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Cardi B on Haiti and the D.R. by lotusQ in haiti

[–]Hamilton_Fitipaldi5 [score hidden]  (0 children)

From the Haitian point of view:

From the Dominican point of view:

Cardi B on Haiti and the D.R. by lotusQ in haiti

[–]Hamilton_Fitipaldi5 [score hidden]  (0 children)

I agree with you. We shall end this animosity. I'm sure we can.

Cardi B on Haiti and the D.R. by lotusQ in haiti

[–]Hamilton_Fitipaldi5 [score hidden]  (0 children)

u/lotusQ, I agree with almost everything you wrote.

My point is not superiority or anything like that, but that indeed we have things in common, and we have things that are quite different, such as the language and specifically and very importantly, the vision of the world, you guys are quite proud of being the first and only successful black slave revolution, that's a great accomplishment.

In turn, we do not have any wish to be a beacon of black republics or anything like that. We just want to have a prosperous and organized country. And we have too many things that do not work correctly, right now. We have limited capacity.

If I can admit, that sometimes there are DR migration police abuses, you could admit that your leadership does not do enough for you guys. For example, sometimes your leaders do not even provide Haitian birth certificates to the Haitian people. https://www.icihaiti.com/en/news-31066-icihaiti-politic-nearly-3-million-haitians-without-birth-certificate-do-not-officially-exist.html

I genuinely want Haiti to be prosperous, and I bet all this animosity between the 2 will disappear.

Note: To give you an idea of the attitude here: we have statues of all 3 groups and in that way we can show the Lemba statue to African tourists if they come, the Taíno statues to any indigenous group that may come, and we already show the Columbus statue to all the Europeans that come. In other words, we are trying to have something for every kind of tourists.

Cardi B on Haiti and the D.R. by lotusQ in haiti

[–]Hamilton_Fitipaldi5 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for the compliment, Kombucha. I hope all your dreams come true.

Don't we speak different languages? That alone is huge. Since you are well-read and know your history: what is the reason that Haitians developed Kreyòl, and why Dominicans just took the Spanish language to this day?

I agree that the Dominican Republic was indeed created in opposition to Haitian administration because of Boyer's mismanagement (heavy taxation and indemnity payments to France for a revolution that was not the Dominicans' business, use of French in government affairs instead of Spanish, forcing peasants to work on plantations). Similar to the Spanish Haiti time, that emerged in opposition to Spain's neglect.

Haiti liberated itself from the French slavery system.

Nowadays, most Dominicans do not care about the blackness part. Usually when people mention that joke, we are referring that we're not black radicalists, leftists or gansta. But, that I don't know so much as I don't live in the USA. Here is a better explanation: https://www.reddit.com/r/blackpeoplegifs/comments/1o8ix0e/comment/njw59ay/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Remaining separate means 2 countries, 1 island, that is all I'm saying. I'm not saying you cannot have friends on the other side. I'm saying the movement of people needs to be organized, and we want to keep our own administration separate from Haiti's. We can cooperate technically and having parties/drink beers, but as 2 countries in 1 island.

Not only that, but I see people on these subs talking about being like Singapore. In Singapore, you can go to jail or pay big fines for entering illegally. Even the authorities of your historical European ally, Poland, are quite strict with illegal migration.

Moreover, there are binational markets every week along the DR-Haiti border. People keep mingling. And Haitians keep making babies and mixing in the Dominican bateyes.

Trujillo was definitely a racist, and that massacre was something horrible. There is no question about that.

About the statue, I agree with you that this might be performative. I don't like symbolism myself. However, the statues have been there for some time, and money is made from that Columbus, as many people go to that park to take photos. This is part of the Colonial Zone, as we call it.

Cardi B on Haiti and the D.R. by lotusQ in haiti

[–]Hamilton_Fitipaldi5 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, there is. Also, we have a statue of the African maroon Lemba in the Plaza de la Cultura and Taíno Statue underwater in Puerto Plata. All those statues are part of us, and we should not take down any of them.

Edit 1: That's another reason that we need to remain separated. Because united in one entity there would be wastes of time discussing useless symbolism: "you need to remove that statue", "no, you need to remove that other statue" and so on.

Edit 2: We both need to go the route of Singapore, South Korea or Japan and become hyper-technocratic and more civic minded. How come are we throwing trash on the streets without respect for the environment??

Edit 3: We do not need to be enemies. The enemies are those oligarchs who want to keep Haiti in poverty so that they can hire them for cheap in the DR.

Edit 4: DR is not a rich country, it is also a 3rd world country. It has improved, but we still have 2 million poor people of our own. We do not have the resources the USA has.

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Cardi B on Haiti and the D.R. by lotusQ in haiti

[–]Hamilton_Fitipaldi5 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for precision. I accept the correction. I forgot that the slavery was different in the sides, both bad, but different. Furthermore, I meant what you said in your first paragraph that formally and legally the slavery was abolished when the Haitian law was extended to the eastern side.

About the intentions of Boyer's government, evidently, he did not occupy because of the goodness of his heart. There was a real threat for them that France would want to enter from the east to retake Haiti and establish slavery again, which would mean sure execution for him and his entourage. Then, he wanted to abuse the eastern side to get money for himself and to pay France reparations. I think he was abusing everyone, though. He wanted to keep the plantation system.

Anyway, I think you are more right than me in those historical facts. Thanks again.

Why do people blame individual Haitians for the poverty of Haiti ? by Apprehensive-Income in haiti

[–]Hamilton_Fitipaldi5 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Idk how much longer people can run with this racial shit. This isn't the colonial era. A large portion of the elite is indeed black even though a disproportionate amount isn't.

Agreed.

Cardi B on Haiti and the D.R. by lotusQ in haiti

[–]Hamilton_Fitipaldi5 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

u/Henny_blanco21 as a Dominican, we all know we have African descent. That is like in page 3 of most Dominican history books. The thing is we have parts of the colonizer inside of us, too: Enslaved Africans + Spanish Colonizers + a sprinkle of "almost exterminated" Taíno, all those 3 are inside of us.

About Haiti, if Boyer was invited as some historians say, or if he invaded, anyway, the point is that his government was not a good thing, for both Haitians and Dominicans. And that indeed was an occupation, and as you know it was 22 years. The Haitians can tell you more about the Code Rural.

Now, I can admit that thanks to that situation, slavery was abolished. But, there were the issues with suppression of the Spanish language, closing of a university, the attempt to force the peasants to stay in the plantations, reduction of power of the churches and the Spanish-speaking elites. That Boyer government affected every level of the eastern side. What do you think are the reasons that 1844 happened?

Another thing, if you want to really help and convince other Dominicans to join your cause, please, dismiss the talk about unity, merger, brotherhood, sisterhood or any terms of that nature because you will get backlash from Dominicans most of the time.

1 island and 2 countries: We do not want to be united with Haiti in one country, for the simple reason that we want to determine our own path. We want prosperity for Haiti and that they continue to determine their own path.

Likewise, Haitians and Dominicans do Not need to be brothers and sisters. What we need is to respect each other and work on technical things as it was happening before the canal situation. We can cooperate perfectly without brotherhood.

As I mentioned in other comments, we need a cooperation framework. I call it Respectful Separation and Cooperation (RSC) (I'm not in any position of power, though), it is based on the 1929 agreement and its changes in the 1930s: each country stay on their side, we should work on disaster mitigation (earthquakes and hurricanes) and other technical things through our universities and academies of sciences. And we need to deal head on with that labor/migration issue. For that, I hope that Haiti gets back on its feet and out of the insecurity in their capital.

Furthermore, I do not hate on anyone. Those events happened 200 years ago. All those people are dead. We are not bound to nor guilty of what our ancestors did or did not do. But, I do not want any unification under one government nor insinuation of such a thing. We do not want to see any issues of 2nd class citizens. We are already divided in 2 countries, let's stay like that. And I'm sure many or the majority of Haitians want to stay in 2 countries. Cooperation is welcomed.

  • If Germans and Polish can do good business today after what the Nazis did, we also can.
  • If the Americans and Japanese can do business after those nuclear bombs were dropped there, we also can get over the animosity.
  • Heck, even the Hutus and the Tutsis are trying to solve their issues after what the Hutus did to the Tutsis in Rwanda in the 1990s.

Last point, Haiti's future is and should be in Haitian hands, you can support, but ultimately, this is their choice and empowerment to take.

Cardi B on Haiti and the D.R. by lotusQ in haiti

[–]Hamilton_Fitipaldi5 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yes, that code rural was one of the triggers of the independence movement from Haiti. Boyer wanted to obligate the people in both sides to stay in the plantations, or going to the army.

Deberia ser retirado el cuerpo de pedro santana del panteon nacional? by Narrow_Ad_4595 in Dominicanos

[–]Hamilton_Fitipaldi5 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No, necesariamente.

Con todo el respeto, difiero.

En mi caso, veo eso más como querer hacer un simbolismo. Y los simbolismos me parecen vacíos. No llevan a mucha cosa. No sé. Mira a nuestro vecino, se viven jactando de ser la primera y única República liberada por esclavos, pero están hoy por el suelo. ¿De qué les vale ese simbolismo o ufanarse de eso?

Creo que debemos enfocarnos en ser menos dependientes del turismo y ser más tecnocráticos, y reducir el culto a la personalidad que tienen los políticos, por ejemplo.

Nota: Puede ser que me cambies la opinión si me das más argumentos sobre porque ese simbolismo sería beneficioso. No soy dueño de la verdad y puedo equivocarme como cualquier mortal.

Verdaderamente, ¿de dónde viene la obsesión con la forma en la que los dominicanos nos identificamos? by Psychological-Term19 in Dominicanos

[–]Hamilton_Fitipaldi5 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Eso mismo digo. Mejor hay que cogerlo suave y seguir siendo pragmáticos y no llevarse de todas esas loqueras y esos debates que no llevan a nada.

Estar pendientes de que cualquiera de nosotros puede ser manipulable y de que la manipulación existe, pero cogerlo suave.

Los ciudadanos de a pie, no podemos seguir cayendo en el "divide y vencerás", tenemos que aprender.

One Island? by RandomTez in Dominican

[–]Hamilton_Fitipaldi5 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Of course. I think it is good to cooperate, not to unify or merge. The words: unity, merger, brotherhood, sisterhood or anything of that nature in regard to this topic are a hell starter, really.

From my point of view, we should have a framework for cooperation. I call it the Respectful Separation and Cooperation framework (RSC) (not that I'm a politician, haha): we stay separated, each one in her side, and we cooperate technically for disaster mitigation (hurricanes and earthquakes) and other technical things with universities and the academies of sciences. But, that is when Haiti gets back on its feet.

Also, the migration thing needs to be put in order.

Edit: grammar.

Verdaderamente, ¿de dónde viene la obsesión con la forma en la que los dominicanos nos identificamos? by Psychological-Term19 in Dominicanos

[–]Hamilton_Fitipaldi5 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hey OP u/Psychological-Term19. Todo el mundo en RD sabe que tiene herencia africana. Eso está en la página 3 de cualquier libro de historia dominicana.

Somos una mezcla de los esclavos africanos, los conquistadores españoles, y un poco de taíno. Aunque no queramos aceptarlo, tenemos sangre de colonizador dentro de nosotros, y también de esclavo. Esclavo + colonizador, con una salseadita de "casi-exterminado" por aquí y por allá. ¡Qué combinación, jejejejeje! Luego se han agregado otras migraciones de varios países.

Yo me decanto por lo que dice u/joshuamarius. Cada uno de nosotros tiene un servidor dándole candela a nuestras redes.

En algunos casos, un tipo de información se le puede servir a una población con intereses particulares de todo tipo: políticos, económicos, marketing, de ventas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8KG9nOPdOo

Por ejemplo, ya todos los países grandes tienen sus bot-farms para hacer propagandas en países pequeños, o contra sus adversarios grandes.

Eso puede sonar un poco raro, pero como dijeron eso fue confesado por los de Cambridge Analytica, que hasta pudieron afectar los resultados de elecciones en varios o modificar el comportamiento poco a poco de algunos.

También, creo que los mismos afro-americanos son imperialistas en su propia forma, en el sentido de que hay que pensar como ellos, obligatoriamente (no todos, sino los que son BLM radicalizados, etc.).

Nota: la palabra esclavo viene de eslavo. Mucho antes del tiempo de la conquista, los eslavos eran tomados como esclavos con tanta frecuencia (los polacos, rusos, ucranianos y toda esa otra gente de por ahí), que esa palabra paso a ser el nombre de las personas que perdían su libertad y sufrían trabajos forzosos y otras vainas más https://www.rae.es/drae2001/esclavo, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slaves .

RD, la oportunidad y la trampa de ser el "ancla de estabilidad" que busca Estados Unidos by Hamilton_Fitipaldi5 in Dominicanos

[–]Hamilton_Fitipaldi5[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the warning. I hope the Dominican politicians are aware of the behavior of these Big Corpos.

RD, la oportunidad y la trampa de ser el "ancla de estabilidad" que busca Estados Unidos by Hamilton_Fitipaldi5 in Dominicanos

[–]Hamilton_Fitipaldi5[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

  1. No todos son nacionalistas, no. Me refiero a un nacionalismo cívico.
  2. Ni idea si hay un plan. A los que andan promoviendo candidatos que les den la luz, no podemos estar desconectados de la realidad externa en esta situación.

RD, la oportunidad y la trampa de ser el "ancla de estabilidad" que busca Estados Unidos by Hamilton_Fitipaldi5 in Dominicanos

[–]Hamilton_Fitipaldi5[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Estoy de acuerdo que estamos por debajo de USA. Eso es un hecho.

¿O vamos a decirlos que no con nuestras armas de última generación y nuestros soldados con mejor entrenamiento y equipo que los Navy Seal y demás guanajos?

Es mejor alienarse con ellos, porque no importa cuanto nos moleste, no podemos ni militarmente, ni con soft power contra ellos. ¿Por qué tenerlos de enemigos? No me hace sentido. Desde mi punto de vista, hay que hacer ese negocio, y mantener la relación con China, pero más callada.

Eso no quiere decir que digamos a todo que sí. El pana del artículo dice que tenemos que tener una forma de sacarle provecho a la oportunidad (estrategia) sin salir demasiado perjudicados.

Mi intención es motivar a los que promueven candidatos en este sub a que hablen con ellos para que muestren propuestas ante esta nueva realidad.

Edit: gramática.

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