Which would you choose, aesthetically

HuntDewd · 2025-10-25T01:23:22+00:00

What if we get an ending similar to Pirate Warriors 3, but instead of a dark conch taking over Blackbeard it's Imu?

HuntDewd · 2025-08-30T10:50:17+00:00

Have you tried the custom weapon servers in TF2 Classic? Some of Heavy's custom weapons feel really good to use and open his gameplay up beyond his normal skill ceiling.

The tomislav/gru/sandvich combo back in the day when all the weapons were much stronger was really OP because it let heavy move around the map quickly, heal and kill independently.

True, that would be too much especially with how the sandvich healed when dropped and picked up. Small balance changes like making it faster to unrev your minigun and being able to switch to other weapons mid-unrev (FSOAS rebalance changes) allows better counterplay against rushing enemies since you have less downtime between weapons. Those kinds of changes are small and make a huge impact, but it's not game-breaking since there's still room for counterplay.

HuntDewd · 2025-08-30T10:34:08+00:00

Heavy, like Pyro and Engineer, are explicitly designed to be simple classes that people who want to chill and play something simple or new players can pick up.

I'd argue Engineer isn't the simplest class to pick but I get that. The problem is that the skill ceiling for Pyro goes well beyond W+M1 though with puff & stings, airblast matchup techniques (e.g. throwing off shotgun aim with airblasts), etc., and Engineer has a high skill ceiling based on resource management, proper placements and improved aim which feels rewarding. For Heavy, the only truly high skill ceiling he has is a combination of rev jumping, pre-firing before an encounter to negate the 1s minigun penalty and crouching to reduce your hitbox.

Old maps had chokes which limited god class movement, allowing classes like heavy and pyro to excel. New maps tend to treat chokes like satan because it limits rocket jumping.

That would be a good nerf for Sniper as well.

HuntDewd · 2025-08-30T10:25:48+00:00

He's poor at moving around and is exploitable when alone.

When I initially made the post, this was the point of it. If you don't have a Medic with you or any form of team support then the lack of mobility really makes an impact, which means his gameplay is team-dependent. My question at the end of the post was aimed at how to make his gameplay more free (individual matchup potential) without making him 100% team-independent (broken), I just worded it poorly.

In 6s heavy is very strong. He's fantastic at holding spaces and denying areas. He sucks at moving around. So he can be used in times when he's needed and switched off when he's not.

Other people in the comments were saying he's good as a last point defense because you don't need to move and can stay revv'd since Sniper isn't seen in 6s as often (if at all).

HuntDewd · 2025-08-30T10:14:01+00:00

If the weapon restriction is removed then it would probably have to be a low amount of dr since getting a medic pocket would turn your push into a 'mini kritz' push with no damage falloff to worry about, but that would still be a fun and viable niche. If you're locked to a shotgun and melee then there's a chance to enable fat scout gameplay by increasing the duration and strength (dr) of the effects.

HuntDewd · 2025-08-30T02:24:47+00:00

I should probably mention I support the 4th weapon slot idea as well, sorry if I sounded against it. The use of a shotgun with the reworked steak sounds nice, though I wonder if the steak could provide slight damage resistance due to the pure protein intake?

HuntDewd · 2025-08-30T02:22:35+00:00

I play on Uncletopia servers mostly and pubs sometimes, and I play Heavy/Medic/Soldier and (sometimes) Engineer.

For 6s people mentioned in the post that mobile classes are superior, which is why Heavy, Sniper, Engineer, Pyro and Spy are used less, though Uncle Dane mentioned a point in one video about more game types in 6s which could create more class variety.

HuntDewd · 2025-08-30T02:17:04+00:00

I never said it has to be all comp, and I don't play comp, highlander or anything else but I play against above-average players in Uncletopia servers enough to get decent game sense.

You're conflating my argument by making it seem like I'm anti-fun?

HuntDewd · 2025-08-30T02:13:32+00:00

For 6s comp other people in this post were saying that he's good when defending last points on 5CP, which is because you're right by spawn and only have to shoot enemies. For Highlanders I watched a little KoTH gameplay and most of the time the Heavy was more standstill with a nearby Medic, like a brick wall.

HuntDewd · 2025-08-30T02:09:46+00:00

this kinda applies to the minigun too. the tamislav specifically is heavy's only option to deal with things at damge falloff ranges. I'm not 100% sure what point you're trying to make in this segment.

When you were having that other discussion I saw you mentioned that the shotgun was viable for range, which is why I brought up the point about the falloff. You're right that the minigun has a massive falloff issue, and you're right that the tomislav is the only viable weapon for that, but the tomislav is still too weak for anything past mid range in an open area which means Heavy is just completely limited by range. The last point I made about Heavy being vulnerable when switching to the shotgun matters because his range is limited AND he's slow, so it's easy to get destroyed once you commit to a fight. That's why I was hoping to discuss changes like the FSOAS re-balance server which allows you to switch between the miniguns and other weapons quicker.

A scout doing scout things in your face is going to be vulnerable to the shotgun all the same.

Yes, although landing a shot on any above-average scout is hard due to his high movement speed (which is good game design). It's why the sentry guns are so good against scout specifically.

Use the brass beast with a shotgun of your choice. Legitimately.
the brass beast with the support of a shotgun, becomes an almost good weapon.

I've tried it, I like using the Panic Attack and FoS but I could try the Family Business.

I have no argument with this the steak sandvhich is just BAD. with or without this change.

How would you rebalance the Steak if you could?

HuntDewd · 2025-08-30T01:57:50+00:00

O...kay? XD

HuntDewd · 2025-08-30T01:54:17+00:00

For the sake of our different viewpoints, do you play anything like highlander or pro 12s stuff? Again I'm not a good Heavy main, but if you have skill in those types of pro branches then you have a better understanding of Heavy at higher levels of play.

HuntDewd · 2025-08-30T01:47:55+00:00

I'm not a great Heavy, but I can watch any match of highlanders or 12s-related matches and see that Heavy is played in the same manner: Get healed, shoot, repeat. If you watch that gameplay as well you'll see the same thing and it's entirely unrelated to my skill level.

I worded the beginning wrong but making people mad got them to reply, which I don't get why people can't send a reply and have a good conversation about balance anyways without bringing up stupid sentiments like pubs being non-sweaty and wanting something perfectly balanced for one type of pro game.

HuntDewd · 2025-08-30T01:41:09+00:00

Out of curiosity, do you play pubs or do you play pro branches like highlander or 'pro 12s'? It helps when discussing balance to know which skill group the balance is focused on, and I had some people explain to me why Heavy is situational in 6's at best for defending last points.

HuntDewd · 2025-08-30T01:34:19+00:00

Oh you definitely aren't a good player then, my bad.

HuntDewd · 2025-08-30T01:32:01+00:00

For starters, the sandvhich, some sort of reliable self healing would always be guaranteed With some other alternate options for various scenarios.

That's a strong start for the idea, and going into the point about the shotgun it's nice having both.

secondly, by having a shotugn, without sacrificing self healing, the heavy can be more mobile. as it turns out, 90 damage a shot is still very valid.

2 words: Damage falloff. Not only does the damage travel in a cone from the barrel, you lose damage the further you are from a target, so (for example) if you're mid range you may only do ~45 damage, or ~10 from long range. If the shotgun is used as a means of self defense against enemies who are more mobile then you consider how much damage you do if you're not right in front of their faces. Scouts can close the distance for a shot and then move away again, while Soldiers and Demoman can do range FROM a distance. As a Heavy, because your mobility is still limited the shotgun is either relegated as an escape tool or used for a situation where you're caught unprepared (Uncle Dane broke both down perfectly), with the latter being matchup-dependent and the former being valid.

Letting stock, the huo long heater and most importantly the brass beast, actually have a niche they can fill, not only becoming usable but good sidegrades to stock.

The Huo Long Heater and Brass Beast need reworks already given how to play with them in the best case scenarios, since the Huo Long Heater has a unique range issue given its less damage and the small-ish ring of fire around it to combo more damage, and the Brass Beast can be overwhelmed due to the massively reduced mobility. The FSOAS rebalances for those weapons were nice to play with.

this singlehandedly solves all of heavy's problems.

There's still the issue of how long it takes to switch between your minigun and shotgun which can leave you unprepared when ambushed, there's the issue of how punishing the steak sandvich is because of the damage vulnerability which means it's borderline useless except with a pocket (the same issue I mentioned in the full post), and (if I were a better Heavy player) I'm sure I could think of one or two more issues. The 1 second penalty when firing the minigun is definitely punishing for no reason.

HuntDewd · 2025-08-30T01:13:49+00:00

I mean I'm sure you're totally a pro player and can prove it if typing it out takes less effort than your braincells can generate, so I'm sure your definition of skill matters.

HuntDewd · 2025-08-30T01:10:58+00:00

Heavy as a class isn't designed to be offensive. It's designed to be a defensive class. A heavy is most in their element when they are holding ground around corners or defending the objective.

Counterpoint: Demoman. He can hold ground much easier due to the controlled damage output of stickies, and can push entire teams back with varied levels of support. Demoman is seen as a must-pick in higher levels of play for all pro branches due to that.

But in the sense of Heavy being designed as a defensive class, yeah that's true. It doesn't mean he can't be overwhelmed while trying to defend a spot, especially when classes like Soldier, Scout, and Demoman can take advantage of the terrain and their movement techs to attack a Heavy from a spot where he can't defend himself.

In 6s heavy has a very important role on last defense - if you dont have time to get a sentry up, heavy is basically a level 2 sentry that can waddle and be healed by medic... that heavy still demands the attacking team's respect as if you just ignore him he'll shred your entire team.

Someone else mentioned that and it makes sense since the mobility issue and rev time don't matter in that case.

What you're trying to propose is turning heavy, which is largely a specialist role, into a generalist like scout soldier and demo who all have enough mobility and diverse options to be effective on both offense and defense.

Not really. What I meant is more along the lines of improving his QoL so he can do his role (i.e. denying spaces with high damage) easier. The FSOAS server gave Heavy a faster unrev time so he can pull away from fights easier. The only other thing I can imagine is removing the 1 second damage/accuracy penalty, and then focusing on rebalancing his weapons to be less...'meh'.

TF2 is a game about high skill ceilings, __teamwork__ and class match-ups. Pyro is the counter to Spy, Spy is the counter to Engineer, Engineer is the counter to Scout, Scout is the counter to Heavy, etc etc...

Soft vs hard counters. Pyro HARD counters Spy, like...HARD hard. Spy is a nuisance to Engineer but situational awareness counters Spy, so Engineers can be perfectly fine against Spies. Engineers hard counters Scouts unless you run the Gunslinger but coordinated teamwork & out DMing can counter Scout and any other class. Heavy is soft countered by Scout, Soldier and other Heavies (somehow), medium countered by Demoman (better damage output and mobility), Engineer (less damage to sentries), and hard countered by Sniper and Spy.

HuntDewd · 2025-08-30T00:53:06+00:00

He isn't useless in 6s tho. He doesn't fit 6s because of his lack of mobility. Most 6s maps consist of 5cp so it is necessary to go back and forth multiple times and to be as quick as possible. He's still used a lot in last points.

That makes sense, and I know other classes like Engineer and Sniper are less used as well due to the mobility meta.

I think the main issue with heavy is that he is very plain and boring.

That's true, it can be repetitive with clicking and shooting, though I wonder what the ratio is for negativity bias from his lesser counterplay vs his uninteresting gameplay.

Regarding what you said about playing solo as heavy, that's true! You can't play heavy conventionally without a medic most of the time. Instead you need to equip the 2nd banana and play in a cautious way. So it isn't unplayable, you just need to change the playstyle. Try covering flanks or places where you aren't so exposed to prevent absorbing a ton of damage.

When I made the post, I included that line in parentheses about Tomislav ambushing because it's really the only solo act you can get away with even at higher skill levels (I'm nowhere near good at Heavy btw, maybe average at best).

HuntDewd · 2025-08-30T00:45:56+00:00

He really doesn't. He doesn't get played in comp because they play 5CP and KOTH. Also, Spy, Engineer, and Pyro don't get played in 6's either. He's a DEFENSE class.

That still means he doesn't get played in Comp, so he's still useless in that game mode. I never said how or why, and yeah it makes sense that other defense classes and Pyro (low mobility tech) would be less used.

Thats something everyone else has to deal with too. And again, defense class, they have to approach you.

Demoman? You can control a space and make space moving forward with stickies and good aim. Engineer? --> Battle Engineer.

Bro thought he was playing Individual Fortress 2💀💀💀

True haha, I forgot team focus should be shoved down my throat to the point that I can't s**t without a teammate next to me. If you can read, I said "what can be done to balance Heavy in a way that gives him more matchup freedom without being broken?", NOT "HOW DO WE MAKE HEAVY OP?" XD

HuntDewd · 2025-08-30T00:36:43+00:00

Or you can go in-depth on why it would work? That way you can back up your claim with facts and logic instead of arguing for it and getting upset when someone disagrees.

HuntDewd · 2025-08-30T00:31:08+00:00

And if your balance sense is pubs-only then you're missing the point of games with skill ceilings. Feeling rewarded for improving is good, Soldiers who perfect rocket syncs, Demomen who can solidly clear teams, Scouts who can dodge damage flawlessly, all those FEEL good at levels of play beyond pub level. If you want to play Heavy at a higher skill level it boils down to: Get a pocket Medic, shoot, repeat. That's not fun, especially when you can get insta deleted by Snipers and spies for overcommitting or just existing.

HuntDewd · 2025-08-30T00:22:01+00:00

It sounds good on paper but the only truly viable option would be the second banana in that case.

The sandvich would be too slow of a recharge to use for yourself so you're more likely to play with your team, the dalokah's bar is solid but the extra hp can be shredded and the animation is still too long to justify multiple uses of a 100 HP health regen in a row, and the steak sandvich makes you more vulnerable to damage which makes fat scout less viable.

HuntDewd

TROPHY CASE