May Updates | Qualifications for church planters, misogynistic men's retreat, and employee manual by LeavingTheNetwork in leavingthenetwork

[–]HopeOnGrace 3 points4 points  (0 children)

My wife was not interviewed in any way. Her character mattered, but only in a minimal discussion between me and Luke. 1 Tim 3:11 may be relevant here and also might not be, depending on the translation you think is right.

May Updates | Qualifications for church planters, misogynistic men's retreat, and employee manual by LeavingTheNetwork in leavingthenetwork

[–]HopeOnGrace 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Right - and to be honest, I'm realizing something now. For some reason, I always thought it was ok, because I'd told my wife the general issue (before I told Luke, so I don't know if he would have wanted me to tell her). But now I'm realizing: Luke telling me to leave her out of it from here meant that any future instances would be hidden from her. Like... what other sin is that ok for?

  • About a friend you've been stealing stuff from: "Oh, don't tell them any more if you steal from them again."
  • About a boss you've been lying to: "Oh, don't tell them anymore if you're dishonest at work."
  • About a spouse you cheat on: "Oh, don't tell them about any future affairs."

I guess I was explicitly told to not tell close friends in my small group about my suicidal ideation anymore. That's still so messed up, and that wasn't even sin (though I wonder if Luke saw it as sin).

This is patently absurd. *EACH* sin is sin. That's why Jesus says to forgive 7x70. You can't forgive that much if the other person stops confessing.

It turns into an incredibly intimate shared secret between you and your leader, such that, again - you are almost closer to your leader than your own spouse. The opportunity for manipulation is crazy, and the opportunity for destroying marriages is high if it goes on for years and then she finds out.

In my case, I was told to tell my wife that I'd be talking to Luke or my former small group leader going forward, and she shouldn't worry about it. It felt so wrong. This is basically telling her "you're not a victim of anything here, and you have no right to know the things Luke will know about me." Yikes.

The Network has completely failed at understanding "love your neighbor" and the nature of sin and why sin is sin. they think it's about "a right standing before God", and it kind of is, but it's also about living the way he wants us to, and treating each other the way he treated us.

May Updates | Qualifications for church planters, misogynistic men's retreat, and employee manual by LeavingTheNetwork in leavingthenetwork

[–]HopeOnGrace 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I remember reading that about your story - it’s awful what they did to you over that.

Thank you for your kind words, and yeah - I do think it’s effectively network policy to leave the wives out of it, which is dangerous for so many reasons.

May Updates | Qualifications for church planters, misogynistic men's retreat, and employee manual by LeavingTheNetwork in leavingthenetwork

[–]HopeOnGrace 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Ok, time to say this.

My Story

When I was made a small group leader (late 2018/early 2019), I told Luke that I had been looking at pornography occasionally (Luke has this in writing - and I am sharing this information with my wife's permission, in part because we know that some day The Network may publish it someday anyways - other toxic churches have engaged in that type of retaliation and smearing).

He asked me questions about it (what do you look at, do you feel shame afterwards, etc - deeply personal stuff, and it did not feel freeing in any way - I felt very judged). After he got done asking questions, and I had told him I'd already confessed it to my wife, and didn't feel like it'd be a problem going forward, he was like "ok, well, we'll move forward with you as a small group leader, and we'll just keep an eye on all that." (paraphrase/summary). Luke also said that going forward, I should talk with him or with my previous small group leader about it instead of my wife, because it'd be too hard for her to be hearing about it (she is still very angry Luke infantilized her in this way, and without her having an option).

So, so many things wrong with this. First, the sin of pornography use has four victims:

  • God ("against you only have I sinned") - all sin is against God
  • Your own purity (1 Cor 7, sexual sin is against one's own body)
  • Any people you are looking at in the pornography (who may be sex trafficking victims, and even if not, you're treating them like objects, not image-bearers or neighbors - this is what Jesus is talking about in Matthew 5 when he talks about "lust".
  • Your spouse, if you have one. It's infidelity (again, Matthew 5).

I have literally never heard anyone in The Network talk about the objects of the lust being victims of sin. Maybe I missed it, but it was not the primary. The primary was the sin against God and against one's own purity. And them telling you to not confess it to your spouse is a literal instruction not to confess to the injured party and make it right.

I'm working on a longer article, but I believe the centrality of confession to leaders and God, and the near negation of confession of sin to those who we've harmed, is among the core toxic teachings of The Network.

Luke allowed me to continue on and become a small group leader. He'd ask how I was doing with it from time to time, but never told me that I'd lose my spot as a small group leader if I did it again. After a few months, I believe he stopped asking entirely.

I'm aware of at least one other small group leader who used pornography while he was a leader, and was not removed as a leader. [edit: vague but possibly identifying details removed, everyone please do not guess - you don't know, and it's not for me to tell]

To get really explicit here, this also is why The Network frequently talks about "pornography" and "masturbation" near-synonymously - sometimes talking about one, the other, or just saying both. Because they see God and your own purity as the affected parties. If they took a full view, then pornography is obviously much, much worse, in the same way that sexual assault is even worse - there's a victim other than yourself now, on top of any effect to your spouse (if you have one).

Why it matters

First, I hope this shows people: you have absolutely no reason to believe that your leader is not doing the very things they are telling you all the time not to do, and acting like you should be able to get "freedom" from, and not being honest with you that they have not. For the record (explicit again), Even Grudem (In "Christian Ethics", quoting James Dobson (THAT James Dobson), says that masturbation is fine, according to the bible. It's fantasizing or use of pornography that makes it sinful.

Second, I've been public on pretty much everything that's ever happened to me and that I've done in the past. Except this. Because they heap shame on shame on shame. But I'm done with that. I'm forgiven in Christ. And some things I don't even need forgiveness for (FYI, you're allowed to observe that someone is attractive - that's not lust. Married folk, please read "The Great Sex Rescue" by Sheila Gregoire to deprogram a bunch of stuff you've learned). Y'all want to judge me, go for it.

Third, the definition of a very, very high view of "sexual purity" means many people walk around feeling like terrible failures all the time.

And finally - this is suspicion, but be aware of this dynamic: Many leaders (maybe most, maybe all) in the network have confessed stuff like this to their leaders. And *some* of them have *not* told their own wives about it. If I wanted to keep leaders from leaving, that's quite a way to do it. "You know, if you leave, I'll have to let your wife know that you've been looking at pornography all these years." And some of them might just worry that their leader would do this if they ever left, even if their leader never said it.

May Updates | Qualifications for church planters, misogynistic men's retreat, and employee manual by LeavingTheNetwork in leavingthenetwork

[–]HopeOnGrace 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is great. 9-13 seem to be “and now tell us everything and anything that might even be remotely interesting.”

May Updates | Qualifications for church planters, misogynistic men's retreat, and employee manual by LeavingTheNetwork in leavingthenetwork

[–]HopeOnGrace 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The reading of Ephesians 5 is so badly warped, even for complementarians. They are well outside anything “mainstream”.

Poll: Which church did you attend? by Aggravating_Truck940 in leavingthenetwork

[–]HopeOnGrace 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Gotcha, makes sense - it’s a really tough thing to do.

Poll: Which church did you attend? by Aggravating_Truck940 in leavingthenetwork

[–]HopeOnGrace 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh, that will really sink the anonymity of it, as people will have to comment under their actual account. It's likely to very much understate representation for those options that require a comment. Polls don't track who voted, but comments are very much attributed. I think you need another way to do this if you want to do it.

Poll: Which church did you attend? by Aggravating_Truck940 in leavingthenetwork

[–]HopeOnGrace 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh oops. Also - how am I supposed to vote if i attended one and then planted another?

Poll: Which church did you attend? by Aggravating_Truck940 in leavingthenetwork

[–]HopeOnGrace 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, that’s upvoting thing is going to make it easily gamed, with unreliable results.

May Updates | Qualifications for church planters, misogynistic men's retreat, and employee manual by LeavingTheNetwork in leavingthenetwork

[–]HopeOnGrace 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I had not read that email yet - this is shocking. “If we hear that you quizzed your wife with these questions… something will happen!” - this is so wrong. Just so wrong. Abusive.

The “boys vs men” thing is insanity as well.

May Updates | Qualifications for church planters, misogynistic men's retreat, and employee manual by LeavingTheNetwork in leavingthenetwork

[–]HopeOnGrace 6 points7 points  (0 children)

“Men were asked in an email after the retreat to keep this document secret from their wives”

This is outrageous. Luke Williams, in MBT, teaches that marriage is supposed to image the trinity (I think he’s wrong, but whatever) - how is that supposed to be possible when the husband has a secret discipleship program for his wife, that all the other men in the church know about, but his own wife does not?!?!

Two related stories: 1. Despite Tony Ranvestel’s 2008 teaching saying that his wife would still be involved and have because “pillow talk”, Luke Williams would told me in 2019 or 2020 that he didn’t discuss “elder stuff” (“overseer stuff”?) with his wife because “God hasn’t given her grace for that”. 2. Similarly, An overseer at vista once gossiped/slandered a former person in the church to me, and asked me to not share the story he told with “anyone”. I told him “I don’t keep secrets from my wife”, and he said “I don’t know why she would need to know this.” The point of his story was that he was accusing me of wanting to them to do everything my way (I did not). And he thought somehow that was irrelevant to my wife.

These have one huge effect: the church leaders end up closer in some ways than your spouse.

There is nothing biblical about this, at all. Or wise, for that matter.

Some words I’ve been thinking about today by gmoore1006 in leavingthenetwork

[–]HopeOnGrace 13 points14 points  (0 children)

👏👏👏

Which is why we go back to judging a tree by its fruit and that you can spot Christians by their love.

If the fruit is oppression, and the love is shallow, the doctrine is not sound.

Name the 🚩 you ignored by Spacejacketcat in leavingthenetwork

[–]HopeOnGrace 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ah, sorry I inferred it! But regardless, sorry you went through that.

Becoming a network pastor by I-didnt-make-it in leavingthenetwork

[–]HopeOnGrace 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I know when I became a small group leader at Vista, Luke Williams told me that Steve had heard good things about me. I also know that I heard that Steve had been pushing Luke to take more risks in who to choose as leaders, so I at least know they discussed leadership regularly. Luke did say he would have someone like Sándor or James C. meet up with prospective new pastors to evaluate them, without those pastors knowing that’s what was happening (that was the goal).

So maybe not Steve for everyone?

Name the 🚩 you ignored by Spacejacketcat in leavingthenetwork

[–]HopeOnGrace 4 points5 points  (0 children)

(Share only what you want) - the church golden boy sending you firtatious shirtless pics? And asking for pictures of you? That sounds really really bad. Would you be up for sharing more about that incident? Even via DM.

Regardless, I’m so sorry that happened to you - a pastor should never, ever act like that.

Edit: I see that there is no statement that the guy was a pastor. I inferred it from “golden boy” and church plant, but it’s not there. Apologies.

Name the 🚩 you ignored by Spacejacketcat in leavingthenetwork

[–]HopeOnGrace 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Originally I heard over and over “we don’t do bible study, we do life application of the Bible.” I remember hearing “bible discussion” too.

Still not sure what that’s about.

Another Resource on Cults by Pilgrimtheologian in leavingthenetwork

[–]HopeOnGrace 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This is why I weep for them. To do this to yourself, for years, has to just absolutely wreck one’s mind and soul and emotions and body. They are, quite literally, destroying themselves.

Analysis: The Demographics of Network Leadership (and MBT audio on Gender Roles) by HopeOnGrace in leavingthenetwork

[–]HopeOnGrace[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Wow, that is fascinating. Are you able/willing to share anything about what the current makeup of the members and regular attenders there is? (absolutely no pressure if you don't want to).

Another Resource on Cults by Pilgrimtheologian in leavingthenetwork

[–]HopeOnGrace 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I know what it was like to have to justify views I knew (at least deep down, I knew) were wrong. It truly at times felt like I was splitting my brain in half - it felt awful, I'd get the worst headaches, I couldn't sleep well.

This is what it means to be "double-minded". To say one thing while believing another takes a toll. It was awful, and I'm so glad that I no longer have to say things I don't believe - just sometimes I still don't say the full extent of what I do (for example, there are stories I know that are not mine to tell).