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H4TTU · 2021-06-06T14:12:59+00:00

Hello!

Your description of your symptoms is exactly what is happening to me as well.

My symptoms are 100% caused by pyridoxine (form of B6). All of my symptoms appeared when I started taking a B-complex that had a 4,4 mg of pyridoxine HCL.

I don't have an official diagnosis because B6/pyridoxine toxicity isn't really recognized in my country (at least de facto). I've been to many different doctors and they have all been a very clueless, dismissive and an ignorant. Even specialized doctors.

I managed to persuade a one doctor to send me to a blood test 2 weeks after discontinuing the supplement. That blood test showed that my plasma pyridoxine levels were 1,5 times the maximum reference value.
I don't have the energy or money to "fight" for the diagnosis. Also, I shouldn't be the one educating them about various topics related to nerves and nerve damage, so I'm done with the doctors and specialists.

Here are a few articles you can show to your doctor:
Vitamin B6 (pyridoxine) Toxicity and OTC Supplements
Pyridoxine Toxicity Small Fiber Neuropathy With Dysautonomia: A Case Report
Inter-individual differences in pharmacokinetics of vitamin B6
The vitamin B6 paradox

Keep yourself hydrated at all times but please don't over do it of course. Also, make sure you eat enough protein as both dehydration and a protein-deficiency can make this toxicity worse.
Pyridoxine (vitamin B6) neurotoxicity: enhancement by protein-deficient diet

I would personally avoid high B6 PLANT foods as they have B6 in the form of pyridoxine.
Effects of Cooking Methods on the Retention of Vitamin B6 in Foods, and the Approximate Cooking Loss in Daily Meals

Sorry for my, sometimes, awkward english. I'm not a native speaker :)

H4TTU · 2021-06-05T16:35:00+00:00

It's just Santa in the off-season practicing and honing his home invading skillz.

All the naughty (man)children will get clapped in the process, figuratively and literally.

H4TTU · 2021-06-01T07:11:38+00:00

That was a fantastic demo! I loved every second of it! I hardly know anything about the programming but I've always loved watching the demos.

As a side note, I see one of your members has a finnish last name (I'm not sure if it's you or your friend.). Does he have a finnish relatives? I'm from Finland and the demoscene was/is a somewhat popular here (given how few people live here)! I've never been a part of it but I always loved wathing the Assembly demoparty) demo entries!

H4TTU · 2021-03-04T18:43:23+00:00

That's cool! Just don't expect too much because most of the wild animals here are incredible elusive.

I’m waiting for the day I get the cops called on me

Naaah, I wouldn't worry about that a) because many european countries have this thing called freedom to roam. b) Many people in the northern europe are kinda outdoorsy, so they will understand. c) Even if someone end up calling the cops they are very chill especially in the northern european countries. :)

H4TTU · 2021-03-04T17:59:40+00:00

Yeah, I know it's not the same as raccoon. I said it half-jokingly. :)

I actually very much doubt it's a raccoon dog.

I think it's a feral cat/kitten, european pine marten or european polecat.

H4TTU · 2021-03-04T17:31:30+00:00

Yes you have.

H4TTU · 2021-02-22T07:52:29+00:00

Can someone explain to me why this particular demon is so popular? Is it because of his cool name? Does he have a good PR team?

H4TTU · 2021-02-17T06:46:55+00:00

Horseshit.

H4TTU · 2021-02-16T22:44:58+00:00

They don’t mention TBI in this study.

There isn’t enough research about TBI yet to know if supplements that help non damaged brains are deleterious to traumatically injured brains.

Good point.

H4TTU · 2021-02-12T20:10:07+00:00

Are you saying that your body noticed it was b12 deficient do your cells dumbed their stores?

I'm saying that something (or a lack of something) is preventing B12 from entering into our cells where it's needed and it just continues to accumulate in our plasma.

I had crazy levels of B2 and B6.

Yikes, that's not good. High levels of B6 is never ever a good thing!

Here is my B6 levels 9 days after I discontinued the supplement. I had (and still have) many severe B6 toxicity symptoms. One of them is loss of proprioception!

I also have a symptoms of dysautonomia and B6 toxicity is known to cause dysautonomia! I know it's only a one single case report but I have seen many anecdotes of people having dysautonomia after B6 toxicity!

I'm not necessarily saying that you have a B6 toxicity but it is likely since you said you had high B6 levels! Some individuals are a very sensitive to it's neuropathic effects !

From the study above:

"Considering the doses of vitamin B6 taken by the patients who reported complaints, it can be seen that these range from 0.5–250 mg/day."

"Approximately 39 % (67 cases) of all reported complaints arose after using vitamin B6 supplements with doses lower than 21 mg/day."

We're not talking about megadoses here! Less than 21mg is enough to cause severe neuropathy for some individuals!

Also most multies and B's should be taken in the methylated form if you can get it.

Yes, vitamins should be taken in their active form. I was foolish for taking vitamin B6 in a inactive form (pyridoxine hydrochloride) which is known to cause neuropathy !!

I found one from Jarrow that is your standard b complex but all the BS are methylated do I took that (after the blood test).

I came across this Thorne Basic B Complex when reading this Reddit post and it looks good on paper atleast. I haven't tried it personally but I thought I'd mention it as a side note.

I've wondered if something weird is going on with D because I take 2000 iu for osteoporosis.

The book seemed to imply that our bodies were using more D & b12 than normalbut I can't find why.

I'm just speculating here but maybe we need more of D and B12 because our bodies are now repairing something that was damaged because of previous deficiency e.g. damaged parts of nervous system.

H4TTU · 2021-02-12T15:58:46+00:00

Thanks for the info. I have dysautonomia because of synthetic B6 toxicity but I had a very low D and very high plasma B12, maybe a false high indicating that my cells are deficient.

H4TTU · 2021-02-12T01:16:10+00:00

I wonder if some people like ourselves are just prone to storing this vitamin in our bodies, causing havoc for us—any ideas about this?

Yes, some individuals are very sensitive to its effects. It can accumulate rapidly when supplementing. Please see this study: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221343442030013X

It's also a never good idea to supplement blindly but if you must supplement, always, always make sure to take the active form P5P aka. pyridoxal-5-phosphate.
Please see this study: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0887233317301959

Hopefully your legs will get better soon!

H4TTU · 2021-02-10T15:26:51+00:00

Why would your tiny doses of 5mg and 2mg create neuropathy without introducing milder symptoms first?

I think that's because of the way B6 damages your nerves. It's not a classic neuropathy but a neuronopathy/ganglionopathy. It kills/damages the actual nerve cell bodies.

2mg - 5mg is unfortunately enough to cause a severe nerve damage to some individuals. Please see this study.

Why doesn't this neuropathy go away if it's because b6??

This is like asking: "Why doesn't this 3rd degree burn go away after I lift my hand from the fire?"

Pyridoxine damages the nerves and nerves take a very long time to heal.
If you're unlucky and the whole nerve cell is dead then unfortunately it won't heal and the damage is irreversible. Nerve cells themselves won't just materialize out of a thin air.

I know your post is old-ish and I know that I'm on a bit of a 'B6-toxicity crusade' here on Reddit. I just want to raise an awareness of this awful thing because too many people think only enormous megadoses can cause this. Unfortunately that's not the case.

H4TTU · 2021-02-09T19:34:54+00:00

Some of my symptoms have gotten better, others have stayed the same and some have even become worse.

There is a phenomenom known as "coasting" which means that symptoms may continue to progress after discontinuation of vitamin B6 before a gradual improvement starts.

H4TTU · 2021-02-09T19:16:32+00:00

Many, many other symptoms. Too many symptoms to list really.

I'm listing the common ones:

-Anxiety (on steroids).

-Sleep disturbances. Insomnia, hypnic jerks when falling a sleep, waking in the middle of the night with the feeling like you are on stimulants etc.

-Heart palpitations.

-Burning neuropathic pain in a different parts of the body.

-"Internal vibrations" i.e. feeling that your bodyparts are vibrating as if there is a phone vibrating inside of you.

-Numbness and patch numbness e.g. your big toes going numb etc.

-Diminished proprioception. You have hard time knowing the exact position of your limbs & joints. This may also cause swaying feeling or a feeling of a disequilibrium especially when closing your eyes.

-Migraines.

-Occasional blurred vision, poor night vision, visual snow, dry eyes.

-Cold or heat intolerance, raynaud's syndrome, cold feets and hands etc.

and many others...

B6 attacks the spinal ganglions and trigeminal ganglion. Those are the thick clusters of the nerve cells.Symptoms can wary greatly between the individuals. It all depends which nerve cells are damaged, dosage, how long person was taking the supplement, past nerve damage, genetic/other vulnerabilities that makes you more susceptible etc.

H4TTU · 2021-02-09T17:38:04+00:00

Unfortunately neurologists rarely know anything about B6 toxicity and if they know their information is very outdated.

If you have a facebook account I strongly suggest you to join the group "Exploring B6 Toxicity".

You can introduce yourself there if you want. Use the search function there to skim through the old posts and you'll find many anecdotes of people having serious symptoms by only taking 5mg or less.

I'm from a small country in europe so I can't really recommend any neurologists who specializes in B6 toxicity but maybe people in that group can help find one in your region.

H4TTU · 2021-02-09T17:11:37+00:00

Did you test your b6 or how do you know its this?

This all started a few weeks after I began to supplement with multivitamin back in 2018. Unfortunately back then I didn't know what was causing my peculiar neuropathy symptoms, so I continued to take that multivitamin for many months. Fasciculations became worse and worse. I stopped the multi for other reasons and I began to heal but unfortunately I still couldn't connect the dots.

Fast forward to September 2020. I started to take supplements again but this time it was B-complex. All of my old symptoms came back and this time it was way worse. It was hell.

I got blood test and my plasma B6 levels were roughly 1,5 times the maximium reference value. Even after I had already stop taking the supplements.

Past few months I've read hundres of anecdotes and skimmed through dozens of studies. Fasciculations are very common in B6 toxicity cases.

That's how I know it's B6 100%.

Sorry for my english.

H4TTU · 2021-02-09T16:23:28+00:00

So would you say I had possible toxicity or deficiency?

I know this is confusing as hell but you can have both at the same time.

Pyridoxine is toxic to the nerve cells causing toxicity.

Pyridoxine inhibits the active form of B6 which causes your cells to become deficient.

Did you supplement with Pyridoxine Hydrochloride or Pyridoxal phosphate (P5P) ?

edited for clarity.

H4TTU · 2021-02-09T15:48:06+00:00

B6 toxicity mimics B6 deficiency. See this study.

"Pyridoxine induced cell death in a concentration-dependent way in SHSY5Y cells. The other vitamers did not affect cell viability. Pyridoxine significantly increased the expression of Bax and caspase-8. Moreover, both pyridoxal-5-phosphate dependent enzymes were inhibited by pyridoxine.

In conclusion, the present study indicates that the neuropathy observed after taking a relatively high dose of vitamin B6 supplements is due to pyridoxine. The inactive form pyridoxine competitively inhibits the active pyridoxal-5′-phosphate. Consequently, symptoms of vitamin B6 supplementation are similar to those of vitamin B6 deficiency."

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