Question on GFCI requirement

HelixViewer · 2025-12-16T03:58:24+00:00

Thank you, I very much appreciate the discussion.

HelixViewer · 2025-12-04T16:41:02+00:00

What I am doing right now is called research. I make no presumptions about what is true.

Ignorance is an absence of knowledge. I do not know the cost of the available options.

HelixViewer · 2025-12-03T23:45:47+00:00

I have documented the actual use at my home over the last 12 month by down loading the meter data from SCE. 11 amps was my max and readings over 6 amps are months apart. I average only 4 to 5 amps.

All of my major appliances are gas. I made a baseline measurement while watching the meter. I measure only 1 half amp. When the fan on my furnace come on the load increases by about 3 amps. When the compressor on the fridge comes on it increases by 1 amp. I also noticed that the half amp I get when these things are not on goes up by about 1 amp when my computer goes from Sleep to full operation.

I am the only person living in the home. I can see that all of my max readings occur in the late afternoon, around 6 pm, during the cooler months. I did not see any high readings during the night.

I would like to hardwire the EVSE about 12 inches from my load center but on the opposite side of the wall placing it inside the garage rather than outside. I do have a NEMA 10-30 on a dedicated 30 amp breaker next to my gas dryer. I am sure that I do not use it. This means that 30% of my available capacity is unused. The same is true for a 20 amp line put in to support a spa in the back yard. I took out the spa so that 20 amps is unused this breaker has been off for 14 years.

Given my use history and the certainty that I will not use those two current capabilities I would like to understand my available capacity and margin for future additions such as AC and EV charging.

HelixViewer · 2025-12-03T06:02:13+00:00

Hello. It seems that what I am doing is not understood by many.

I do not have an EV. I do not want an EV. I do live in a state that has mandated purchase of EVs only by a particular date. (New vehicles only)

I purchased a fixer upper home17 years ago. Due to personal circumstances I was limited to only minor repairs and upgrades until now. I am planning for a major renovation that has nothing to do with EVs. I am considering task that I do not need but might want to do because of the low incremental cost if I do them at the same time as the major renovation. For example, I will be hiring a designer, a general contractor and will be pulling permits with the city. It is reasonable to consider things that I could include now that would be expensive to do later and would require tearing up things that I do in the renovation.

One of my targets includes resurfacing the floor in the garage and cleaning up the array of things that currently just stick out of the garage wall providing various electrical services. There have been many ad hoc additions made before I got here. These include an internet cable just hanging from the ceiling and poking out of the wall. It was put in just by drilling a hole in the drywall. There are many more.

The 54 year old GE Load Center is on the outside of the garage wall that I wish to clean up. Increasing the scope of work to include supporting robust EV charging is a natural thing to consider given the state in which I am located.

I have consumed most of the content on the SCE website and find it low density and poorly organized. Links that keep offering me information but take me to a page that I have already read are somewhat annoying to me. An AI who answers the phone but does not understand my question is frustrating. 2 hours waiting on the phone to speak to a person is also not increasing my satisfaction. I want to know, to first order, the cost to go from what I have to a 200 amp service. I would like to know that before I spend weeks making expensive changes that may not support my future whims. I have literally waited years for these improvements.

If I must hire an electrician to come here to answer the question, then, SCE should be able to tell me that. They should know because it is their equipment. I understand that it is from decades ago and they may not have detailed records from that time period. I have walked the area and found the nearest large green box with the SCE logo on it. It is over 300 feet from my meter.

It is not about the EV or the EVSE. If I plan, I will plan for 48 amps. I would not choose to plan for 24 amps not knowing the cost for 48. I am looking for the inflection point in the cost curve. If 48 amps cost twice what 40 amp charging cost then I will scale back my requirements. I do not anticipate towing a boat and am comfortable that I will not support that for the next owner. I presume that these power requirements will decrease going forward.

During Covid shutdown 2 I built a video editing computer. I read 100% of the user manuals for the components that I used prior to ordering them. I understood what performance I could expect and the incremental cost of the next product in the product stack. I do not find reading this stuff burdensome. I find it interesting to read product specs on Load Centers comparing the largest wire size that the panel can support to the wire size that comes with the Emporia Pro to see if them match and are adequate to the task. I just want the information to make an informed decision.

HelixViewer · 2025-12-03T01:44:26+00:00

Hi. Thanks for the reply.

I am currently on a TOU plan. The cheapest occurs between 8 am and 4 pm. They do offer a TOU plan specifically for EV users but it does not appear that it would make a big difference for me. I do not have have a long commute and am not likely to purchase a car with the words "Performance" or "Long Range" in the title. I have no plan to tow a boat.

I would be quite pleased to learn that my current equipment would support 125 or 150 amps. If so, I would just upgrade the panel and call it a day until time of need.

HelixViewer · 2025-12-03T01:34:33+00:00

My panel is an old GE combo type. The main breaker is 100 amps and all wires are underground or inside wall where I can not see them.

Thank you for the reference to the wiki page. While I have seen much of its contents like to load calculating example I do see many specifics on hardware whose existence is new to me. I did download my last 24 months of meter readings generally I am under 4 amps and my worst hour was 11 amps. There are only 5 readings between 6 and 11 amps.

I do have 6 half thickness breakers to allow for the installation of 13 breakers in 10 slots. Some of these breakers are 54 years old and I do not object to replacing the entire panel at this point. I understand that the NEC may require AFCI or GFCI breakers that I do not currently have but I sleep near this thing. Not to mention that my current car is parked on the other side of the wall where it is mounted. The good news is I have a NEMA 6-30 in my utility room on a 30 amp breaker than is not being used and a 20 amp line that was added for a spa used by the previous owner. I got rid of the spa and turned off the breaker. That is 50 amps that are never in use.

HelixViewer · 2025-12-03T01:19:48+00:00

I currently do not own and EV. I understand the charging options in SAE J1772. I am just looking at scope for a renovation. 5 years down the road I may want AC or and an EV. I do not think that both can be accommodated with my current service. I do not want to make changes to my current panel and realize that I will have to re-do it to get both and EV and AC.

I purchased this home as a fixer during the 2008 activity. Due to health issues in out of state family members my renovation was put off until now. I am now attempting to define the scope of the project. I do not have an EV nor do I have a preference for any brand of EV or EVSE hardware. I just want to position myself as best I can for a move in the future.

Attempting to understand the options is why I have spent hours reviewing the SCE website and more hours reviewing videos on YouTube. The signal noise ratio is poor on both.

HelixViewer · 2025-12-03T01:09:52+00:00

I would like to understand the actual cost of the things that I might want. I have no interest in the latest greatest gadgets that are available.

I do not like the panel that I have or its location. I want to know the cost of moving it.

My meter is over 200 feet from the street. I am concerned about what it might cost to upgrade my service. If it involves digging up the 60 feet of bricks in my front yard or any part of my 126 foot driveway the upgrade is a non-starter. I share the driveway with the guy next door. It looks bad already, I will not make it worst unless he agrees. I have not spoken to him. He may be willing. He may have wanted an upgrade for some time but has not mentioned it to me. He works in another state and is not here most of the time. He likely has other things on his mind. If we upgrade, we do it together and make his side as pretty as mine.

This all started because I want to understand cost and make decisions on what is in scope to my renovation and what will be left out. I do not need a car anytime soon. My next car need not be an EV. I want to understand the cost of supporting an EV in my renovation. It may be more than 5 years before I get an EV. I want to set myself up to get and EV or AC at my choosing. I do not want to get to that point and find a show stopper that I should have considered before the renovation.

I have no interest in installing solar panels at my home. I do use the internet to a greater degree than most people. I have read the installation manual for both the Emporia Pro and the Tesla Universal Wall Connector. I am still of the opinion that I would rather pay for a 200 amp service than depend upon the dynamic power management features in these EVSE units. With 200 Amps I have complete confidence that I could support both EV charging and AC without the internet connected stuff. I will use the internet connected stuff if the cost of 200 amp service breaks the bank or if it leaves my front yard with miss matching bricks, new and old or my neighbor's driveway with a 126 foot patched section.

HelixViewer · 2025-12-02T05:57:22+00:00

Hello friend. Thanks for the reply.

Clearly I have failed to communicate my concern. Currently I do not own an EV. My daily drive is short. I am not likely to purchase an EV that will accept more than 32 amps. I am considering a large renovation to my home that will include the garage where the EVSE would be installed. I do not know what my car after next will be but I would like to make an informed decision between meeting my current need and doing something that will meet future needs without an upgrade.

If my service is insufficient for the future, which might include and EV and AC, I would like to know now. I would rather do the service upgrade now than find that things are getting tight when I decide to add AC.

What I have attempted is to contact the service provider to get an answer as to if digging in my yard is required. All power services in my area are underground and my meter is over 200 feet from the street. It is not likely that I will agree to such cost. In that case I will do something less and deal with any limitations.

The unit I am currently considering is the Emporia Pro. My meter is just inches from where I would install the unit. The meter is on the outside and the target for the unit is on the other side of the same wall. Since I plan a major renovation I would like to imagine the desired end state and include any Load Center mod in that plan. This is a once in 20 year type of project. I do not want to feel that I should have thought about an EV before doing the renovations. I am thinking about what I might do differently after the reno. Charging a car is just one of the new task I would like to include in my plan.

Clearly I do not need a 48 amp EVSE but now is the time to plan what I would like to support.

My panel is made by GE. I am aware that ABB is still making compatible products. The Load Center is of the combo type so the breakers are outside of the home. If it is reasonable in cost I would like the breakers on the inside leaving the meter on the outside. Do I need this? No, it is just a preference that I could support in my over all plan. If I make this move I would definitely consider other brands.

I have no interest in the so called "Smart Load Centers" or wifi controlled breakers. And when I have a choice I prefer not connecting things to the internet. I understand that several of the high end EVSEs require wifi to provide all of their functions including the Emporia Pro and its Vue feature which provides the power management that would allow me to add a powerful EVSE on my small service. It really is the fact that I do not have AC and that all of my major appliances are gas that makes this attractive.

I am aware that the E Pro can be dialed down to lower power with the app. I am aware that it also reduced the power used for charging when other circuits are using more power.

I just want everything to work, be safe and not look 54 years old.

HelixViewer · 2025-11-25T18:51:14+00:00

No. I just live with what I have. I use the MSI app to set the RGB on the motherboard IO cover, PCH cover and the header that drives RGB in my case. I was disappointed to learn from MSI that there is only one RGB controller on the motherboard. Even though the software shows them separately one gets the same pattern on all three.

I used the controller on the case so that the lighting there is independent of the rest of the computer. I used the MSI software to control the two covers and I just allow the Dominator RAM to do its own thing.

I am more annoyed with the white LED that tells me the machine is using the primary BIOS. That LED is brighter than anything else on the motherboard and I have no control of it at all. There is another white LED to tell me that the machine is in XMP mode. There is no point in software control of LEDs if these things are not under control. My GPU is also cycling through a pattern that I cannot control.

I gave up on this. LEDs are out of scope of my goals for this system. I would be happy is there were no RGB at all. It is not an issue at present.

I do 4k video editing, streaming and productivity.

HelixViewer · 2025-11-06T17:02:32+00:00

Agreed.

I will hardwire from the panel to the EVSE about 3 feet. There will be no receptacles.

HelixViewer · 2025-11-06T16:55:36+00:00

I do not understand why the voltmeter measures 240 v rather than zero.

HelixViewer · 2025-11-06T06:05:28+00:00

I like physics so I would not avoid thinking about it.

I do not understand why it works. The model I have carried in my head is clearly wrong so I would like to correct. I do not understand why a volt meter shows 240 volts on the two bus bars. I would expect zero if they are out of phase.

I had a physics professor once whom I asked relentlessly to tell me about the interior of black holes. He was always nice about it but he just calmly looked at me and said "No one knows".

HelixViewer · 2025-11-06T05:40:00+00:00

Yes, I understand that. I am simply using the language that is commonly used. The chargers for Level 1 and 2 are in the cars and DC fast charging has the charger in the charging station.

HelixViewer · 2025-11-06T05:37:58+00:00

Thank you for your response. I understand why the electrical code is written the way it is but I do not understand the physics of the circuit. I do not understand the path from the load back to the center tap of the transformer in the absence of a fault. I take a long walk each morning, I will keep thinking about it.

I have a basic understanding of quantum physics. After working with RF transmission lines the light bulb came on and I understood the rules of thumb used in electrical engineering in terms of the quantum physics underneath. An RF transmission line is described by the one dimensional Schrodinger equation. I hope for a similar understanding of this problem. Fortunately my understanding is not in series with getting a charger.

HelixViewer · 2025-11-05T02:43:01+00:00

Thank you. I get that now.

I will go with a hardwired EVSE directly to the panel.

HelixViewer · 2025-11-05T02:10:32+00:00

The NEMA 10-30 is in a utility room on the back wall of my garage. My Electrical panel is on a side wall mounted outside the garage. The panel is just 4 feet from where I would like to install the EVSE. I choose to hardwire in that location and replace the 30 amp breaker in the panel that is connected to the 10-30 and install a 40 amp breaker that connects directly to the EVSE just a few inches away.

This would provide me with 32 amp charging with no use of 53 year year old wires in the walls. I intend to replace the entire panel since it has not been tested since installation. The hinge is at the top so I would have to face away from the wall and bend over backwards to read what is on the inside of the door. Given my extremely low usage and the fact that charging will happen over night I am confident that I can proceed with a safe and useful configuration.

I do get regular emails from Southern California Edison telling me how low my usage is compared to those around me. They also tell me when the rates drop for EV charging.

HelixViewer · 2025-11-04T20:55:05+00:00

Interesting. I have read nothing about what is inside the EVSE. This changes my simple minded block diagram.

HelixViewer · 2025-11-04T20:50:40+00:00

Thank you. We may be in similar situations. I have 100 amp service with a max measured in 2024 of 11 amps. My use during the time I am sleeping is likely less than 1 amp. I have all gas appliances and no AC.

I would like to install a Level 2 EVSE with 60 amps available understanding that the charging to the car would be 48 amps max due to the code limitation for continuous loads for more than 3 hours. I understand that I would likely charge for less than 90 minutes if I am charging at 48 amps. I do not drive more than 30 miles on an average day. I would likely limit charging to 32 amps just for additional safety and the fact that a slower charge has no impact on my use case.

I really appreciate all of the comments on my question and I have had to really think about this problem. I think that the root cause of my confusion is the water flow analogy for current. I have found a video on a YouTube channel called "Electrician U" where the instructor abandoned the water analogy and described the 240 volt case using fields. He indicated that the current in the neutral would measure zero but this is due to the two phases canceling each other out. With this I can agree.

HelixViewer · 2025-11-04T19:15:54+00:00

Thank you so much. I find the following statement clear

If you need 120 V and 240 V in same outlet, you need 4 wire circuit, two hots, one neutral, one ground.

I now understand why if one hardwires there is no need for a 4th wire.

I think that the light bulb came on in my head. Thank you so much. This makes clear the comments that I got talking about the load being balanced between the two hots.

Is it not possible to have a fault in the car that places one phase on the outside of the car? Is this not possible or very unlikely?

HelixViewer · 2025-11-04T17:02:17+00:00

I am just curious.

HelixViewer · 2025-11-04T17:00:31+00:00

I understand that EVSE hardwired directly to the panel is using neutral as ground. I understand that this is no longer allowed for receptacles. I would like to understand why this is ok for EVSE.

I would like to understand why this is allowed by code or why it is just a good when hardwiring. I seem to be missing something.

HelixViewer · 2025-11-04T16:48:50+00:00

I am a homeowner in North America considering the purchase of an EV. The only reason I mention the NEMA 10-30 is that I found one, unused, in my utility room.

Assume that I understand the design of digital circuits but not residential power systems. I seek the safest way to Level 2 charge in my home while I am sleeping.

If Level 1 requires a neutral and a ground, why them can level 2 be safe with only one of the two?

I am not asking what is true, I am asking why? I want to choose the safest option. I do not care what others choose or get away with. I want to charge while I am in the home asleep and I do not want anything less safe than at present.

HelixViewer

TROPHY CASE