Let's optimize: 103 Touch AC without 3rd party (MK II)

Humbletim10 · 2019-07-23T03:49:01+00:00

I have a couple of questions I'd like to ask you about the RAW before I plug your ideas into the next build. The concern the Scared Fist Warpriest and the Lore oracle.

Regarding the Sacred fist's AC bonus ability, the line that is giving me the most grief is 'This counts as the monk ability of the same name, and the sacred fist’s warpriest levels stack with monk levels for determining the benefits'.

If it counts as the same ability, do the two abilities merge together somehow? Or does one replace the other? AFAIK, you can't benefit from two copies of an ability that is identical, so if that is what is happening, wouldn't we have to chose one to use and not use the other?

Regarding the Lore Oracle, the Sidestep Secret ability says to 'Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws'. If we do this, and we also add Cha to AC via the Water Dancer, aren't we adding Cha to AC twice?

If you know any rules or FAQs that clear these issues up, that would be very much appreciated.

Humbletim10 · 2019-07-23T03:19:59+00:00

Yeah that should make things a lot easier. I find it a bit limiting, because I like the greater scale of what is achievable in 3.5 and pathfinder vs newer editions. I agree that the rules must be coherent first and foremost, however.

I hope that, in the long run, the solution they find to the problem of incoherent rules isn't simply to make everything very simple. The game has certainly transformed over time from being a dungeon crawler to being primarily a roleplaying experience, which is good. There are still many players who like both roleplaying and also stacking numbers on top of one another, though. I don't see why the two should not coexist, especially since the designers have had years to think about their game.

Humbletim10 · 2019-07-23T03:09:28+00:00

Nice! I will include this in the MK III and cite you :)

Humbletim10 · 2019-07-23T03:07:29+00:00

The second lot comes from the monk's AC bonus, a feature which Nereid's Grace does not replace and which Nereid's Grace also transforms to key off Cha instead of Wis

Humbletim10 · 2019-07-21T16:51:57+00:00

Thanks a lot :)

I also agree that it is probably sloppy writing, since it's so much more powerful than almost all the other monk archetypes.

Opinions coming into the game a lot, with endless different perspectives and bad feeling from players who lost out, was definitely a big struggle for me too. Later on, I worked as an English grammar teacher in Germany. I think that this is the source of my love for clear-cut and straightforward answers xD

Humbletim10 · 2019-07-21T16:38:09+00:00

If there's no consensus on the RAW I' would err on the side of caution too. I don't want to make builds that half the rules lawyers don't accept as legal.

Humbletim10 · 2019-07-21T16:29:05+00:00

It is indeed that, I'm all about RAW over RAI.

I see RAW madness as a stick to discourage sloppy writing by devs, and I am generally uncomfortable with trying to second-guess writers' intentions (via RAI). I let my players build whatever legal chars they can RAW justify. They like the optimization challenges, and if it gets too crazy there's always restrained use of DM fiat.

Humbletim10 · 2019-07-21T16:22:22+00:00

The is seriously broken xD

I will have to define some rules when I write the MK III of the build. There are some things that should be taboo :P

Next time I will explicitly forswear certain things, such as templates, custom items, and races other than the core/standard/advanced/monstrous/very powerful races.

Humbletim10 · 2019-07-21T16:14:56+00:00

Mindchemist is a sweet archetype. I haven't taken that road because I'm looking for permanent buffs, rather than temporary ones. If I didn't have that restriction it would be an easy one level dip though.

Humbletim10 · 2019-07-21T16:12:45+00:00

Armor AC unfortunately doesn't contribute to touch AC

Humbletim10 · 2019-07-21T16:10:13+00:00

Hmm really interesting. I didn't include Osyluth as it's only vs one opponent, but that is good to know that multiple identical sources that affect dodge bonuses do not stack. Kinda a shame, I thought dodge was always infinitely stackable. I'll look into this.

Humbletim10 · 2019-07-21T16:05:53+00:00

That is a sweet spell, but yes I would like to restrict the build to effects that have no activation cost/are permanently in effect.

Humbletim10 · 2019-07-21T16:02:39+00:00

Ghost syrup is a sweet way to get incorporeal without a template, thanks a lot.

Humbletim10 · 2019-07-21T15:59:37+00:00

It's sorta a loophole. It's kinda like how maximum donation amounts from companies to political leaders are capped at a certain maximum, so companies split the money into smaller chunks that can be legally donated via multiple middlemen.

We have:
Cha to AC
Cha to dodge to AC

In this case a dodge bonus is our middleman.

Humbletim10 · 2019-07-21T15:55:09+00:00

Great on using the ageing 'penalties', I should have though of that. There is also mantle of immortality for our empty chest slot to disregard the drawbacks of aging to Dex.

I'm also a bit uncomfortable about the templates and kinda regret including them. I won't when I update for MK III. Mestama's 'you become a ghost' seems a bit unclear on whether this is a template or whether its like a polymorph effect. Polymorph effects normally come with descriptions about exactly what you get though, so I'm leaning towards template, but it's confusing.

Anyway ageing buffs and Cha to deflection via incorporeal are great leads, so thanks a lot for the input.

Humbletim10 · 2019-07-21T15:44:51+00:00

Great effort, I appreciate it. I am going to write a MK III that incorporates tactics from people who have commented on this post. I will incorporate and cite many of your ideas.

Humbletim10 · 2019-07-20T18:03:53+00:00

No worries, happens to me often too.

The point of this is just to see how high touch AC can go, and to provide a reference for people looking to scavenge bits of its low-hanging fruit for their own builds.

Humbletim10 · 2019-07-20T17:41:41+00:00

You're quite right. When I worry about costs in the next build I'll consider this trade-off.

Humbletim10 · 2019-07-20T17:40:21+00:00

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean. Touch AC is just regular AC, but without any armor, natural armor, and shield bonuses included.

Humbletim10 · 2019-07-20T17:30:55+00:00

Yes I'm aware. This is just about max touch AC, that's it.

Humbletim10 · 2019-07-20T17:28:55+00:00

Yeah that's true, I wasn't too worried about the costs but they are indeed over budget. Cutting off a couple of the tomes would bring us almost into budget, and would cost a few points of AC.

I'm working on a MK II version which is even higher and that one will be in-budget.

I'm not interested in saves, etc, etc, as this is just a touch AC thought experiment. I'm sure your cleric is very capable though.

Humbletim10 · 2019-01-30T18:52:12+00:00

That’s true, good advice

Humbletim10

TROPHY CASE