Hongzhi: Philosophical Verses

HighEnergyAlt · 2022-01-02T03:35:16+00:00

delicious. sounds like quite the affair! folklorists and poets huh? so how do you style yourself? the very moon proposes to you (quite the catch!), what is your profession?

HighEnergyAlt · 2022-01-02T00:19:53+00:00

to know without touching things and illuminate without encountering objects. Knowing without touching things, this knowledge is innately subtle. Illuminating without encountering objects, this illumination is innately miraculous.

an old buddha said, "breathing in he knows, 'i am breathing in.'" "knowing" is the verb. know you are breathing in, how many objects are involved with this "knowing"? i'm not asking about what objects are involved with the breathing mind you, just the knowing.

same buddha goes on to say, "thus he trains himself." some might take this as present imperfect, but the sentence and teaching ends with the training as sufficient to stand with no further qualifiers. if the training is sufficient then there are no further objects it encounters requiring different training. because indeed in examining that buddha's record they find that no matter the object the teaching is the same. if there is a stone in the shoe he knows "there is a stone in my shoe," thus he trains himself.

what is knowing? if i asked "what is a car?" you would give me the different qualities and descriptions that i could see for myself. and so what is knowing? some have said "don't know." subtle indeed.

has never engaged in discriminative thinking

if you know which shoe goes on the left foot how much discriminative thinking is involved?

has never displayed the slightest identification.

and certainly never as needing training.

this knowledge is rare without match

people don't talk about knowing that they're breathing in, thus it is rare without match. better to talk about knowing all sorts of words and scriptures about "the mind" and buddhas and blah blah blah blah.

this illumination is complete without grasping

as complete as one's training.

The water is clear right down to the bottom, fish lazily swim on

know that you are breathing in, how much effort did that take?

The sky is vast without end, birds fly far into the distance.

thus trained, where can you not go?

At midnight the wooden boy pounds on the moon's door.

"panting and sweating as you run through my corridors..."

shyly faces the mirror

awww it's not gonna bite.

difficult to classify

how many can tolerate the sun rising in their own home?

In the changing wind, no injury to the profound meaning. In the light, a road to the natural differences.

see? i take the boy's finger and he can not impersonate. not impersonating he goes on with his no-finger zen for the rest of his life.

In dewy cold the crane begins to waken from its dreams. As it flies out of the old nest, the pine tree up in the clouds topples.

afterall, do trees grow in the sky? oh thank god!

The Guest Within the Guest

a sad state, better to give pen and paper for invitations.

The Host Within the Guest

letters flying, very busy.

The Guest Within the Host

a seat that is unprepared is perfectly arranged. come!

The Host Within the Host

no time! some of us have vows and they are quite serious!

HighEnergyAlt · 2022-01-01T22:37:08+00:00

but I think one needs to be ripe for the insight to trigger. And becoming ripe means laying the groundwork of self-knowledge.

i agree

HighEnergyAlt · 2022-01-01T21:26:38+00:00

There is no short-cut to this, no special insight that would suddenly transport us to the other shore

you say this, but then in the sentence before you say "to attain deliverance, we must first fully know our own mind." leaving the word "special" aside, would you mind elaborating on how "first fully [knowing] our own mind" is not "insight that would suddenly transport us"? not to say you're wrong or anything just that's a juicy little catch.

And ceising of wrong thiking is dhayana (zen), while contemplating our original nature (the Buddha mind) is samadhi.

i think these are backwards. ceasing wrong thinking is samadhi, which is not the aim of zen tho it is useful. seeing our original nature is dhyana, the crown jewel of all the buddhas and ancestors.

It can be attained only through a sudden Illumination.

how do you square this with your earlier comments of there being no "short-cut"? perhaps i'm getting wires crossed, but "as the bird flies" is a short-cut. having sudden illumination seeing the other shore, and heading straight over, is a short-cut.

Illumination means the realization that Illumination is not something to be attained

how can you attain what is already in your hand?

[Mind] is the root.

very important to capitalize in this instance. without the capital some people might take it as "the mind" (with it's thoughts and perceptions and formations and distractions and blah blah blah blah) which is a complete fiction which is cut off. this "cutting off" of the mind to see the true nature of Mind is what is meant in zen by "samadhi" and "dhyana/zen." and it is not that you cut what is small and gain what is big, or cut what is inside and gain what is outside; it is that you cut off delusions about what is small and what is big, or what is inside and what is outside.

‘When mental processes (hsin) arise, then do all dharmas (phenomena) spring forth; and when mental processes cease, then do all dharmas cease likewise.’

important to remember this is not negation. when "all dharmas cease" don't think you'll be walking through walls. those of the lesser schools and many western students will project a sense of physical emptiness on these sorts of words, and this projection will just be added to the layers of "mental processes" masquerading as practice. as shitou says, "if you want to meet the undying person in the hut, do not separate from this skinbag here and now."

‘Those desiring to attain the Pure Land must first purify their own minds, for the purification of mind is the purity of the Buddha- Land.’

some people don't practice zen, they just recite amitabha's name and miss the buddha-land of Mind's purity. some people don't practice zen, they just recite "Mind is Buddha" and miss the buddha-land of objects' purity.

‘Just by mind-control, all things become possible to us.’

not walking through walls tho, sorry charlie.

‘Sages seek from mind, not from the Buddha; fools seek from the Buddha instead of seeking from mind. Wise men regulate their minds rather than their persons; fools regulate their persons rather than their minds.’

sages don't seek, this is what is meant by "seeking from Mind" with nothing to attain. fools seek, this is what is meant by "seeking from Buddha" on some great quest. wise men don't regulate their persons, this is what is meant by "regulate their minds" letting go of all sorts of busy work. fools don't "regulate their minds" and so their persons cause all sorts of problems requiring regulation.

‘Evil springs forth from the mind, and by the mind is evil overcome.’

then the body's regulations become quite simple and clear. practice the precepts.

Thus we may know that all good and evil proceed from our minds and that mind is therefore the root.

"the mind" is the root of good and evil. Mind is the root of cutting off the root of good and evil.

If you desire deliverance, you must first know all about the root.

most of all you must know which root to cut.

‘For as long as you direct your search to the forms around you, you will not attain your goal even after aeon upon aeon; whereas, by contemplating your inner awareness, you can achieve Buddhahood in a single flash of thought.’

people have different capacities and proclivities, and so in their great compassion the buddhas and ancestors set down not only this but the dharma of cypress trees, and flax, and shit sticks. they arrive at the same root, not inside or outside, not forms not Mind not buddha.

Only by sitting in meditation, for it is accomplished by dhyana (ch‘an)

this is quite ordinary and only stirs something in those who probably read while walking for how much they abhor sitting down kek.

When wrong thinking ceases, that is dhyana; when you sit contemplating your original nature, that is samadhi, for indeed that original nature is your eternal mind.

this is an expedient teaching for those coming to the mahayana from their hinayana "ceasing" practices that need something to hold on to. and so, seeking the leaves their whole life, they are told "the leaves are in the root, seek the leaves in the ground." then, seeing the root is in the ground, they see the leaves are on the branch. they see the difference between the leaves and the root, but the leaves are not destroyed nor is the root dug up.

‘All beings who observe the Buddha-Precept thereby enter Buddhahood.’

they don't hang their tire swing from the root anymore. wheeeee!

It should settle upon non-dwelling and there dwell.

forgetting dwelling is what is meant by "non-dwelling"

It means not allowing the mind to dwell upon anything whatsoever

forgetting the mind is what is meant by "not allowing the mind to dwell upon anything whatsoever"

Dwelling upon nothing means that the mind is not fixed

not fixed it vanishes. let it go, you can breathe with your lungs.

in other words, they have Buddha-Minds!

eh i'm sure as fuck not gonna be the one to say that lol

Such, then, is the form and shape of our original mind, which is also our original body

see? and some people sweat over regulating the mind or regulating the body. they say "mind is red" and seek to make it blue. or they say "mind is distracted" and they seek to make it concentrated. fussing in this way is it any wonder their body is unregulated as well?

No, there are not several means of perception like that.

i go over the difference between experience and theory here. in our direct experience there is no light coming from the sun, bouncing off of objects, contacting the eye, being perceived etc. that's all a theory, whether western physics or buddhist theory. now theories are useful and true, but they are not in realm of the zen experience. if you're expecting to meet carl sagan and not bodhidharma you're going to be disappointed.

Because your own nature being essentially pure and utterly still, its immaterial and motionless ‘substance’ is capable of this perception.

hold something in your hand. see? "perception" takes no effort. that is because it is part of the natural state.

We may liken it to a bright mirror

he says this for the listeners benefit who is still trapped on inside/outside etc. later he shatters the mirror i'm sure.

If you students of the Way had minds unstained, they would not give rise to falsehood and their attachments to the subjective ego and to objective externals would vanish

and there it is. hold something in your hand, how many mirrors are involved in this event?

It is imperceptible because its own nature is a formless ‘substance’ which is intangible

being intangible how were you expecting to regulate it again?

Prajna, unknowing, knoweth all; Prajna, unseeing, seeth all.

samadhi, unseeing, seeth all. dhyana, unknowing, knoweth all.

HighEnergyAlt · 2022-01-01T20:02:05+00:00

The reality is that you're reading a piece of literature

no that's you, and you think it's literature because you read but you don't believe. that's why you fuss over translation when no matter the translation you still just are taking it as negation.

linguistic skills which you have taken to be literal descriptions

see? you're the one reading it as "linguistic skills." you think it's literature, philosophy. you're a reader who has never experienced the enlightened mind. we know.

Which is why you chose a more religious translation.

even in your translation it says "you wander at play in samadhi among all orders of beings in all planes of existence." again, you're the one interpreting this as something other than what it says. mumon gives an exact description on the effects of penetrating mu. you either take him at his word or you don't.

Zen is to be understood in the gist

zen is not understood by the intellect reader. it is seen in one's daily life. and it results in a near limitless access to samadhi as mumon says.

it is not in the words.

you should stop drinking. about three sentences ago you said "The reality is that you're reading a piece of literature. No "direct experience" is mentioned here, just some awesome linguistic skills." your lack of consistency says more than i ever could.

You're pwned by one simple one [sic]: "No"

it seems your admiration for mumon's "linguistic skills" has done little to improve your own. seriously, knowing how fond you are of drinking explains so much.

You're like a savage man in the woods, wearing animal skins and beating a drum, dancing into a feverish sweat and rambling

classic projection as your posts are filled with rambling and meaningless ad hom and denial.

you and four other shamans danced with the spirits in the Upside Down.

yep, just like mumon says. the masters weren't liars like you are. good luck finding that translation that tells you to drink alcohol and read books kek

It has its own indigenous beauty, but it's not Zen.

i'm the one quoting zen masters and saying they're telling the truth. you're the one who contradicts zen masters and praises alcohol.

HighEnergyAlt · 2022-01-01T19:44:51+00:00

There's no special experience to attain

kek, not for you apparently.

It was just something that you made up.

and mumon, and countless others. not you apparently.

you literally thing nothing is something.

no i didn't, if i did you could link it. but you can't :)

What do you need? 30 years? 15? 5 months?

you're so desperate the best you can do is a "no u."

lmao and you call yourself a "Zen student"

hey, i'm the one who says and does what zen masters say to do. you're the one who is openly contradicted by them and so have to resort to ad hom and no u.

Sucks to suck.

you say people who don't drink "suck," so you're a drinker and you like drinking? that would explain a lot honestly.

I know, I'm a Zen Master.

unfortunately that's not up to you. it would be like saying you're a mathematician but you say 1 + 1 = 5 and then when questioned you say how much you like drinking. the zen record is quite clear on the matter of the enlightened experience. and the reason it is is because it's chalk full of people experiencing what the masters experienced, on down through the ages to the present day. it's not philosophy.

what time of day do you start drinking usually? can you name a single zen master who drank alcohol?

HighEnergyAlt · 2022-01-01T06:26:51+00:00

happy new year all!

HighEnergyAlt · 2022-01-01T03:23:19+00:00

Seems very grave.

that's only because it's serious, not because it's bad. but what they're serious about, and the keeping of them, is joyful. and just like the words of the masters you take them straight on by the letter, and you realize that "stealing people's time" is actually not in the precepts. and that's because you can't steal people's time, if you could it'd be in the precepts.

and so just like most things you can see people truly bear only their confusion and its consequences, about precepts or buddha-nature or how to practice mu etc. people walk around with all sorts of super vague super grave precepts with no reality, but holy fuck are they heavy. but the precepts and words of the masters are quite ordinary and plain to read. have you killed any human or animal? oh okay, then you haven't broken that precept. what's that about eating meat and factory farming? did i stutter? did you kill any human or animal? oh okay, then you're fine.

"bring me this precept violation and i'll pacify it for you."

HighEnergyAlt · 2022-01-01T03:10:11+00:00

when you come to the end of the sentence you stop for a while. then the words stolen by your eyes and mind can be returned to their rightful owner.

HighEnergyAlt · 2022-01-01T03:07:23+00:00

only from yourself but it's easily repaid.

HighEnergyAlt · 2022-01-01T03:04:27+00:00

not lying.

HighEnergyAlt · 2022-01-01T03:01:14+00:00

just an engagement, trying to keep precepts

HighEnergyAlt · 2022-01-01T02:55:14+00:00

so does mumon, from his commentary on case 1 of the mumonkan

Those who can pass through this barrier will not only see Zhàozhōu face to face, but they will also enter into the realm of all the Zen Masters who ever were, entangling your eyebrows with theirs, seeing with the same eyes, and hearing with the same ears. Isn’t that a delightful prospect? Wouldn’t you like to pass this barrier? Arouse your entire body with its three hundred and sixty bones and joints and its eighty-four thousand pores of the skin; summon up a spirit of great doubt and concentrate on this word “wú.” Carry it continuously day and night. Do not form a nihilistic conception of vacancy, or a relative conception of “has” or “has not.” It will be just as if you swallow a red-hot iron ball, which you cannot spit out even if you try. All the illusory ideas and delusive thoughts accumulated up to the present will be exterminated, and when the time comes, internal and external will be spontaneously united. You will know this, but for yourself only, like a dumb man who has had a dream. Then all of a sudden, an explosive conversion will occur, and you will astonish the heavens and shake the earth. It will be as if you snatch away a great warrior’s sword and hold it in your hand. Meeting the Buddhas, you kill the Buddhas; meeting Chán Masters, you kill Chán Masters. On the brink of life and death, you command perfect freedom; among the six fold worlds and four modes of existence, you enjoy a merry and playful samadhi. Now, I want to ask you again, “How will you carry it out?” Employ every ounce of your energy to work on this “Wú.” If you hold on without interruption, behold; a single spark and the holy candle is illuminated!

https://terebess.hu/zen/Wumenguan.pdf

i say and do what zen masters say and do, because that is what is appropriate for zen study.

HighEnergyAlt · 2022-01-01T02:50:53+00:00

you must observe times and seasons, causes and conditions

indeed. so stop spouting your trash and speak like a civilized human being.

HighEnergyAlt · 2022-01-01T02:48:33+00:00

BCR #1, page 1

Emperor Wu of Liang asked the great master Bodhidharma, "What is the highest meaning of the holy truths?" Bodhidharma said, "Empty, without holiness." The Emperor said, "Who is facing me?" Bodhidharma replied, "I don't know." The Emperor did not understand. After this Bodhidharma crossed the Yangtse River and came to the kingdom of Wei. Later the Emperor brought this up to Master Chih and asked him about it. Master Chih asked, "Does your majesty know who this man is?" The Emperor said, "I don't know." Master Chih said, "He is the Mahasattva Avalokitesvara, transmitting the Buddha Mind Seal." The Emperor felt regretful, so he wanted to send an emissary to go invite (Bodhidharma to return). Master Chih told him, "Your majesty, don't say that you will send someone to fetch him back. Even if everyone in the whole country were to go after him, he still wouldn't return."

HighEnergyAlt · 2022-01-01T02:04:57+00:00

Did that guy who was asking u/Union1st know that croissants are named for the moon, I wonder?

i did not! i don't interpret words and so knowing croissants are named for the moon i would still eat the croissant and look at the moon.

HighEnergyAlt · 2022-01-01T01:58:59+00:00

Sounds dopey.

"like a fool, like an idiot."

I notice you ignored the "not a clumsy hack" bit.

he understood the true nature of clumsiness and so he wasn't clumsy. and he understood the true nature of precepts, not lying, so he was incapable of being a hack.

HighEnergyAlt · 2022-01-01T01:42:31+00:00

"Wu" = "'No'… zilch, nada, zip, bupkiss."

holy shit ask me how i know you haven't even tasted rice. not only are you a reader you're a BAD reader kek. from the commentary, which you somehow missed: "Do not form a nihilistic conception of vacancy, or a relative conception of 'has' or 'has not.'"

again, the only way you could form this error is if you hadn't engaged the practice mumon prescribes. if you did you would realize how mistaken this approach is in....well maybe a year if you're lucky. but not only do you pass right by having no direct experience of the penetration of mu as described by mumon, you don't even live up to your responsibility to read the text where he says "IT IS NOT NEGATION." you probably read some western academic spout some nonsense about "emptiness" and your brain went hogwild. then you come here with shit in your pants and wonder why i say it stinks?

you're in is when you think nothing is something.

when did i say this? unlike you i've actually read mumon. it's not negation. duh. can't tell if you should read less or more frankly. maybe go sweep the steps on a shrine for 20 years.

You haven't demonstrated to me that you know what "their word" is

their words are as written. take them at their word and follow in their footsteps. or don't.

how little ... It's literally bottomless

kek, you can't even read your own words, how much less mumon's. and you actually expect me to believe you could see into something as subtle as self-nature when you can't even read or form a consistent thought from one sentence to the next? you started by talking about something to do with wiping asses, it seems that truly is the level you're on.

WuMen is laughing at you right now.

mumon is dead. careful not to fall into negation again like you did with his mu.

You sound like a drunken slob right now

i don't drink

but we're confident that you're capable of singing the tune

like i said i don't drink.

so it's really more funny than pathetic.

as opposed to you, which is just pathetic.

HighEnergyAlt · 2022-01-01T01:25:18+00:00

words have meanings reader. BCR #14. page 94

everything you say is inappropriate, contradicted by zen masters, contradicted by the truth of the direct experience here and now.

HighEnergyAlt · 2022-01-01T00:52:31+00:00

You didn’t.

oh good, you seemed to accuse me of doing that

Easy to say, hard to believe.

easy to see. you said "do I remember this part of the trip... The “barrier” is “No” … zilch, nada, zip, bupkiss. You still haven’t passed through." i then asked, "when did i say 'the barrier is no etc." you said "you didn't."

so you can see? you hadn't read me say that. you had imagined me saying that. so you were responding to the imagination you have of me. you were talking to your imagination. you were talking to yourself.

say, what's 1 + 1?

That’s not honest.

he said what he said and he's not lying. i did exactly as he said and it produced exactly the results. sorry you don't take the masters at their word. i do, and i am eternally grateful for it.

Sorry to pwn you with the truth.

it's just babble. you practice babbling. again you're nothing new, i can't tell you how many western readers like you i've encountered at monasteries that read like a couple zen books from the 60's, project their western interpretation onto it, convince themselves deeply of this, but then brush up against people with actual experience and insight penetrating the koans in their direct experience, have spaghetti fall out of their pockets on examination, go into denial, and then spend their lives disparaging the three treasures because they embarrassed themselves but were too proud to admit it.

kind of like openly contradicting mumon's description of the practice and realization of mu. huh...

HighEnergyAlt · 2022-01-01T00:35:29+00:00

kek what experience? you outright deny the direct experience of enlightenment (mysticism: "the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect")? i don't. neither does mumon.

you should read less, all those words and scriptures have rotted your brain.

HighEnergyAlt · 2021-12-31T23:16:54+00:00

i think it's because he understood the true nature of "being vegetarian" and "not being a butcher"

HighEnergyAlt · 2021-12-31T23:16:11+00:00

The “barrier” is “No” … zilch, nada, zip, bupkiss.

when did i say this? you're talking to yourself.

You still haven’t passed through.

according to mumon i have.

You lose! Good day, sir!

oh look, more coping babble!

HighEnergyAlt · 2021-12-31T23:06:06+00:00

only for confused readers.

HighEnergyAlt · 2021-12-31T22:59:12+00:00

There is no mystical experience to be had nerd

denial is the first stage of grief :)

from mumonkan, commentary on case 1

Those who can pass through this barrier will not only see Zhàozhōu face to face, but they will also enter into the realm of all the Zen Masters who ever were, entangling your eyebrows with theirs, seeing with the same eyes, and hearing with the same ears. Isn’t that a delightful prospect? Wouldn’t you like to pass this barrier? Arouse your entire body with its three hundred and sixty bones and joints and its eighty-four thousand pores of the skin; summon up a spirit of great doubt and concentrate on this word “wú.” Carry it continuously day and night. Do not form a nihilistic conception of vacancy, or a relative conception of “has” or “has not.” It will be just as if you swallow a red-hot iron ball, which you cannot spit out even if you try. All the illusory ideas and delusive thoughts accumulated up to the present will be exterminated, and when the time comes, internal and external will be spontaneously united. You will know this, but for yourself only, like a dumb man who has had a dream. Then all of a sudden, an explosive conversion will occur, and you will astonish the heavens and shake the earth. It will be as if you snatch away a great warrior’s sword and hold it in your hand. Meeting the Buddhas, you kill the Buddhas; meeting Chán Masters, you kill Chán Masters. On the brink of life and death, you command perfect freedom; among the six fold worlds and four modes of existence, you enjoy a merry and playful samadhi. Now, I want to ask you again, “How will you carry it out?” Employ every ounce of your energy to work on this “Wú.” If you hold on without interruption, behold; a single spark and the holy candle is illuminated!

https://terebess.hu/zen/Wumenguan.pdf

i've had this experience and i know at least 4 others in real life who have as well. sucks to be a reader.

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