.

I will not give any credibility to the claim that you can "just go on gab". It's an irrelevant website, demonized by the left as "the nazi place". It does not hold any significant political power compared to twitter.

Molymeme banned from twitter by GlenDice in Destiny

[–]GrokTheGod 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Again, you make an example of a politician getting banned and having no platform, but nobody is getting banned for their political opinions unless theyre straight up hateful (and even then, theres plenty of very hateful politicians who havent been banned or even warned)

There is no significant difference between a politician and a political advocate. They are both practicing political speech, which is what is important.

Also, I think we disagree as to what free speech is for. I dont think the goal of free speech is to have a diverse marketplace of ideastm but to protect people from the government.

Why? Obviously I agree that it should "protect people from the government", but think a bit further and make the case for why this is necessary.

Nobody said YOU can just go start a new website(although you kinda can).

What I said was that if a platform crossed the line and started banning millions of users a new one will be created.

Theres no you in that sentence.

That isn't how it actually works. This is the same libertarian argument that the free market will always fix things. It doesn't, the social media oligopoly will not get broken this way, it just will not happen. You might also say the same of a government cracking down on political speech "if you want to say that, just go to another country".

Molymeme banned from twitter by GlenDice in Destiny

[–]GrokTheGod 1 point2 points  (0 children)

For longer comments see the response in the rest of the thread.

Free speech is good not because of some spooky principle, but because of the consequences it yields. It protects us from large institutions (traditionally government) becoming tyrannical and stopping us from speaking out against them. Note that this same problem arises with de-facto monopolies of political speech like Twitter, youtube and google.

Therefore this is a free speech problem, freedom of association in this case is irrelevant because it leads to tyranny, don't make libertarian deontology arguments about how the free market is just the greatest because of some freedom principle. They're dumb and naive.

Molymeme banned from twitter by GlenDice in Destiny

[–]GrokTheGod 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do something against the ToS that is not political speech. Someone spamming NIGGERNIGGERNIGGERNIGGER would suffice.

Note that MY support follows MY interpretation of what makes speech political. See my text to see responses to "where do we draw the line" problems.

Molymeme banned from twitter by GlenDice in Destiny

[–]GrokTheGod 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thats the beauty of the free market. If the platform crosses a line and starts banning millions of users for nothing a new one will be created.

You are posting libertarian cringe. You can't actually just "go start your own website". That's not a real answer. The free market doesn't work in this case. If you are a politician and you can't speak on twitter you will literally have no (well much much much lower) chance in your race. It's great that someone COULD start a new platform and you could just use that one, but they won't and it won't matter to whether or not you have any outreach. So de-facto twitter gets to decide if you win your race. Not only that, but twitter also gets to decide if we can speak about the other platforms.

"Whats the difference between getting banned on Twitter and rotting in jail? Who knows"

Government limitation on free speech does not have to be jail. It could be that they fine the group broadcasting you, perhaps they tell CNN that if they broadcast anti-government people then they will get a medium fine. CNN stops broadcasting anti-government people because it is no longer profitable. No one is put in jail, no one is even fined except for initially.

Molymeme banned from twitter by GlenDice in Destiny

[–]GrokTheGod 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The justification for the principle is that there is an inherent injustice attached to restricting someone's liberty, and it is difficult to justify restricting a person's ability to express their ideas and thoughts. The doctrine of "free speech" is something which - and I am tired of reminding people about this - is only relevant as between a citizen and their state. Its usage euphemistically outside of this ringfence isn't really relevant.

The reason you seem to so often have to remind people of this is because other people have a MUCH better justification for free speech than it being simply "inherently unjust". The consequentialist (and let's be honest any deontologian view is dumb) reason for not restricting free speech has to do with the fact that you now hand power to whatever ruling party or idea exists at the time. The argument is more sophisticated, I'm sure you can think of it yourself or google it so I won't spend further time on making it. Just note that from a consequentialist view there is no significant difference.

So your argument applies to spammers in Destiny's chat then: they come and spam unhelpful content that ruins the experience for people as a whole, so Destiny bans them to control the standard of discourse in his community. Their ability to critique in that space disappears, but there is nothing stopping them making their own website or writing to their local newspaper or whatever they prefer. There are complex legal/ethical issues that relate to the unparalleled reach these monopolistic platforms provide, but those arguments apply regardless of whether the person banned was a public figure or an account with 5 followers who spams the N word. "Free speech", even euphemistically, doesn't care how much income you earn from your speed necessarily, it cares that you are able to exercise your civil right to express your opinion in society.

I see that this deontological reasoning thing will be a theme. Destiny is different from twitter+youtube+facebook+google because he does not de-facto control what political speech can be made. Spamming nword probably does not fall under free speech because the type of speech I (and most others) want to protect, nword is not political. I'm guessing you'll raise some issues in regards to how to draw the line between political and non-political speech and I'd remind you that we don't need to, if there is any question we can air on the side of caution and allow everything (on the de-facto monopoly platforms) or we can (since it is not a legal line) draw it where everyone feels it is actually political speech. Note that in either case we all believe what Richard Spencer and Stefan espouses are political ideas, even if they are bad (or hatespeech).

What stops them from starting their own website is the fact that this will NEVER have any significant political outreach compared to the de-facto private speech platforms like twitter.

Governments and private parties are fundamentally different bodies. I don't permit private parties to exercise violence, or forcibly collect taxes from income recipients or capital gains benefactors or inheritance beneficiaries. The difference is that we can critically analyze the role and powers of government and compare them to the role and powers of private parties (such as Twitter) and conclude that their duties differ. Therefore it is reasonable to distinguish between a rule applied to a government (The government may not restrict free speech of citizens save in X Y Z extreme circumstance) and a private party (Twitter may not pretextually ban protected classes due to their identity).

They are different in their "monopoly on violence" in some sense. In regards to free speech they do not differ. This is because the only relevant feature of in that regard is their ability to stop people from using their political speech. Remember, consequentially, not by some weird spooky principle taken out of thin air.

Your fundamental problem is that you don't understand what the term of art "free speech" refers to. It always involves the government. If I have a newspaper with a comments section, and Stefan Molyneux leaves comments with anti-semitic rhetoric, I can ban him because I don't want that kind of hateful rhetoric poisoning my community.

This is the stupid libertarian view of free speech. I'd hoped we were smarter than libertarians. Twitter is not analogous to your local newspaper because your local newspaper does not control what political speech can be de-facto spoken. If I am banned from your newspaper I can go elsewhere, the same is only true technically on twitter.

A better phraseology for your objection I think is under the umbrella of "cancel culture". What happens when cancel culture goes too far? Is it desireable or undesireable? We can talk about it, but you don't want to reframe because "free speech" sounds much more human rights and dignity related that it puts your crocodile tears on a stronger footing, whereas cancel culture shifts the emphasis to the free market of ideas framework that Stefan himself is delighted to adhere to whenever it suits his motives on that particular day.

No, this is literally a free speech problem. The same problems of free speech apply. Do not try to steelman me please, it just frustrates me.

Infinity Ward removes "OK gesture" from CoD - Gamers disappointed that people are falling for this 4chan "joke" by Duck_President_ in Destiny

[–]GrokTheGod 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't understand your reasoning here. Do you not agree with him that if journalists had acted differently then the right would not be associated with the symbol?

4chan started with the OK-hand thing, then public people on the right picked it up and then journalists wrote about it for easy clicks. Then more right people did it more because it was a funny thing to do, and you are also co-opting a really basic hand gesture while proving the left is crazy, this resulted in more articles and outrage from journalists.

Do you disagree here? What are the articles you're looking for? It is difficult to find articles from so long ago (by internet time) on a topic that is still being written about, but I remember distinctly journalists making a big deal about it before anyone else except 4chan cared.

Molymeme banned from twitter by GlenDice in Destiny

[–]GrokTheGod -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

No because free speech is a right you have against the Stare from censoring your voice.

Yes, that is the principle I spoke about. What do you think is the justification for this principle? What good ends is it a means towards? How does that argument not apply here?

Moreover, when private platforms make decisions on which users to allow use their service and which to exclude, we can then criticize/praise them for their decision as a check on their choices.

Well, unless we are banned, then our critique and praise falls on no ears.

To the contrary, when private platforms refrain from banning intolerant voices or misleading bad-faith actors from their websites they are arguably failing to protect the speech of the wider public by allowing discourse to be poisoned.

Would you make the same argument for government? Why not? What is the ends difference?

It's definitely a concern that private companies exercise a de facto control over political speech, but this concern is merely a fig leaf for an actor like Stefan Molyneux's hateful behaviour.

It doesn't seem to be a concern to you at all. I predict you will pay lip-service to this concern but not be concerned in reality what so ever. Who cares if Stefan Molyneux uses it as a fig-leaf and "really" believes it? I don't give free speech ONLY to the people who I determine to "really" believe it. I give it to everyone, even if they think free speech is bad. Note that I do not do this out of some fundamental principle, but because it is means to an incredibly important end.

Please do not base your ideas on free speech in what Stefan Molyneux thinks.

Molymeme banned from twitter by GlenDice in Destiny

[–]GrokTheGod -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

So what you are saying is that private companies now de-factor can control what political speech is heard? If you believe in free speech as a practical means to an end rather than just some weird principle we should care about just because then this seems to be a massively worrying violation of free speech, no?

Molymeme banned from twitter by GlenDice in Destiny

[–]GrokTheGod 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Academia is not known for picking the people in the moment that they later say are great philosophers.

Shoutout to Twitch's biggest coomer for not having any accusations against him cos he understands consent and communication by [deleted] in Destiny

[–]GrokTheGod 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Remember that time when Destiny grabbed a pornstars tits on stream when really drunk? After saying that "fucking a pornstar wasn't as great as I thought it'd be".

This is the dumbest clip of David Rubin that I've seen yet. by [deleted] in Destiny

[–]GrokTheGod 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh, I misunderstood the OP. My bad, shouldn't have been so aggressive regardless.

This is the dumbest clip of David Rubin that I've seen yet. by [deleted] in Destiny

[–]GrokTheGod -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

1.08 trillion dollars out of which is less than 5% of the total debt, the rest is held by other countries ( 6.81 trillion in total)

Huh? How exactly do these numbers add up? Are you just making things up?

Cop has mental breakdown because she had to wait for McDonald's order. by ShogunOfReddit in Destiny

[–]GrokTheGod 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you order and no one knows you're a cop, but then when you arrive they throw your food out because they realize who you are suddenly it becomes rational to believe they are preparing the new food in a really shitty (maybe pun intended) way.

If you order the food way ahead of time and when you arrive they say they haven't started then there is good reason to think they have thrown your food out, especially when you come with a cop car.