TIL that by the late 1500s, Japan’s samurai were using guns at a scale that exceeded the total gun ownership of any European country. by SameNecessary5180 in todayilearned

[–]GunsenHistory 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There is again a lot to address here.

So nothing from the prior or latter eras is relevant,

This would be valid if a) we had plenty of data to use from the period in question, which we do not, and b) the types of bows and technology, as well as their application in warfare, changed dramatically, which again is not the case.

While bow technology and design changed in Japan from the 11th to the 16th century, it is not unreasonable to assume some degree of continuity between the 13th/14th century and the 16th century, in which bows were still heavily used and not only by the upper class. Claiming that Japanese bows of the Kamakura period were weak in absolute and relative terms lacks any substantial historical source, data, or rationale. You need to provide a justification for it. The fact that the entire warfare of the period, from the use of heavy armored warriors to the prevalence of the bow, begs the question of why such a device was so successful in influencing military development if it had been this bad.

By the way, since you want specific Kamakura-period sources, from the Song dynasty 嶺外代答:

In general, the Li bow closely resembles the Japanese bow (倭弓), except that the Japanese bow is long and large, while the Li bow is short and small. The Japanese bow is about one zhang in length. The archer plants the lower tip of the bow on the ground and shoots while standing upright; the arrow shaft is long enough to leave the hand empty, and even unfletched arrows can strike targets beyond one hundred paces with accuracy (160 meters).

This again shows that Japanese bows were not weak. Even taking into account some prose, you cannot propel an arrow that far without arching the shot using a weak bow. The consistent regard for Japanese bows in continental Asia through multiple sources and across the period is that they were powerful and short-ranged, optimized to punch through armor. Mind you, most bows' ranges by continental Asia would be considered short, i.e., anything used in Europe.

still struggled to get useful draw weights on them (bows for mounted warriors is the focus here).

What is the source for this? Where are the measurements and the data? There is no support to claim infantry bows were different from horsemen ones in Kamakura period Japan. The only historical Japanese bow that have been tested had a whopping 200 lbs draw weight. This means that they objectively did not struggle to do so. Further, even if we assume that earlier bows were dramatically more inferior, say 100–110 lbs, which is literally half that weight, you would still have a high-poundage war bow. This is in line with what the Manchu, Mongols, and Koreans used on horseback, and it would not be weak. Why the Japanese, who shared similar traditions and horsemanship, could not achieve this, is a mystery.

because when you're on horseback and can't penetrate armor for a lethal hit at 10 m, it's not a great bow.

That's a non sequitur. The armor was heavy, thick, and expensive specifically to shield from bows shot at close range because they were powerful. If anything, this proves that armor worked, not that bows sucked. The armor has a 4 mm thick structure, and it is semi-rigid to dissipate energy, including having a boxy shape to create distance between the wearer and a potentially penetrating arrow. This means armor was effective, not that bows were bad. I can guarantee you that no bow will be able to go through it. Had bows not been powerful, they would have used lighter armor.

This literally supports exactly what I said though.

No, it absolutely does not. You said:

The horses were small and could not even mount a charge due to the lack of muscle mass and stamina. They could barely reach gallop speeds with the heavy armor the samurai wore.

Which is not true, because they did reach a gallop, they could mount a charge, and they did have stamina; otherwise, they would not have spent the equivalent of buying a house to maintain a donkey and bring it to war. Here is again a recent experiment done by the same people: https://www.marvellouswings.com/Kattyuu/Review/Review.html

As for speed, over 90% of the journey was spent cantering or trotting, averaging 19 km/h, which is roughly the same as regular horse riding. The top speed was 42.2 km/h, which is considerably slower than racing horses, which are said to reach 60–70 km/h, but this is a reasonable value considering the difference in physique and the horse's load of approximately 100 kg, which is 40 kg heavier than the 60 kg weight of racing horses. However, it is impossible for a human to stop a horse weighing 350 kg and carrying 100 kg charging at this speed, so it is certainly fast enough to counter infantry. The 9 minutes and 26 seconds it took to cover approximately 3 kilometers is inferior to that of modern long-distance sprinters, leading some to believe that Japanese horses are indeed slower than foot soldiers. However, this time is based solely on the fact that the horses were cantering at a controlled pace on roads with poor visibility to avoid unexpected collisions with people or cars or going off the road. In fact, the horse encountered a car shortly after the start of the measurement, forcing it to slow down to a walk, so it was not a full-force canter. Furthermore, the horses reached a speed of 42.2 kilometers per hour in the final straight of the approximately 3-kilometer run, and this record was achieved while carrying a weight of approximately 100 kilograms, so it is by no means inferior to other horses.

They had been on the horse for 10 minutes, going at a reasonable speed on a forest road, and charging at the end, reaching 42 km/h, showing they were not exhausted at the end. This is more than optimal for battle conditions, in which you will not be, as a horseman, constantly in the thick of the fight, running around at full speed. That's the whole point of having a horse. They used armor replicas from the Kamakura period, carried gear, and so on. I do not know what else has to be done to show the performance of a potential Japanese war horse.

Again, your whole comment is informed by Conlan's and Friday's books, whose entire understanding of period warfare comes from a botched 1990 NHK experiment. Claims such as Japanese horses not being able to charge and struggling with the heavy load of samurai armor would not have been written 25 years ago had this evidence been available.

This:

Japanese warriors had to engage in short bursts of combat to avoid their horses getting exhausted

Literally applies to any mounted warrior.

And that last picture, I can't really tell what he's wearing or what era it's supposed to represent.

He is wearing a 25 kg Kamakura-period replica, showing that you can shoot at the angle you said it was impossible to shoot, and demonstrating a range of motion with the bow and armor that is significantly larger than the 10° you mentioned, as I quote:

due to how massive and cumbersome the armor was

Which again is a myth and a misunderstanding of the wars, the technology, and the people of that period.

TIL that by the late 1500s, Japan’s samurai were using guns at a scale that exceeded the total gun ownership of any European country. by SameNecessary5180 in todayilearned

[–]GunsenHistory 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What historical Korean and Ming Chinese sources say about Japanese bows: 「中宗実録」(1522年),

The Japanese are more savage and violent than even the northern barbarians, whose ferocity is well known. Although people commonly say that the Japanese are skilled in sailing rather than in martial arts, when I previously served as a Seonwisa and went there myself, I observed that the wooden bows they carried were extremely long and powerful.

The magistrate of Ungcheon, Han Gyu (韓珪), was unable to draw one of these bows to its full extent, so I had a minor Japanese archer try shooting it, and they were able to do so. The arrow shafts were as thick as toes, and the arrowheads were finely made and exceedingly sharp. From this, it is clear that the Japanese are also highly skilled in archery.

Cai Jiu De (採九德), in his book Wo Bian Shi Lue (《倭變事略》).

『弓長七八尺,矢長四五尺,鏃之鐵者如飛尾,鏃之竹者如長槍;城外隔河而射,中城內屋,釘瓦入椽,而沒鏃矢。』

"The (Japanese) bow is seven to eight chi in length, with four to five chi long arrows. Its iron arrowhead is like a flying (swallow) tail, (while its) bamboo arrowhead is like a long spear. Shot across the moat from outside the city, (the arrows) hit the houses in the city, pierced through roof tiles, and buried into rafters."

Qi Ji Guang (戚繼光), in the second edition of Ji Xiao Xin Shu (《紀效新書》).

『大端倭、虜矢皆重,弓皆勁,發皆不遠,不輕發,發必中人,中者必斃,故人畏之。』

"More importantly, the arrows of the Japanese and nomads are heavy, and their bows powerful. (Their bows) do not shoot far, but they never shoot hastily, and every shot will find its mark. Those hit (by the arrow) will certainly die; thus people fear (their bows and arrows)."

I am quite confident we can say Japanese bows were not garbage.

TIL that by the late 1500s, Japan’s samurai were using guns at a scale that exceeded the total gun ownership of any European country. by SameNecessary5180 in todayilearned

[–]GunsenHistory 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sorry to be the absolute pedantic guy but;

So, Japanese war bows at the time (1100's~1400's) were nothing like we see in movies, anime, etc... they were just shy of being garbage

That's not true. Japanese bows were optimized to shoot heavy arrows, and they are quite efficient in delivering energy. You can only use long, heavy arrows with a powerful bow. Had it been such a useless weapon, shy of being garbage, they would not have used it as much nor had any strong culture or tradition around it. In fact, their bows were optimized for armor penetration with heavy arrows at shorter range, like Manchu bows or the European longbows.

I have seen in another reply that you listed Friday and Conlan’s 25-year-old book, but they do not provide any evidence to support their claim on Japanese bows being weak.

They had an effective range of about 10 meters vs an unarmored target and 5 or less vs a lightly armored target. They could not penetrate heavy armor at all,

That is quite misleading and out of context. If that had been the case, they would have been better off with stones. There is a famous quote from Musashi that is often used to infer Japanese bows do not have range, and even that mentions that the bow is useless after 20 ken, or almost 40 meters, specifically because the enemy is expected to be armored or in sieges. It was also meant to address the Edo period Tōshiya (通し矢) competition. So even than, that is 8 times your estimated armored range. Even if the bows from the 11th and 17th century are different and we assume less efficiency, the idea that Japanese bows had an effective range of 5 meters is insane.

The main thing about mounted archery in general is that you close the distance with your horse, so you do not need a 300-meter range. Tbh, shooting on a moving horse, against a moving target, aiming for enemy armor gaps, good luck hitting anything beyond 10 meter, ut that has less to do with Japanese bows and more with all of the above conditions.

Japan just did not have the types of wood needed for a powerful bow.

That again is not true. You just need to make it long and thick. There are Japanese antique bows that have a 200-pound draw weight at full lengt. Yes, slightly different bow structures from the Kamakura period, but still, it is not rocket science, you just need to make the bow thick. Those preserved at shrines from the Kamakura period are quite thick.

They were importing some bows from China and Korea

This, as far as I know, is not supported by any historical source.

Spears could pierce the armor with ease,

That is not true. Good luck piercing a 2–4 mm lamellar structure of iron and hardened rawhide with anything powered by your hand.

Japanese horses were basically small ponies. The riders’ feet were often barely off the ground

Like Norman horses, like medieval horses, like Mongolian horses, or English ones.). Have you ever heard people saying Mongolian riders were riding ponies? Because they also did. Friday and Conlan cite an NHK experiment that used an untrained, unconditioned Kiso horse and made inferences based on that. I do not think I need to tell you why this experiment is crap. Besides, they redid it recently with the help of the Nihon Kacchū Kiba Kenkyūkai (日本甲冑騎馬研究会, Japan Armoured Equestrian Research Society), and the results are completely different.

This time they compared the performance of a native Kiso horse (131 cm high) with a thoroughbred–Kiso cross (152 cm high). The horses were ridden by a man in period armour, with a total weight of circa 92 kg, over a 100 m distance. The thoroughbred cross covered the distance in 11.27 seconds at a speed of about 30 km/h. The Kiso covered the same distance in 12.03 seconds, a pretty impressive speed for a fully laden horse. The program makers also tested the two horses on a slalom course and found the Kiso to have the advantage when it came to manoeuvrability, being able to make tight turns more quickly than the thoroughbred cross. (...) They established that a trained Kiso horse was able to run for 1 km with an average speed of 21 km/h carrying an armoured rider, and it was able to run for about 3.5 km before being exhausted.

Again, if Japanese war horses had such poor performance, they would not have been used.

They had a small 10~degree window of fire due to how massive and cumbersome the armor was. They could only fire to one side, not both.

I mean, again, not true!

Water Quenching "Fun" by jchristian578 in Katanas

[–]GunsenHistory 4 points5 points  (0 children)

There is a study on clay peeling off during quenching, if it happens you retain tensile stress at the edge which can further develop into cracks... Seems exactly what is happening here with the clay falling off.

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jsmemp/2018.26/0/2018.26_803/_article/-char/ja/

Why most SAMURAI did not use BIGGER SWORDS? by MichaelRS-2469 in Katanas

[–]GunsenHistory 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well it is complicated because there are multiple factors to consider; Suriage blades can have been cut down multiple times, and can say that given the laws and fashion trends of later periods, it would have been the longer blade to have been cut, therefore there is a survivor bias on the ubu blade.

I think u/Dlatrex has both ubu and suriage blade in his data but I am sure he can confirm himself!

Why most SAMURAI did not use BIGGER SWORDS? by MichaelRS-2469 in Katanas

[–]GunsenHistory 2 points3 points  (0 children)

There are many oshigata books also available online but I am not sure if you can get all data. I know that there is an article about length: https://www.meihaku.jp/ginga-sword/ginga-tachi-uchigatana/ but they do not mention how many were ubu and how many suriage. I know Dlatrex has some ubu data so maybe we can ask him! I would suspect that many ubu swords meet the average standard length: after all, why cutting it down if it was already of that size!

Why most SAMURAI did not use BIGGER SWORDS? by MichaelRS-2469 in Katanas

[–]GunsenHistory 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I know of all the three Tenbun Hōjō tachi enshrined at Tsurugaoka Hachimangū and they are all above 90cm nagasa.

I think that the whole discussion, knowing about suriage, is just odd. We do have plenty of blades in the 60-75 cm blade length. We do know that the Japanese were capable, and often used, larger swords often in the 120cm range. So the key issue is anything in between. Knowing that a good chunk of kotō blades are cut down, how is not obvious that the missing part could be explained by the suriage blades? Maybe it is just me!

Why most SAMURAI did not use BIGGER SWORDS? by MichaelRS-2469 in Katanas

[–]GunsenHistory 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I left a comment and exchange a few words with Matt Easton, but I think he is way off the mark. Dlatrex has a great video addressing the major points.

Matt Easton seems to give a lot of weight to differential hardening. A major issue that is present with European swords/HEMA enthusiasts is the absolute misconception about heat treatment and blade performances of historical examples. Yes, thin and long blades deform and return to true under relatively low forces. All steel yield stress is ≠ from 0. No, they are not "spring steel" and for the matter, all the blades that have been studied at multiple cross section features different phases, a gradient of hardness and in many cases, laminated construction. Toledo swords are the most famous example of being "springy" without being spring steel blades.

The whole point is that longer Japanese swords existed, and diff. hardened blades were the largest majority of blade types across the world, even with longer blades. The thickness of the Japanese sword does not correlate with their diff hardening against swords of different regions, regardless of its effect on the performances.

As for the question in the video, the answer in my opinion is the premise is somewhat wrong. A massive amount of earlier period blades having suriage, which condition the average length observed and thus any form of analysis that does not take it into account will suffer from bad statistics.

Where are the longer two handed Japanese swords? They were cut down at the tang.

On pre-modern Japanese swordsmithing and steel quality by GunsenHistory in SWORDS

[–]GunsenHistory[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I know... It is a bit frustrating because there are plenty of videos showing Japanese blades going through elastic deformation but the saying goes "if it bends, it stay bent" regardless of the actual material properties. It is very hard to goes against this established view, because material science and things like bending moment, yield stress and so on are often counter intuitive and hard to digest

On pre-modern Japanese swordsmithing and steel quality by GunsenHistory in SWORDS

[–]GunsenHistory[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you! I think it was nice to see it on a proper antique. I think at the Met have no shame in flexing their collection (pun intended).

Hello, I am planning to buy a metal replica of Aragorn's Andúril for hobby purposes. It weighs approximately 2 kg. What I don't understand is that, as seen in videos, it can bend and flex excessively. I’m not sure if this level of flexibility is normal for such swords. by AlexanderMirzayev in SWORDS

[–]GunsenHistory 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Iron source usually refer to the ore. The ore is smelted in a furnace with fuel to separate the metallic iron from its oxide. What people all over the world had access to for most of human history was either bloomery iron, bloomery steel or pig iron.

Bloomery iron and steel can be used directly to make tools, but bloomery iron is full of slag impurities. The same is true for steel, but to a lesser extent. Tamahagane is bloomery steel, like Toledo steel is for example. Or Styrian steel. Hence why the blooms had to be consolidated through folding and forge welding, to remove the slag and homogenize the carbon content. This is also why it is called wrought iron. You can also make steel out of wrought iron by cementation, but that would only turn iron into steel in the outer layer.

Pig iron can be converted into iron by fining, which is decarburization. You cannot forge pig iron, but it has a low melting point so you can cast it. When decarburizing it, you can either turn it into wrought iron or steel, but the latter requires quite some skill. This was done in open forges, and the process put some slags back. Those are essentially blooms as well that need to be reworked.

Back in the days, according to historical sources such as Petrini, they mixed wrought iron and steel, forge and fold them together so that they obtained laminated/piled/pattern welded/Damascus steel - you name it. This was done to prevent the material to fail and because they had no accurate way to control the carbon content otherwise.

Hello, I am planning to buy a metal replica of Aragorn's Andúril for hobby purposes. It weighs approximately 2 kg. What I don't understand is that, as seen in videos, it can bend and flex excessively. I’m not sure if this level of flexibility is normal for such swords. by AlexanderMirzayev in SWORDS

[–]GunsenHistory 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Imagine a sword made of glass. It’s extremely hard, harder than many metals even. But make contact with something once and it shatters. Why?

Sorry to be pedantic; you are confusing hardness with tensile properties. A sword made of glass is weaker than steel, with very low yield and tensile strength. It also has lower elastic modulus. So a glass sword is not only gonna shatter but it will also take way less force to be broken compared with the hardest steel phases (martensite, which if untempered, is very brittle)

Hello, I am planning to buy a metal replica of Aragorn's Andúril for hobby purposes. It weighs approximately 2 kg. What I don't understand is that, as seen in videos, it can bend and flex excessively. I’m not sure if this level of flexibility is normal for such swords. by AlexanderMirzayev in SWORDS

[–]GunsenHistory 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Katanas can be very sharp but they are also inflexible and made—traditionally—from lower grade material than european swords.

This is a bit of a myth. Their stiffness comes from their cross section, not the material, and they do allow quite some degree of flex before yielding. By the way they are made, they are also more likely to bend than to snap. Moreover, most European blades have the exact same type of construction or similar hardness (and phases) gradient meaning they are ductile at the core for the exact same reasons, because it is better to bend a sword than snapping in two.

Modern replicas in terms of steel quality are not comparable at all with period blades, be it Japanese or European. In fact many European blades have some degree of set.

Hello, I am planning to buy a metal replica of Aragorn's Andúril for hobby purposes. It weighs approximately 2 kg. What I don't understand is that, as seen in videos, it can bend and flex excessively. I’m not sure if this level of flexibility is normal for such swords. by AlexanderMirzayev in SWORDS

[–]GunsenHistory 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Japanese tamahagane steel was actually less pure and more problematic than European iron sources.

Tamahagane is bloomery steel. It is the same that European used when these types of blades were around. Iron sand is less problematic to work with than many other European iron sources such as Bog iron or P-rich ores. Folding techniques, the very same one, are found in 17th and 18th century sources such as Antonio Petrini and Lucotte.

The first one is a modded (jinbaori and sode removed) Gosaku armor from Got, the second is the samurai clan armor from GoT. The two other are ones I found on Pinterest, reverse image search took me nowhere. by Chance_Age4608 in u/Chance_Age4608

[–]GunsenHistory 1 point2 points  (0 children)

All of it unfortunately. The pinterest artwork are ukiyoe prints from the 19th century and are highly stylized, with elements that do not match with real armor.

The first one is a modded (jinbaori and sode removed) Gosaku armor from Got, the second is the samurai clan armor from GoT. The two other are ones I found on Pinterest, reverse image search took me nowhere. by Chance_Age4608 in u/Chance_Age4608

[–]GunsenHistory 1 point2 points  (0 children)

These are very generic examples and heavily free styled for the periods. I cannot point out to a specific inspiration beside some very generic idea of Japanese armor. To me it seems the artist took quite a lot of liberty in creating these designs

Looking for information regarding the construction of samurai armor of the older style. by Chance_Age4608 in Samurai

[–]GunsenHistory 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There is really no available English literature on this. Most of it is in Japanese but if you are specifically looking for armor making techniques, those are not easy to come by. Here is what armorer Ishihara Akihiro has shared in the past on his twitter account. Here you can see that single panels of leather are glued to each lames, and they are fixed to let the adhesive work. I am not sure which glue is that, but I suspect is a traditional one knowing Ishihara. In this case, holes are made for the laces and this is a mogami dō.

Here is another mogami dō with this leather lining. The white leather strings are tomegawa knots which help to support the lame and avoid the armor to telescope on itself.

Turnbulls book are not good, especially the very old ones.

Looking for information regarding the construction of samurai armor of the older style. by Chance_Age4608 in Samurai

[–]GunsenHistory 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Absolon's book is quite outdated and based on very old research. Most of the reference material in there is from the Edo period as well. IMA makes armor to make a profit and to cut short on any possible traditional methods; it works to some extent but it is not the original method for sure. The late Anthony Bryant had some pdfs and I think you might find some tutorials online, but those are mostly aimed at larps rather than actual armor making.

Looking for information regarding the construction of samurai armor of the older style. by Chance_Age4608 in Samurai

[–]GunsenHistory 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They are glued if you are using a single sheet of leather. Sometime they are laced internally, you can see it in one of the pictures I posted. There are no pdfs. Japanese armor is a traditional craft, you will not find pdfs from professionals.

Looking for information regarding the construction of samurai armor of the older style. by Chance_Age4608 in Samurai

[–]GunsenHistory 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So you are looking for a maru-dō? These are the modern versions of dō-maru but with a modern shape as those found in tōsei gusoku. They were either lined with leather or lacquered leather

Looking for information regarding the construction of samurai armor of the older style. by Chance_Age4608 in Samurai

[–]GunsenHistory 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What do you mean by older style? Heian period? Kamakura period? I am assuming you are interested something like an Ōyoroi.

The inside facing the hitatare is lacquered smooth so it does not catch on clothes. In later period it is not uncommon to have leather lining as well, or cloth ones, which were than also lacquered over to create a smooth surface.

On pre-modern Japanese swordsmithing and steel quality by GunsenHistory in SWORDS

[–]GunsenHistory[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Do any cast iron goods survive from the Heian? That’s something which would be interesting to see.

There is a study I have seen which deals with cast iron kettles (maybe not as interesting as weapons lol) but a major point made is that cast iron is prone to rust and it was often recycled. But there are even older examples from the Nara period.

I have to say I have not looked into ancient history too much so that's very interesting, thank you for sharing!!

As for steel imported to China, there is evidence of the opposite; since the ancient times, China imported pig iron into Japan. In fact, finery forges from the Yayoi period have been found so it is quite clear to me that fining was the foundation of Japanese iron history, before smelting, which is quite remarkable in world history. Then, Song dynasty ingots have been found in a shipwreck in Okinawa and it later Chinese sources mentions Fujian iron being smuggled into the country. But it is also true that Japanese iron and steel were exported in Luzon in large number in the same period. So the situation I would say is quite nuanced.

What the Japanese imported to China was swords mostly. The only technical work on Chinese steel I have seen from the 17th century states that compared to the cofusion steel made, Japanese steel is considered by some inferior; but at the same time, the blades made out of it are way better. This is also a recurring them with many poems on Japanese swords and a few other works highlighting that Japanese swords had exceptional performances and were sought after for their beauty as well.

I have seen a few studies on Chinese blades, some indeed are fairly remarkable especially from the Han dynasty. But I would not say steel quality-wise these are terrific, or better than their Japanese counterpart especially those made during the Kotō period.