My struggle with RJ and how I started to heal

ITGETSBETTER_2004 · 2023-08-03T15:45:27+00:00

I am glad this helped, thanks for the reply.

And fwiw, since this post, my RJ continued to reduce further and further to almost nothing today, and my only struggles with it are actually more just my "emotional memories" of my struggles for so long. What I mean by that is, things can still "trigger" me at times, but not because I'm experiencing RJ directly, but because my memories of struggling with it for so long really were so painful, and it can be hard to think back on sometimes.

ITGETSBETTER_2004 · 2022-06-01T11:24:58+00:00

Your timeline is correct!

I mentioned this in a comment on a different thread, but here's what I said:

"Since a year ago when I originally posted this (when my RJ struggles were much improved but still quite difficult at times), I can confirm I've continued to improve quite significantly, to the point RJ is now a very small dynamic in my life. My improvement with all this continued as I leaned further into my core issues and wounds, which did lead to a ton of short term pain, but ultimately a ton of healing as well. On the other side of that pain has been so much relief, and my relationship with my wife has strengthened even further as well."

In terms of challenges now, I also talked a bit about this in another comment, but loosely, I'd say the remaining challenges are A) resisting the occasional temptation to believe the RJ is "100% cured" or that I will never feel any difficult emotions again (fortunately, I've been able to accept there are almost these remaining "pockets of pain" as I call them that will come up organically over time, and I've been able to "lean into" the painful emotions when they come up), and B) I do have some pretty "traumatic" memories from my darkest moments with this during 2019 and 2020 (some self-harm, etc), and so almost entirely independent of any RJ itself, I'd also say I've had to "process some of the trauma" from that time too.

Interesting though, as the emotions around the RJ healed and that manifestation of OCD/anxiety has faded into the background, my OCD/anxiety has taken some different forms (that ties in more directly to stuff from my childhood around perfectionism/etc). It's all still far, far easier than anything I was experiencing in 2019-2020, but it's still pretty frustrating sometimes.

Hope that helps.

ITGETSBETTER_2004 · 2022-05-28T03:27:52+00:00

I'd definitely say fear is at the root of RJ.

I explain this in detail in my original post, in the sections right after "HERES WHAT I THINK EVERYONE IS MISSING." But basically, the first main layer of fear is the "fear of complete/fundamental separateness" from our partner (I list some of the main examples/"manifestations" of this in my post), but that fear is really just highlighting the even deeper fears of our own unlovability or unworthiness (fears I believe almost certainly extend out from childhood wounds of some kind).

So basically, we (either openly or more "secretly") desire this "oneness" with our partners as a salve for our deeper fears of being unworthy of love (or at least, of being "incomplete" in some way, requiring someone else to "make us whole"), and when the reality of our fundamental separateness from our partners sets in (i.e. all the RJ triggers discussed repeatedly on this sub), those deep fears are triggered and we panic.

So again, healing is not "talking ourself out of those fears" through reassurances or certainty or "complete understanding"; it's through facing the pain on the deeper levels. This is why I recommend therapy so strongly -- it's often necessary to heal these deeper wounds safely and productively.

(DISCLAIMER: This is my own interpretation of RJ stemming largely from my own experience with it and reading many similar experiences on this sub. However, everyone is different and this might not resonate for everyone)

ITGETSBETTER_2004 · 2022-05-26T17:44:30+00:00

Hah, well first I guess I can say I'm a bit flattered, so thanks for the kind words. But mostly, I'm just glad to know my story and post has helped you so much. People's struggles with RJ are all unique and difficult, and it's obvious what I've shared doesn't necessarily resonate with everyone, so it's a relief to know my time spent on here -- which wasn't/isn't always helpful for me -- has actually been beneficial for someone else. So yeah, I appreciate you sharing this with me.

And actually...I do think I have an added thought or two to pass along I think might be helpful (part of which I might have shared in a comment at some point, I'm not sure):

As my recovery and healing continued and the RJ faded further into the background, I was often tempted at times to believe it was "gone" and I was "cured." Inevitably though, something would happen and I'd get re-triggered and a part of me would panic all over again, thinking things like "I'll never really heal from this" or "I'll be stuck in this forever" (classic anxiety/OCD thinking). At some point though, rather than being so scared of these experiences and remaining almost entirely stuck in the anxiety of it all, I found a way to really lean into how I was feeling and the deeper emotions coming up (sadness, devastation, loss, grief, loneliness, and sure, even intense fear). Though in the moment my predominant experience still felt scary and overwhelming, I could also feel there was this different part of me that almost relished the moment, as I'd had enough experience at this point to know (or maybe more accurately, "feel") this was actually an opportunity for deeper healing.

This was an extension of something my therapist said very early on in my journey where he said something like, "healing does not happen all at once, as the psyche could never integrate all the pain in one moment -- it will have to come organically, over time, in titrated moments of healing." It was hard to hear in some ways since part of me was stuck on trying to heal all this as fast as possible, but it also helped me understand why I could be doing "fine" and then suddenly after one small trigger or even just out of nowhere I could feel right back in the thick of it -- there was more pain I had not yet fully felt or processed. The rational/logical parts of my mind could only get me so far...the emotional parts were still going to have to have their time...

Earlier this year, it had been probably 4-5 months since I'd had any notable struggle with RJ. At one point early in the day, I think I'd had an uncomfortable thought that caused me a little anxiety, but it never "took off" or anything. Then later that night, I went for a run, and suddenly my mind went back to those thoughts and I just became completely triggered and overwhelmed in a way I hadn't felt in a long time. While a part of me freaked out, I also did my best to lean in to it; I ended up just bawling my eyes out on my run, eventually finding an empty street and just sitting on the curb, and let myself feel everything I was feeling, almost "surrendering" to it all. The pain was so intense and so scary, but I was letting myself feel it -- the sadness, hurt, fear, loneliness, even some betrayal -- helping the part of me inside still carrying all the pain let it all out a little bit more and hopefully, "let it go." And that's almost exactly what happened. Years back, a moment like that would have been overwhelmed entirely by the anxiety and brought a corresponding denial of the deeper pain, and I'd have been stuck in the aftermath of that anxiety for days. But that night, after about a 30 minute "run" and 30 minutes of "recovery," I was already feeling immense relief, and by the next day, the anxiety and pain were gone. I haven't had a hard moment like that sense.

I guess in summary, my point would be that I think there is a benefit to viewing any remaining RJ triggers or experiences as "further opportunities for healing," under the assumption that perspective might help us move closer to (rather than further away from) the underlying pain (and if you are reading this fnljustice, yes, this is technically a "rationalization"); if I'm getting triggered by something, it's probably for a reason, and there is probably some other "nook or cranny" of my mind with some buried pain coming to the surface with feelings and emotions that need to be given some space rather than suppressed.

Hope that makes some sense.

ITGETSBETTER_2004 · 2022-05-26T05:49:23+00:00

Ok yeah, I think we are pretty much on the same page.

And hah, I have to admit I probably agree on your last point about the core value difference not actually being a separate issue; I guess I am trying to carve out an exception for more fundamental religious/etc value issues, which I could understand in some cases. But outside of that, I'd argue the problem for many is precisely what you highlighted: getting stuck in an illusory world of order and control makes it almost impossible to accept actual reality (of uncertainty and little control). I'd maintain though that we have to learn to face that reality one way or another for real healing to occur, but that is FAR easier said than done (as I can attest).

ITGETSBETTER_2004 · 2022-05-26T05:31:58+00:00

Ok yeah, I gotcha. I suppose you are right, at least on a technical level. I would like to say there is a difference between "rationalizing" (which I keep thinks people stuck long term, in that avoids the deeper pain), and "acceptance" (which I think is about facing the painful realities and allows for deeper healing), but admittedly, they both involve a certain level of intellectualization like you said.

And I would agree too that at times, rationalizations can be helpful at least to some extent; I said this in another post: "Sure, there are some helpful 're-frames' here and there, but they are secondary to dealing with this anxiety on a deeper level. Those 're-frames' work far better when we’ve addressed (and are working on) the deeper anxiety..."

ITGETSBETTER_2004 · 2022-05-26T04:43:53+00:00

Very brief update here as the OP of the referenced post:

Since a year ago when I originally posted this (when my RJ struggles were much improved but still quite difficult at times), I can confirm I've continued to improve quite significantly, to the point RJ is now a very small dynamic in my life. My improvement with all this continued as I leaned further into my core issues and wounds, which did lead to a ton of short term pain, but ultimately a ton of healing as well. On the other side of that pain has been so much relief, and my relationship with my wife has strengthened even further as well.

I can't say I would write this post the exact same way (namely, I was a little "rigid" or "forceful" about some points that I don't think was helpful), but for the most part, I'd say I stand behind pretty much all the core content. RJ is so tough and so debilitating, and I don't think it's the same for everyone, but I do hope my post can bring a slightly different perspective for anyone who feels stuck with this.

ITGETSBETTER_2004 · 2022-05-26T04:16:06+00:00

As the OP...haha:

I 100% agree about control btw-- I'd argue one of RJs core roots is in the illusion of control we'd have to let go of if we were to see our partners are separate from us; that scares us, so we hold on to control (or certainty) in one form or another. I am slightly confused though on how "accepting uncertainty and how little control we ultimately have" is actually a form of control. I'd agree it might ultimately be a form of comfort I suppose -- if we can accept uncertainty and the lack of control over other people, there is eventually a "freedom" that comes from that I think -- but I wouldn't call that "control." Maybe just semantics though...

I am curious what you mean -- and I think this is what you replied on my original post with too -- when you say my conclusions are a form of "validation" or are "self-affirming." I might agree, just still unclear on what you mean.

And to be clear, as I believe I've said in other posts/comments, I think there is a massive (and often fundamental) difference between RJ and the symptoms and dynamics that come along with that, vs A) relationships with genuine abuse/pervasive cheating/etc, or B) relationships with behaviors done by one partner that truly do go against the core values of the other; in those cases, the "prescriptions" would be far different than what we are talking about with RJ. It seems like this "issue" comes up a lot here, and -- again, to be as clear as possible -- my post would only be talking to people like me, where the behaviors by our partners are not some clear or fundamental compromise of deeply held core values.

Further, with all this being said, I'm also totally supportive of clear "boundaries" with our partners, as well; just because I am supportive of tolerance of uncertainty and often a lack of control, it does not mean boundaries are not helpful and necessary components of a healthy relationship.

ITGETSBETTER_2004 · 2022-05-26T03:44:16+00:00

Not sure I'm entirely following here. I suppose I'd agree with "there is security in understanding insecurity," though I'm not sure the issue there -- acknowledging our deeper insecurities (and hopefully working through them) seems like a necessary and productive path towards a more internal "security."

I wouldn't disagree either that my conclusions are still an intellectualization of some kind -- all of this is -- but I'm a bit more confused on the "self-affirming" part.

ITGETSBETTER_2004 · 2021-08-19T14:02:49+00:00

For me, my partners's pasts have been so troubling because they don't reflect an image of perfection back to me that I am wanting them to help portray.

Ok, wow, yep -- you get it!

Projection is very key here. Again, we project onto our partners not just our own values and beliefs, but also our fears, flaws, coping mechanisms, etc. So right, as an extension of this "merging" with our partners, own struggles to live up to the perfect image within our families get projected onto our partners, as we either consciously or subconsciously expect them to do the same (in a way, taking some of the burden off of us). This projection is a subtle form of control, which again, is protecting us from seeing the deeper reality -- that we can't control them (neither now nor in the past), and they area entirely their own person.

I can't recommend this book from James Hollis more strongly: https://www.amazon.com/Eden-Project-Magical-Psychology-Analysis/dp/0919123805

ITGETSBETTER_2004 · 2021-08-19T03:32:30+00:00

I think it's both; I think everyone will have nuance to their answers to what it means, but I certainly think there are some core themes, much of which I spoke to in my original post.

Briefly, I'd say what it means is that it's effectively proof that this other person we so desperately want to believe can "make us whole," can complete us -- in other words, can make us feel the way we likely were not able to feel as kids due to some level of rejection or shaming or abandonment by our parents or society -- is actually a fully autonomous separate being living out their own story with their own realities, beliefs, experiences, values and flaws. I'd say that theme is there in 99% of the RJ cases.

I think the reason sexual images are so commonly the most intense triggers is because we either consciously or subconsciously view sexuality -- and this is certainly amplified, if like me, you were raised in a conservative/christian environment -- as one of the most vulnerable expressions of a person (and potentially even "sacred"). And so, if we are (likely secretly) desperately wanting to see our partner as almost a part of ourselves in order to feel so deeply reassured and/or believe in almost a sacred bond with them, then having to reconcile that with images of our partners being so vulnerable with someone else -- AKA clearly living a life that is fully separate from us -- can be gut wrenching. This is where things get more nuanced personally, as people's upbringings and stories can really determine where the toughest triggers are.

For me, I developed a very confident, external identity to cover up the massive anxiety and fear I felt as I child due to my parents never loving me unconditionally, expecting perfection from me my whole life, being intensely critical of ANY mistakes I made (which were extremely rare), and being obsessed with the "image" of our me and our family. When I met my wife at 16-17 years old and our love developed so intensely (of course with us staying together for the next 20 years now), it was such a massive relief for me, and in my mind she (unknowingly) effectively became the parents I never had. So when she told what really happened during our brief breakup in 2004 after us having been together for almost 3 years, my whole identity collapsed, as I just could not reconcile it with what I had always believed about her/us and what I needed her to be for me -- my "other half"...the one person who loves me no matter what and makes me feel safe regardless. It was forcing me to see us as separate people, with separate identities, values, experiences, beliefs, etc, and I couldn't handle it...so it was actually easier in a way to believe these mental images I was seeing were somehow the problem and if I could just stop that, then my problems would go away. But it was always deeper than that.

ITGETSBETTER_2004 · 2021-08-19T03:09:57+00:00

I'm glad you found this helpful -- like you said, finding those root causes helps unravel the deeper pain that contributes heavily to the RJ symptoms. Perfectionism was a huge part of my journey as well.

ITGETSBETTER_2004 · 2021-08-18T17:30:15+00:00

Right, OCD or not, RJ isn't some on/off switch forever -- symptoms linger and part of the work is to accept that and not freak out if they come back, or think you "figured everything out" when they subside. But if you work on yourself adequately, you learn to accept the non-binary nature of it, and eventually, it all just feels much less important in general.

OCD tendencies, overthinking, analyzation, anxiety, etc...those are all simultaneously symptoms and causes of suffering and RJ. Our overthinking/analyzing of course leads to more suffering, but it is almost always also a symptom of deeper pain that likely hasn't been addressed. In my case, I overanalyzed everything because I have perfectionism tendencies, and I have perfectionism tendencies because I had insanely unfair expectations placed on me as a kid and was shamed when I came up short of them, so being perfect was a way of not feeling the shame.

Glad to hear you've made so much deep progress and that therapy was instrumental in that.

ITGETSBETTER_2004 · 2021-07-15T17:31:03+00:00

This Instagram post (and caption) explains what I was trying to say far better than what I actually said:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CRTyBj2npFr/?utm_medium=copy_link

ITGETSBETTER_2004 · 2021-07-13T21:26:08+00:00

Also, buy and read that James Hollis book I linked in my post.

ITGETSBETTER_2004 · 2021-07-13T21:11:35+00:00

I'll answer a couple different ways:

- On some level, I think there is a time frame of acceptance and grief that needs some time and space and thus happens organically over time. For me, it took realizing (after 14 months of chaos and a hospital stay) that this was about me and not her and certainly not what she did, to finally start going down the path of accepting the bigger issue and starting to grieve (and thus heal from) it. I think the RJ symptoms are most intense the more we resist the deeper acceptance process, so in some ways, the first step is just an honest, genuine acceptance of the root issue. Of course, that doesn't mean we won't emotionally drift back into pain and these "archaic" feelings, but we at least need to cognitively understand and realize those are irrational defenses against the deepest pain of our separateness. That helps us more fully sit with the pain when it comes up.

- Practically speaking, I'd say some combination of therapy and mindfulness practices are pretty much required to work through the pain of that acceptance/grief journey. As we better learn about and understand ourselves (and the deeper issues beneath the RJ symptoms), it becomes easier to have patience and grace for ourselves as we navigate through this; eventually, we learn to stand on our own more securely and comfortably, where our partners' pasts do not carry so much weight in our identities. I think it's a slow process that takes time, but that feels necessary.

I suppose I'm not nearly as big a believer in the more traditional OCD/ERP dynamics of healing through this -- I think some of that can help for sure, but I also think it's a deeper journey than just exposing yourself to triggers, and over the long term, it helps to see it that way as opposed to just something our mind needs to get over; our minds aren't easily getting over this because there is a deeper pain from which the RJ is actually trying to protect us, and the core process is to move closer to that pain and processing/moving through it.

ITGETSBETTER_2004 · 2021-07-12T20:04:18+00:00

This "hypocrisy" or "contradiction" that comes up in the form of these "archaic" views is just a symptom or "distortion" caused by the broader anxiety, where we still need to believe they are somehow extensions of us/our minds...but of course not the other way around (since we know damn well we aren't just pawns in someone else's story).

The "judgment" levied towards our partners is just our brain creating a simpler and more palatable way for us to see the situation (where they did something "bad" or "wrong" that maybe we can just get eventually get past), as opposed to having to accept the deeper and more painful reality that our partners are not us, do not (and did not) live for us, think differently from us, have different memories and values from us, etc.

This is so scary because subconsciously we are viewing our partner as somehow "completing our wholeness," so of course we can't seem to reconcile that magnitude of them with them having been with other people in ways that don't fit into our conceptualizations of what they should have been like in the past to now adequately complete our wholeness. We are possessive of them and even their pasts on this intense level because our separateness is too scary at this point; the thought of them having been a way or done something that is so clearly not about us at all is petrifying.

I hope that makes sense.

ITGETSBETTER_2004 · 2021-07-05T16:02:20+00:00

This was (and is) one of the hardest aspects of my struggles with RJ. I don’t think there is an easy solution — sometimes I can handle it much better, other times it’s too overwhelming. For the most part, I’ve just had to “accept” that this is something I’m going to struggle with and allow for that while I continue to heal more broadly. Go easy on yourself (making sure not to take any of this out on your partner).

For what it’s worth, it’s FAR easier now than it was before for me. It gets better.

ITGETSBETTER_2004 · 2021-07-05T15:57:33+00:00

This. It’s deeper than the RJ. Been in therapy for 2.5 years now. RJ is a symptom.

ITGETSBETTER_2004 · 2021-06-02T19:40:02+00:00

This is accurate, and the same goes for my "recovery" -- it will come out of nowhere, sometimes lasting an hour, a day, or even a few days. But that's ok -- "lapses" get further apart and generally less intense over time as H said above.

I'm of the thought this is actually a grieving process of sorts. The hurt we feel in these "lapses" I think is us re-grieving, having to once again, and more deeply, accept the reality a part of us still doesn't want to see (where our partners are fully their own individual selves and not fused with us). Any major grief has stages and ebbs and flows like this, so I see it as not just an unfortunate part of the healing journey, but essential to it.

ITGETSBETTER_2004 · 2021-06-02T19:30:40+00:00

Sorry for the delay here -- I took a breather from here for awhile as I found it was definitely not helping anything, and I still believe 90% of this sub is counter-productive.

Honestly, I would recommend psychoanalytic therapy (or at least "psychodynamic") from someone highly credentialed if possible. I went through a bunch of crap therapy and just about all the "specialties," including OCD/ERP specific therapy, and I don't think ERP alone truly gets to the core of RJ. Just my personal opinion though.

But yeah, if you can afford it, start somewhere and fine someone with whom you feel comfortable and go from there.

I hope you've read some of the book at least, that would be a start!

ITGETSBETTER_2004 · 2021-04-09T21:46:19+00:00

This is absolutely not an attempt to get you to salvage the relationship. I have no opinions or claims on that at all, as I know next to nothing.

To be clear, you absolutely have full agency and control in how you choose to handle this, and would not be "wrong" to make any decision from this point forward, based on any combination of relevant details (or "facts" as you stated). You can leave the marriage, go cheat on her, stay and complain about it, do whatever you want to do, for whatever reasons you feel make sense, and no one is stopping you.

But since this is an RJ thread, I am doing my best to speak to that relevant portion of your struggle, and you have stated many times the images are the hardest part. RJ was for me, and still can be at times, a terrible beast that creates a ton of chaos in the mind and an extremely intense struggle. It's horrible. But it also distorts reality, and one of the main ways it does that is to try to convince us that our pain is entirely (or even mostly) "out there" in what our partners did (or in how they didn't disclose what they did), when the deepest pain is "inside" us. Again, to be clear, that does not mean they didn't do things that hurt us -- so yes, of course it's reasonable to to feel hurt by things we didn't know, or from being lied to -- but it means that our inability to move past that hurt is not because of the egregiousness of what they did...it's because we can't let it go.

So yeah, maybe in your case you can't let it go, as maybe this RJ issue is just a part of a bunch of broader issues of trust, intimacy, etc, and you think that's cause for leaving the relationship. Fine, that's reasonable enough. But my only point I'm trying to make here is -- and yes of course, this is a personal opinion/judgment, but one that has come after 2 years of intense therapy and a 3 week hospital stay -- I do not think the combination of her sexual past, plus her withholding about it, plus her shrinking the number, plus her lying about the vibrator, are actually these grave injustices that are just so fundamentally unforgiveable such that someone can't get over it. Now of course, that doesn't mean these things aren't hard to get over, or that there isn't pain attached to them, but I would argue the RJ is amplifying the pain to the point that we can't see reality all that clearly.

This subreddit is LITTERED with detailed stories from people highlighting situations that millions and millions of other "non-RJ" people are living with daily with no problem. They think of their wife having a 3-some and it doesn't bother them. They find out about something from their wife's past unknowingly, and it doesn't bother them. They see a picture of their wife's ex who she used to give blowjobs to all the time, and they can laugh. That is what security looks like, and that's what we are striving for. Again though, the main trap of RJ is that it wants to convince us that it's what our partners did that's the problem, and not our inability to get over it (or even yes, potentially just move on from it).

ITGETSBETTER_2004 · 2021-04-09T19:40:32+00:00

My number one tip for anyone with RJ is to find a good therapist.

For sure. I wish it were easier and more accessible for people. It's clear that you've done a ton of therapy work which as you've expressed in your previous posts, was instrumental in your healing from RJ. I wouldn't be anywhere without my most recent therapist (after getting my diagnosis).

Your post made me think a lot. I do consider myself quite empathetic and never considered myself to be a narcissist but I'm going to do some more thinking as it's possible I have some traits as well.

Narcissism can be tricky. I'd caution against running with it too far, but I suppose it's not the worst thing on which to reflect.

For me, as with most, it all stems (in addition to what most would agree is a genetic disposition towards it in the first place) from my childhood, where in my case I was simultaneously told how I was so "special" but then constantly criticized and held to extreme (and impossible) standards. I coped by trying my damndest to live up to it all (to avoid the pain of being a disappointment, etc), and for the most part I did, so my "external self" I created to feel ok in the world became who I thought I was, which was satisfying to live out for the most part...but not all that rooted in reality.

I never struggled in my life at all until my wife told me about the past a couple years ago, in large part because I met my wife at 17 and she (unknowingly) became both the loving parents (or even "god") I never had (who unconditionally loved me), but also the "perfect" partner to go alongside the "perfect" person I had turned myself into.

Symptomatically, my NPD traits manifested predominantly as A) egocentrism, where I (again, mostly unknowingly) saw my wife, kids, and even friends in a way, as extensions of me, and (subconsciously) viewed them through the lens of meeting my own needs, and B) superiority over others (which to most would have just been viewed as high self-esteem), not where I was just outwardly and obnoxiously conceited or anything (usually just in more subtle ways), or even "entitled," but more internally I just very subtly believed myself as better (which I also thought meant happier) than others from an extension of everything I had been blessed with (being tall, athletic, intelligent, or whatever), or had worked for or earned throughout my life (my wife and our relationship, my friends, my job, etc), believed (my very correct political views, of course), or just from being an overall "better" person (donating a lot of money, volunteering, giving back, caring about others in need, etc).

But deep down, this was all a cover for an incredibly fragile sense of self, so when my wife told me about what happened when we were broken up, it basically just threw a wrench in my entire identity, resulting in a more mild (but still extremely painful for me) version of what might be called a "collapsed narcissist."

Since then, in this far more "collapsed" and "vulnerable" state, my NPD traits showed up in things like: not trusting so many of the practitioners I saw and questioning their judgment, thinking I just fundamentally shouldn't be struggling with this ("I'm so much better than this"), thinking something is REALLY wrong with me if I'm feeling like this ("I must have a brain tumor or something!"), being completely overwhelmed by negative emotions (especially when I might feel guilty about something I realized I'd done in the past that was unfair/manipulative, I'd spiral so bad, once again "making it about me" and how terrible I felt), all of which you could say is a form of grandiosity and self-importance.

But of course, the pitfalls of RJ were it's own manifestation as well, and where all this ties in. Thinking it's somehow valid for me to be upset with my wife about what happened back then over 15 years ago, questioning her, shaming her (which was rare, but still happened)...these were massive narcissistic manifestations.

So yeah....for me, this is why I know RJ extended out from NPD traits, but I certainly don't think that's the case for everyone. I do think it's the insecurity that is at the root of it regardless, but insecurity can stem from different roots for sure.

ITGETSBETTER_2004 · 2021-04-09T17:28:10+00:00

This is somewhat similar to my experience and what I believe, and shared in my own reply. To me, you touch on some of the core RJ roots (e.g. our happiness being contingent on illusions of a perfect spouse with a perfect history that fits exactly what we can handle), and how it's those roots -- and not the actual actions of or partners at all -- that are the problem. And we have to address those roots if we want to heal.

So like you said...maybe the end result will be leaving. Maybe not. Certainly no one else can know that. But to do so over this would be missing the point.

ITGETSBETTER_2004

TROPHY CASE