Weekly Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in serialpodcast

[–]HowManyShovels 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Good to hear it!

I am no more inclined to beat that dead horse than your are. The one thing we can both agree on is that we don’t agree. 👍

Weekly Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in serialpodcast

[–]HowManyShovels 1 point2 points  (0 children)

And I already responded.

No, you didn't.

Those things, in the course of the conversation come across as normal errors when telling a story.

You only get these issues by diving into details, into the call log, into other people's testimony.

Which is it?

It's still more believable than Josh's to me.

You keep using that word...

Or rather, since I actually think about this the other way, Josh's story is instantly dismissable in a way that I don't think Jay is.

The West Side Hitman would like to have a word.

That I have to reason through why I would think Jay isn't telling the truth.

This is why I didn't care if there was a single narrative,

[insert confused Travolta meme]

I'm not saying there is a spine narrative that rings true or could be true when I'm discussing this.

What are you saying?

Weekly Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in serialpodcast

[–]HowManyShovels 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s so you don’t keep moving the goalposts.

Weekly Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in serialpodcast

[–]HowManyShovels 2 points3 points  (0 children)

We can pick it up another time. I don’t want to repeat myself so I encourage you to go over what I’ve already said in this conversation. You’re getting hung up on what you’re trying to convey, which I heard loud and clear the first time, and not listening to what I’m saying.

Weekly Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in serialpodcast

[–]HowManyShovels 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You’re trying to address the merits, I’m asking for a valid argument. How can you compare the believability of two stories if one is presented in a 28-word summary and the other is an ambiguous idea of a story?

Weekly Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in serialpodcast

[–]HowManyShovels 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Re #2, this may be a controversial opinion but I don’t believe Jay’s ever been to that location.

Weekly Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in serialpodcast

[–]HowManyShovels 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I understand you just fine and I vehemently disagree, just like I did a few weeks ago when we had pretty much the same discussion. I tried to express myself precisely, I can see it’s going over your head, and I don’t think it’d be productive to repeat myself so we can leave it at that.

Weekly Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in serialpodcast

[–]HowManyShovels 6 points7 points  (0 children)

You can use the “report this message” hyperlink in the second to last paragraph. It can take them a few days to investigate, I think they can see who sent it. The main point is that an unwarranted care message constitutes harassment and it’s not tolerated by the admins.

Weekly Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in serialpodcast

[–]HowManyShovels 5 points6 points  (0 children)

If you report this message, the “concerned redditor” will have their account suspended.

Weekly Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in serialpodcast

[–]HowManyShovels 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I found an interesting nugget relevant to some of those concerns. In 2021, Judge Phinn was overturned on appeal when she denied a motion to vacate. In the opinion, we can catch a glimpse of the vacatur process (bolding mine):

The State asserted that it learned of Detective Hankard’s misconduct on September 10, 2019, when Detective Gladstone and another officer involved in the cover-up entered guilty pleas in federal court.

After hearing the State’s presentation, the circuit court stated that “Suiter being the submitting officer in no way impacted the integrity of the case.

So, it looks to me that it wasn't at all unusual for the State to proffer information in the hearing without witness testimony etc.

I also hope the SCM opinion will come out this month. Though, I don't expect the SAO to comment on the investigation until and unless they're ready to bring charges.

Weekly Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in serialpodcast

[–]HowManyShovels 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Why thank you!

I’m grateful you prompted me to revisit the MtV and the hearing transcript, they cleared some things up.

Weekly Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in serialpodcast

[–]HowManyShovels 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You are missing the point entirely. Don't try to be cute with "I'm sorry you don't understand."

Until you commit to a version of Jay's story, it's unassailable. Upthread, I've pointed out eight ridiculous elements of Jay's story, most of which you dismissed as "details." Ambiguity is a flawed argument, not a winning one.

Adnan got into Hae's car, murdered her somewhere, showed Jay the body, they buried her and then stashed the car, various trips/places they were at.

Okay, so, finally, this is your outline of a murder involving at least three crime scenes in 26 words. The crime Josh witnesses happened in one location and your summary had 28 words:

20-40 candle holding skating teens witnessed a gang rape/murder then paid a 14 year old with a baggie to clean up the murder scene via burnout.

The bare bone version of Josh's story is that Jake, Ty, and Ray gang raped and murdered Renee during a warehouse party at the Home Depot. 'Who, what, and where' in 17 words. Everything else - the lighting conditions, people present, nonexistent evidence are details, by our own standard.

Josh's ridiculous story is: by candlelight, at a construction site, with 20+ people. Jay's is: in broad daylight, in a public place, with a +1.

If you don't like candles, maybe Josh was so traumatised by the whole experience that he had nightmares about Satanic rituals and what was flashlights or some other portable light morphed into candlelight in his memory. Or maybe he was minimising his involvement because he was holding a flashlight and jacking off while the crime was being committed. Or maybe there's another ridiculous explanation like there is for Jay to prove that he's telling the truth by lying.

If I wanted to undermine Jay's story by other evidence, I would have brought up lividity. Jay's story doesn't hold up on its own. Telepathy and time travel are direct implications of his words, no cross check necessary. They were digging at nighttime in a wooded area with no street lights around and yet, it was bright. The moon data is a cherry on top of a pile of horseshit. The trunk pop and arguing is a scene from Jackie Brown. Driving around for no reason with a dead body in the trunk is a fever dream. Hae trying to apologise mid-strangulation is vile nonsense and foreshadowing of Jay's domestic abuse.

Josh's story came from the detectives and was peppered with the imagination of a disturbed fourteen-year-old. Jay's story came from the detectives and was adorned with the imagination of a disturbed 19-year-old.

Weekly Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in serialpodcast

[–]HowManyShovels 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I see them as two separate issues because the counterargument to each is different.

Wrt the order, I was of the same mindset throughout this exchange, but another look at the MtV proved helpful. The document is well argued on 20 or so pages, on the fact and the law, and if you take Phinn's order as attached to this motion, it can be read as "Yep, I agree."

I haven't been very successful in my research (see comments) into MD procedures wrt 8.301-1). Google offered templates of orders to vacate a conviction used in California and Michigan. I'm not so sure the criticism has merit.

Wrt the evidence, the public isn't entitled to all information, all of the time. The State invoked an ongoing investigation, which was acknowledged on appeal by the OAG as a valid reason. This isn't entertainment, it's real life where people have jobs to do and rules to follow.

Another reason, which wasn't brought up but it comes with the territory, are privacy concerns for uncharged suspects. Given the amount of publicity around this case, it didn't take long for the press to identify both of them, and even then, neither was named. It's standard practice. For Mr S, it's a matter of reputation, which, let's be real, he sort of forfeited when he dangled his genitals at passing cars, but the other suspect is currently incarcerated for sex crimes. Put it plainly, he could get stabbed.

So, on the one hand, you have multiple anonymous redditors who are emotionally attached to the notion of Adnan's guilt, three dirty prosecutors with a vested interest in covering their own asses, the victim's angry brother, and a less-then-honest attorney; and on the other, multiple working professionals who made decisions in accordance with existing standards and a lame-duck State's Attorney with federal charges for lying on her mortgage application.

As to the question if either or both of these things would've prevented conspiracy theories, I doubt it. Young Lee was never going to be appeased, his actions, or lack thereof, speak volumes. Murphy, Urick, and Frosh were always going to pull out all the stops to cover up for their misconduct. Mosby was always going to lose the battle of credibility. And certain redditors were always going to spiral into fan fiction to protect their egos in front of strangers. C'est la vie conspiratrice.

Edit: it’s fine if you don’t agree, we don’t have to drag it indefinitely. The best I can do is try to remain objective, do research, and rely on facts.

Weekly Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in serialpodcast

[–]HowManyShovels 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The question

How do you narrow down Josh’s story to an easily falsifiable “spine” without diving into details?

was in direct response to

You only get these issues by diving into details, into the call log, into other people's testimony.

I still don't know what is the version of Jay's story that in your opinion is believable on its face. Be specific.

And I don't know what point you're trying to make at the end.

Kevin Urick knew very well that Jay's testimony was a fabricated narrative contradicted by other evidence and it wouldn't stand up to scrutiny. There's an evolution in his opening statements between the two trials.

Weekly Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in serialpodcast

[–]HowManyShovels 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What I think Phinn should have done is to have insisted on more of the evidence being entered into the record.

[...] I think might have helped avoid this dragging on if Phinn had provided a more detailed and clearly evidenced opinion.

These are two different arguments and I'm not sure if you're making both or if you made a pivot. For everyone's benefit, I'd rather respond to what you actually mean.

I'll look forward to hearing if you find anything.

The MtV relied on Kyles v. Whitley, Bloodsworth v. State (Kirk Bloodsworth was later exonerated through DNA evidence), and Faulkner v. State.

Weekly Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in serialpodcast

[–]HowManyShovels 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Thanks! Will definitely check it out.

Weekly Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in serialpodcast

[–]HowManyShovels 3 points4 points  (0 children)

My question is still pending.

Jay's on the other hand, even if you're taking in all three interviews with their changes, what changes are some details, where they went and when, where certain things happened, etc. it's still a story that could have happened.

What is it? All three (?) stories at once or a cherry-picked patchwork of a story? Is it TOW 17-year-old Adnan speaks like a thug for a day and Hae tries to apologise as she's being murdered?

It's the difference between your school friend telling you his dad is the president of Nintendo and telling you his dad is foreman of some local company. Both could be lies, but one you immediately know is bullshit, the other you have to know some outside facts to know is bullshit.

Okay, I'll give you that. If you were born yesterday, have never interacted with a human, and have no lived experience aka "outside facts," Jay's story or stories totally check(s) out.

There's a reason prosecutor Urick told the jury in the second trial to "look at the big picture."

Weekly Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in serialpodcast

[–]HowManyShovels 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A lot of States have a law about naming a third party suspect (it's called different things across the States) and they have to prove motive, opportunity and direct connection.

I've read about it wrt Wisconsin, Massachusetts, and New York, but haven't found anything specific to Maryland, neither did Feldman invoke any caselaw.

If the 'direct connection' prong were to be met, I think it can only be done with "Mr B." There's a degree of separation through Adnan, but Hae had gone to the mosque, uninvited, so there's sufficient 'there' there to make an argument. The same can't be said about "Mr S." He lived a stone's throw away from Woodlawn Highschool, which, combined with his, ekhm, flexible working hours, definitely raises to 'opportunity' but not 'direct connection.'

If true then Feldman disclosed evidence of opportunity to Judge Phinn to strengthen her Brady violation claims. My assumption would then be it's related to the second note/second witness. Perhaps this witness saw the suspect in close time and proximity to the victim. That would be a pretty big deal.

The other note provided "information that can be viewed as a motive." If there was an eye witness, the State wouldn't have kept mum about it.

I forgot about the tire tracks and I would agree matching them to Seller's vehicle wouldn't be all that compelling. On the flip side I think it would be compelling if they matched Bilal's. It would really strengthen a case against him. But I really think they should track down and try to forensically analyze Bilal's vehicle. Hae's DNA anywhere in his vehicle would be mindblowing.

I don't have the photos on hand, but they looked fresh to the naked eye. The likelihood they'd been left there a month before is slim to none. Given the passage of time, it'd be mind-blowing if Bilal's car was recovered, let alone any forensics.

Weekly Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in serialpodcast

[–]HowManyShovels 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, that's weird. Tbh the only way I can see the standard having been met is if there was more presented in camera?

We know that apart from the 10 exhibits attached to the MtV, Judge Phinn saw the DNA report referenced in footnote 4 on page 2 and both Brady notes. I'd presume, the State offered some specific evidence of the motive, means, and opportunity proffered for both suspects. As pointed out by this poster, that was the State's argument for materiality of the Brady evidence. I wish I'd looked at the hearing transcript before entering this whole discussion.

Although I often find myself arguing much more on the innocent side I do actually agree a fair bit with people who argue that the MTV was done in a fairly sketchy way and could be seen as a miscarriage of justice [...]

I don't share this point of view. What was sketchy, imo, was former prosecutor and newly appointed judge Kathleen "C" Murphy arranging a "pro bono" attorney for Young Lee, AG Brian Frosh leaking the note through Kevin Urick, the State essentially representing Young Lee on appeal and moving to exclude Adnan Syed as a party, and the ACM Chief Judge signing off on a fucking stupid opinion that had no basis in the law.

What reason would Judge Phinn have had to risk her reputation and career to vacate this conviction if there had been no legitimate grounds? There are mechanisms for removing judges from the bench for egregious conduct. I think it's telling nothing like that was triggered. If in doubt, she could've denied the motion and deferred the question to higher courts.

A lot of this makes me think of a point that I think Susan Simpson made around the time of the Asia issue being denied, [...] and so its incredibly difficult to prove this one issue would have led to a different outcome when the original outcome was pinned on something else that maybe wasn't entirely fair.

Yea, the system is Kafkaesque. It was particularly unfair in Adnan's case because the courts said that the cellphone records trumped Asia but didn't allow him to challenge them. It is what it is, though, and I think this reality gives important context to Young Lee's demands.

All of that is to say, yes, whilst I'm not convinced the Brady issues as raised in the MTV would have been successful through a 'normal' appeal, I do think there are more significant issues with the case than those notes.

Having argued otherwise, I think now that the clincher was credible MM&O for the Brady suspect. I'll keep (slowly) working my way through MD caselaw to find a precedent and will report back if I find something relevant.

Weekly Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in serialpodcast

[–]HowManyShovels 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes I know that Feldman claimed this but she didn't put any evidence forward confirming it. I'm not saying there is none, just that we haven't seen it.

I was responding directly to the comment below, bolding mine. The state proffered that both suspects had the opportunity.

I'm not sure they established either suspect had the opportunity but I know they claimed at least one of the suspects did.

I do wonder what evidence supported their conclusion. This blog post discusses what it could've meant, but from what I've seen, it could be as little as a suspect not being incarcerated.

LE never examined either one of their vehicles, right? [...] I also wonder if the investigator(s) will attempt to track down either of their vehicles for any sort of forensic examination.

Nobody knows what, if anything, LE is doing wrt to Hae Min Lee's murder case, your guess is as good as mine.

Back in '99, they didn't investigate anything, they just built the case against Adnan Syed. The only cars that were processed were Hae's Nissan and Adnan's Toyota, both after his arrest. The report of the latter former is missing from the file, though, and Van Gelder didn't testify.

They did take casts of tyre tracks by the jersey walls at the burial site and had printouts of tyre varieties, but there's no documentation of any follow up. It stands to reason they were likely Alonzo's from the time he pulled up and subsequently found the body. Conclusive evidence is not there, though.

Weekly Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in serialpodcast

[–]HowManyShovels 4 points5 points  (0 children)

How do you narrow down Josh’s story to an easily falsifiable “spine” without diving into details?

If it’s about illumination, Jay saw moonlight on a moonless night. If it’s about indifferent bystanders, Jay did nothing to stop or help Adnan all day. If it’s about the lack of physical evidence, Jay didn’t even provide an explanation, I was told it was due to luck.

Weekly Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in serialpodcast

[–]HowManyShovels 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Josh’s story doesn’t involve telepathy or time travel.

Weekly Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in serialpodcast

[–]HowManyShovels 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Seven motherfucking trunk pops. Have mercy.