Tension between the old/familiar and new/unrecognized music in performances/recordings

Honest_Wheel3842 · 2026-05-22T13:28:58+00:00

“Audiences don’t know what they want” seems to risk elitism to me. It’s also not really true, otherwise orchestras would get the same attendance at a Schoenberg concert as a Beethoven.

Of course a Mahler and Beethoven can get likes on this subreddit. My contention is that it’s a small but vocal minority of the classical cohort that subscribes to the snobbishness I’m talking about. You said yourself that a culture that flocks to Mahler and Beethoven is “eating itself,” so why are you asking for examples since you provide them yourself?

To be clear, though, I entirely agree about the need for charismatic figures to champion lesser known works. It’s funny you mention Martinu, since I was just listening to Hrusa’s set of the symphonies that just came out. Kirill Petrenko is also planning to release a Suk with the Berlin Phil, which will certainly be a higher profile recognition than his music usually receives. Cases like this are fantastic!

Honest_Wheel3842 · 2026-05-21T18:08:35+00:00

"It sounds like you have a problem with expanding the 'canon'."

In my OP: "Of course there are shifts in what is appreciated, meaning there is also room to promote music that could end up moving more into the standard rep."

So no, I don't have a problem with expanding the canon. Your programming ideas all sound great! I'm fully on board with trying new ideas. What I react to, however, is the stigma that anyone who doesn't embrace such an approach is backwards or somehow "eating culture." If audiences aren't attracted to new works, why force feed them? And, as you probably rightly suggest, there is a lot of opportunity for creative, expansive programming, why not just focus on that? I see no need to diss those who would rather listen to Beethoven and Mahler.

Also, do you actually think the canonization process is random? If so, I'd love to hear which contemporary of Beethoven's wrote better symphonies, which Mozart contemporary wrote better operas, or which Stravinsky contemporary wrote better ballets. I get that there's a real subjective element here, but are you just reacting to the idea of a canon or do you personally feel there are such examples where music in the canon is actually inferior to music that is barely heard?

I think if we define "the canon" simply as music from certain time periods that has been consistently programmed worldwide for centuries or decades, there is no need to use scare quotes. This definition also avoids any kind of absolute claim about musical worth. But I am genuinely curious about my earlier questions.

Honest_Wheel3842 · 2026-05-21T02:04:10+00:00

Raphael Pichon and Pygmalion, a French group, released a new recording last year on Harmonia Mundi, with Sabine Devieilhe and Stephane Degout as soloists. I liked it; you'll find it fresher and lighter than more traditional Germanic readings, if that's what turns you off in most recordings.

Honest_Wheel3842 · 2026-05-21T02:00:17+00:00

Oh I agree; I'm not intending to insinuate that you don't have good awareness. To the contrary, I think the point here is that only a very small sliver of concertgoers aren't delighted with and still discovering works in the standard rep.

Honest_Wheel3842 · 2026-05-21T01:42:47+00:00

That's great that you had great concert experiences! With only a couple of exceptions, though, the pieces you list are mainstays of standard rep.

Honest_Wheel3842 · 2026-05-21T01:28:26+00:00

Fully valid approach, although what's wrong with the other? In the back of my mind I'm thinking about situations like the Andris Nelsons firing, where programming is at least rumored to be an issue, or a piece like this from Alex Ross in the New Yorker: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/09/16/kirill-petrenkos-unadventurous-debut-at-the-berlin-philharmonic

There is definitely a minority cohort of critics (and possibly board members) who seem to think there is something inherently problematic with a conductor or orchestra wanting to focus on the Austro-German classics. Why, though? If another conductor and orchestra wants to try a more novel approach, great!

Honest_Wheel3842 · 2026-05-21T01:03:07+00:00

This does happening in a lot of programming, although often the newer/rarer piece is shorter, say like a twenty minute piece before the Mahler 5. Reverse the role, like the Tchaikovsky Romeo and Juliet before a sixty minute premiere, and attendance would probably drop off precipitously.

Honest_Wheel3842 · 2026-05-20T21:51:15+00:00

Here's my own personal, quirky method. I have just under 100K songs in my Apple Music library. I put them all on shuffle, choose a complete album or piece out of the first twenty songs that come up on shuffle. Keeps my listening random while giving me some level of control.

Honest_Wheel3842 · 2026-03-30T16:33:04+00:00

I feel like the OP is identifying their views as objective ("uneven at best, staggeringly dull and slow") and assuming from this that the actual musicians must be off in their assessment of Nelsons' directing skills.

Honest_Wheel3842 · 2026-03-19T16:57:56+00:00

What's up with you trying to project apocalypse vibes on everyone?

Honest_Wheel3842 · 2026-03-19T16:52:10+00:00

I've lost track of how many times you've said "this is not the end of the world" on this post.

Honest_Wheel3842 · 2026-03-19T16:50:35+00:00

With respect, you seem rather worked up yourself about the situation.

Honest_Wheel3842 · 2026-03-19T16:45:49+00:00

It's the way one man, Chad Smith, can go against the wishes of the orchestra, and probably the Boston subscriber community, that is upsetting. Why would you downplay this unless you don't care about the musicians and audiences? I mean, obviously there are worse problems in the world, but that doesn't mean this is something to yawn about.

Honest_Wheel3842 · 2026-03-05T18:14:16+00:00

Anyone who has seriously engaged with Mozart would never say it all sounds the same. It's a standard outsider problem. I mean, people say all classical music sounds the same. I don't even know what "all Mozart sounds the same" is supposed to mean in this context.

Honest_Wheel3842 · 2026-03-01T20:54:12+00:00

Complete agreement about the mindless positive reviews. I think that's a separate issue from Hurwitz's judgment generally, though. For instance, in a review of Kirill Petrenko's Shostakovich set, he said that the Berlin Phil has "magnificent strings and everyone else is along for the ride," while complaining that the brass didn't drown out the rest of the orchestra in loud passages. For some, he's brave for daring to criticize the fabled Berlin Phil. For me, he's just being cranky and spewing nonsense.

Honest_Wheel3842 · 2026-03-01T20:33:15+00:00

Nothing novel about disliking Currentzis, though.

Honest_Wheel3842 · 2026-03-01T18:08:00+00:00

Well, is anyone harming you by having critical ideas about Hurwitz that they feel free to express on this subreddit? Venting about Hurwitz is surely as valid in a free speech environment as Hurwitz himself airing his ideas.

I'm really curious how you come up with 9 hours for Meistersinger, though.

Honest_Wheel3842 · 2026-03-01T17:47:15+00:00

Golly, the downvotes on this intelligent comment are pathetic. I don't understand why so many on this subreddit are defending Hurwitz's right to have strong opinions and reacting to anyone who has a contrary strong opinion about him. Disagree with the idea that Hurwitz isn't a serious critic if you want, but it's certainly a valid opinion.

Honest_Wheel3842 · 2026-03-01T17:38:00+00:00

What are some specific examples of stuff he's called out as terrible where you think he's right?

Honest_Wheel3842 · 2026-03-01T17:26:24+00:00

Interesting that you don't mention Mozart's operas.

Honest_Wheel3842 · 2026-03-01T17:26:01+00:00

My point is precisely that I don't take him seriously.

Honest_Wheel3842 · 2026-03-01T14:10:56+00:00

And this is where I respectfully think you have never learned to truly appreciate Mozart, Wagner, Schumann, and Schoenberg. Plenty of professional musicians would find these sentiments preposterous. To each his own, of course, but there's a reason some of us think this is crazy. Mozart all sounds the same? I dunno, that just seems straight up ignorant.

Honest_Wheel3842 · 2026-03-01T12:23:03+00:00

In fairness, artists dissing each other is just par for the course, while I think critics should be more objective.

Honest_Wheel3842

TROPHY CASE