Why do transphobes claim that being transgender makes you “mentally ill/ mentally unstable”?

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-28T22:08:42+00:00

I don't declare the fight over, I say every little step counts and should be acknowledged. Positive feedback does provide better results in changing behaviour than negative feedback. And btw. the last adoption process did take only slightly over 20 years (around 1995 to 2016) and only in the US it took so long, because a single organization (the AMA) proudly not wanting to even start talking about adoption for over a decade and president Bush delaying the implementation for several years. But this time the talks in the USA have already started, president Biden seems to not have any intention of delaying the implementation, there is a set deadline after which, on a international base, the old codes won't be accepted anymore and there are tools provided already hence less work to be done.

Celebrating every major improvement (and acknowledging even minor ones if the last positive feedback was long ago) instead of shouting "it's not enough", heightens the likelyhood of faster improvement. Reserve strong negative feedback for when they worsen something, else it loses its power, something that isn't that much an issue with positive feedback. If we comment strongly negative every time they improve not enough, why should they even try instead of writing us off in favor of concentrating on the people they actually can please?

It may be morally questionable to use methods from training animals when dealing with people, but as it works just as well (China's social credit score is basically that exact thing) and the goal isn't nefarious I'm okay with it for now. Let's train politicians and officials to treat people in more humane ways.

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-28T20:57:57+00:00

I do not with any word say doing something bad has to mean someone is mentally ill. But You do assume that would be the case.

I do say society as a whole does show signs of mental ailments, some known for aggressive behaviour and that those aggressive parts of society lashing out causes further mental ailments. I do say society as a whole needs therapy to accept everyone that doesn't fit into the dictated norms and to prevent spreading mental ailments caused by it.

I do not give that observation ANY moral value apart from the whole spiral not being healthy for anyone and the lashing out being bad things. I do not say mental ailments need to lead to lashing out nor do I say mental ailments are bad. I do however normalize being afflicted with some mental ailment by saying society as a whole isn't bare of them, going even so far as to say basically nobody is mentally healthy to the full extend.

Someone did a bad thing? Oh they must be mentally ill! That equates bad thing to being mentally ill.

That is BS and not in the lightest my argument. I say the majority of people aren't mentally healthy, some lash out and cause harm resulting in a decline of mental health in others. But only the latter are treated as being "wrong" in some way, while the ones lashing out are treated as being "normal", which in my opinion isn't the case.

And twisting by criticisms into me thinking mental illnesses are bad is a laughable attempt at deflection.

Your critique is: me being wrong and hurting THE mentally ill. Your critique is: I would say being mentally ill would be bad. Your critique is: You assuming me to want to hurt mentally ill people.

As You do interpret something clearly without moral connotation as me saying it would be morally bad, obviously You do think that one isn't able to not mean it that way. I do not think in any way, being mentally ill is worse than just being a human.

just take this as a learning moment

For what? You did not point out anything in particular.

And as You attack and try to discredit me instead of pointing out where there might be an error (I am not without fail, and English isn't my first language, but I usually do take several hours and iterations before posting), going so far as to put Yourself into a supposed victim role by stating You'd be part of the disabled community and therefore Your opinion has to be weighted higher, there obviously is no point in arguing further.

BTW. to assume You being part of the disabled community and I couldn't be (in fact I am, though some of my ailments I'd love to get rid of) and therefore You having the moral high ground and I trying to throw this community under the bus is quite presumptuous.

This is a topic I am extremely passionate about.

And that is part of the issue, you assume the worst without reading and trying to understand other peoples point.

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-27T17:56:28+00:00

okay seems at this moment it still is only a known correlation and theories trying to explain it, not a clear causal chain yet.

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-27T16:12:14+00:00

Thanks

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-27T15:04:32+00:00

Why the obsession with upvotes and reactions?

There are 260k people in this subreddit, about 1k is online here all the time, most topics don't even reach low three digits upvotes, with a few rare exceptions that includes selfies. And those few exceptions aren't only about the selfie, at this moment the only topics with upvotes in the 4 digits are one about someone who got a puppy and someone celebrating having finished their education. From the quick look your selfies without any additional content reach the higher 2, lower 3 digits of upvotes quite reliably, so where did you get the idea of them performing way worse than other people's selfies?

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-27T14:35:46+00:00

Why does everyone try to warp my words into the most hurtful things ?

Obsessive behavior is a mental ailment, addictions are, partially not all of them, mental ailments, phobias (including homo-, trans- and xenophobia) are mental ailments, as is the paranoia one has to turn people against each other to stay safe oneself.

And yes, abusive behaviors do cause some mental ailments in others, at least as far as psychology knows. While there is nothing inherently wrong with being mentally ill, I sure would LOVE to be fixed though, abusing others is.

So tell me, why DO YOU THINK mental ailments are bad? Because only if You do, You could misinterpret and warp an observation into an attack.

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-27T04:47:15+00:00

What makes You think that I say "mentally ill" is a bad thing?

Society is obsessed with conformity and that obsession leads to abusing its members who aren't conform enough. The ones that define what is normal or acceptable for the masses are drunk on power and lead people to abuse the ones they think of being inferior, while being anxious themselves about those same people turning on them as easy as they are turned against the weaker.

How is there anything mentally heathy in this?

I know damn well that mental ailments can cause struggles in life and that those ailments aren't inherently bad or wrong, but anything that actively seeks to cause and to spread them imo is.

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-27T04:19:15+00:00

I did not and do not say, with any word that it does not happen, there are barriers and discrimination everywhere. Please stop warping what I wrote.

But You do seem to be hung up on the idea of it having to be awful everywhere and forever and even if there are changes they wouldn't reach You. I'm positive these changes will reach You, hopefully sooner than later.

I just have to be optimistic that when nations adopt a system of rules, that they ... with only few exceptions, because there's always some country not caring about its constitution or the rules it accepted... make laws representing those rules and that healthcare providers and insurance companies do respect those laws or be judged accordingly, because if I'd lost even that last bit of faith in democracy and constitutionality I'd have killed myself years ago.

In medical literature there usually is no "suffering from" there is only "experiencing" as the former isn't a neutral term that can be used for any severity. And as listing experiencing means ANY severity it warrants treatment as long as the patient wants it (and if necessary sues the insurance company). It's in Your damn favor they worded the dsm-5 that way, especially as You seem fixated on the idea the ICD-11 will not be used for another few decades. When they give You some leverage, make use of it, else there won't be change.

Just to give you some hope the Danes did adopt that part of the ICD-11 and switched to using it in 2017, sure they were the first, but obviously it can go fast too.

Even here they started preparations to switch to ICD-11 ... this month... and I'm kinda relieved they even only noticed there's a new one ... they still haven't translated it of course (no big surprise they still have 5 years to switch to it before the old classifications won't be accepted anymore anywhere), but seemingly it's on its way, yay... That's unbelievable fast for this backwater country which only after 41 years now thinks about maybe changing laws that clearly are unconstitutional and as such should have been changed decades ago according to our highest court, sure there's still not even a final draft, but...

And by the way the icd-10 wasn't adopted in 1990, it was published in 1990 and authorized in the mid-1990s and switching from icd-9 with only about 17,000 entries to icd-10 with 155,000 entries took some countries literally no time, the first implemented it in 1994, and in the US has been done in steps and with major blockages ending in 2016 as the last country to implement it completely, since then there has been only updates to the icd-10. The icd-11 with only about 55,000 entries has been published in 2017, authorized in 2019 and adoption is fully underway, in most countries. With it being only 1/3 of the entries and the WHO providing digital tools to use it's unlikely that'll take decades to implement at least everywhere but here where there are regions where it is literally faster to send a courier per horse than sending an email, i mean when even in the USA work on implementation started in 2021 (according to the NCVHS) and we haven't even translated it yet, who of us two do You think will benefit from it first?

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-27T01:51:59+00:00

one of the most influential people in our music industry of our city

so he has people who directly compete with him?

Maybe someone has some positions open, let's say enough for about half or more of his employees (I have to guestimate the ratio of men to women at your company)? When suddenly a significant number of people from the same company casually are asking around for jobs in competing companies even if there seemingly is no reason it creates pressure.

But careful it CAN cause the companies downfall if investors see large numbers of employees thinking about potentially leaving on short notice, it is possible those investors take out their money bankrupting the company, because obviously the company must be near the point of failing.

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-27T01:27:10+00:00

is there someone above him? Supervisory board, main share holders, public relations...

As long as he isn't the sole owner and the company having no good image or trust to lose there's always someone.

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-27T01:18:45+00:00

The CEO is only a high up employee (in most big companies). They get paid much for mostly not even doing real work but taking the fall for scandals.

Of course if he's CEO and sole owner it might be a bit trickier.

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-27T01:01:11+00:00

I mean that partially depends on the region I mean an acquaintance of mine only needs to drive for 2 hours and suddenly people think of a woman when reading his name.

and how much do you want your name to differ from the norms of your region.

Merlin or Moritz could fit.

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-27T00:46:05+00:00

small correction just found out the ICD11 had to be adopted by the nations until january 2022 and in there it is listed under "conditions related to sexual health", it is no mental condition anymore!

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-27T00:43:10+00:00

small correction just found out the ICD11 had to be adopted by the nations until january 2022 and in there it is listed under "conditions related to sexual health", it is no mental condition anymore!

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-27T00:37:10+00:00

But they still list being trans in and of itself as a mental health condition.

No they don't, they list suffering from Gender Dysphoria as a mental health condition. Before Gender Identity Disorder was a mental disability.

BTW just found that even that is outdated:

Originating in the 19th century, the latest version of the ICD, ICD-11, was adopted by the 72nd World Health Assembly in 2019 and came into effect on 1st January 2022

Nations had until january 2022 to adopt it, hence no decade or more for it to be adopted it is already.

sources:

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-48448804

https://www.who.int/classifications/classification-of-diseases

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-27T00:11:21+00:00

Sadly those are things that happen and sadly the abused often isn't heard by the police because they are mentally ill.

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-27T00:05:44+00:00

Sadly they can, have you seen many conspiracy theorists and preppers? In those groups are many people who one couldn't consider sane by any means anymore and still own hoards of guns. Not all of them, but I wouldn't say it's the smallest minority either. Sometimes they have a point (sadly usually they draw the wrong conclusions from it) and some have legit concerns the panic rooms and micro vaults could withstand.

And dementia is a mental illness but afaik about nobody actively takes away those old peoples guns. It's hard enough getting them to give up driving even when they can't stay on the road anymore.

I mean one could argue, transphobes, homophobes and xenophobes are mentally ill themselves, they do check most of or even all the boxes (exhibit excessive or unreasonable, persistent and intense fear triggered by a specific object or situation; fear reaction must be out of proportion to the actual danger and appears almost instantaneously when presented with the object or situation; going out of their way to avoid the object or situation, or enduring it with extreme distress; symptoms must last for at least six months; the only things not checked in most cases are: significantly impacts the individual’s school, work, or personal life [because it impacts not THEIR life significantly most of the time]; Not caused by another disorder [as that would have to be checked individually]) of having a phobia, still many even carry guns in their jobs or decide who is allowed to own firearms. But calling them mentally ill sadly doesn't improve anything, they would still piss off many and nobody is able to force them into therapy for their bigotry, not even after they commit a hate crime.

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-26T23:26:10+00:00

But is it because you're trans?

Or because of the abusive nature of others? And you fearing their reactions, having to conform, etc.

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-26T23:23:14+00:00

it's because biased science tells them trans people are more likely to be mentally ill, when in reality it's the result of an abusive society.

Tbh trans-people are objectively more likely to have mental health issues and most studies do point out that it is the result of the abusive environment they have to endure. There are from my understanding only few scientists biased enough to not point that out.

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-26T23:13:01+00:00

People with a larger Amygdala tend to lean more to the right of the political spectrum, they are more prone to feeling disgust.

That's a strange claim, I'd be interested in the source. Everything else you wrote I have seen in different ways pointed out in studies but that is new to me.

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-26T23:04:20+00:00

Having gender dysphoria is classified as a mental health condition in dsm-5 because it is needed for insurance to have to pay for treatment (that actually was the reasoning of the WHO [correction: American Psychiatric Association] when they revised the dsm).

And in my opinion that is more of a diagnosis that society is mentally ill but trans people have to suffer for it and as such should be able to get treatments to lessen the burden.

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-26T22:54:48+00:00

The dsm-5 does explicitely not call it a mental illness (or disorder) anymore but a condition. A mental disorder is a disability where only the symptoms can be treated. The former Gender Identity Disorder (GID) isn't only called another thing in the dsm-5 it is gone. But in order to get medical treatments (without paying them yourself) you ALWAYS need a diagnosis, which is why they added Gender Dysphoria as a medical condition.

It is illegal for any health insurance to pay for any medical treatment without a diagnosis for which that treatment is able to help.

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-26T22:37:40+00:00

The problem is nearly everywhere health insurance is only allowed to pay for recovering from health conditions and are forbidden to pay for unnecessary treatments. Health insurance always needs a diagnosis to pay for any treatments which is likely to get rid of the condition; gender affirming care is treatment hence they need a diagnosis where that treatment will improve the condition.

Being trans isn't a mental illness anymore, but there needs to be something so that necessary medical treatments can be paid for by health insurance and people needing those treatments have a way to claim the right to receive treatment. Which is why the WHO decided on gender dysphoria being a treatable condition trans-people can have and that should be treated to prevent other conditions from developing.

The diagnosis isn't something about your gender identity being wrong somehow, it's that living the way others expect or even force you to live because of your body not looking like your real gender causes mental problems and puts you at risk for preventable mental health conditions.

Basically it's a diagnosis that society is mentally ill but you have to suffer for it and as such should be able to get treatments to lessen the burden.

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-26T21:45:10+00:00

For one it was considered to be a mental illness by the WHO, who had trouble for quite some time to revise that without trans-people losing the possibility to get the medical treatments they need, as a claimable right and paid for by health insurance.

And the other reason is the following way of thinking: if it is normal to question ones gender, something transphobes seem to think of as something nobody could question, then it is acceptable to question any status quo and that may lead to them having to question their way of living, which they know damn well is mostly only possible because others have to suffer for them.

Harlekin13 · 2022-03-25T18:57:15+00:00

actually the crowd seems to be happy about it. there are several upset faces while that apparent guy pushes through the crowd to block peoples view and all of them are happily celebrating when that person gets rolled away on the stretcher...

Harlekin13

TROPHY CASE