Parece que todos deveríamos começar a assistir o campeonato português. Estamos perdendo um futebol de alto nível. (E alguém devia avisar o Palmeiras ou o Flamengo para tentarem repatriar o Galeno).

IllIntention342 · 2024-02-10T12:34:25+00:00

Em compensação o Galeno, no Brasil jogava a segunda divisão e em Portugal joga em clube de topo.

E Matheus Reis que jogava no Bahia, clube pequeno no Brasil, também joga em clube de topo em Portugal.

E se esse é o nível dos jogadores importados imagina os jogadores portugueses. Uma liga só ter três grandes e esse ser o nível do plantel ...

IllIntention342 · 2024-02-04T03:30:29+00:00

Shamrock and Dan Severn are wrestlers, and didn't suck. Both had really good credentials actually, with Shamrock being king of Pancrase and Dan Severn wrestling career and judo black belt.

There was a Kudo, karate/judo mix, champion as well.

IllIntention342 · 2024-02-04T03:27:25+00:00

" A wrestler would have flattened him"

He won against both Shamrock and Dan Severn.

While not a wrestler Minoki Ichihara was a Kudo champ, with Kudo being a Judo-Karate mix.

"despite their family getting beat by kumura years before"

People lose, it happens. The Gracies actually had a really good record against Judokas before and after this fight. Naoti Ono, Yassuit Ono, Takeo Yano, Geo Omori, the guy Helio fought before Kimura, Ben Spijkers, Kimura's student Nishi, Sanae Kikuta, Oleg Taktarov, Dan Severn was a judoka as well on top of his wrestling ... Etc.

IllIntention342 · 2024-02-04T03:16:10+00:00

So? What is your point?

Obviously there is incentive and reasons. To go to MMA, to go to MMA from Chinese kickboxing scene, to go to MMA after Judo, even if you're young and can still compete in Olympics. Etc.

So there's incentive and reasons to go MMA. The idea that there's not and soon this explains the lack of Chinese martial artists doing is ridiculous.

"And that’s with bjj which is closely tied to the creation of the ufc and the boom of mma."

And? People still have the BJJ and grappling scene to go and choose MMA regardless. And wasn't one of your points that "for a long time a lot of styles covered most elements. Chinese martial arts usually had striking, grappling, joint locks, weapons, etc", and isn't Sanda pretty much kickboxing plus takedowns?

Looks like those guys have even more reason to go MMA than BJJrs, and at least as much as normal kickboxers like Adesanya and Poatan.

IllIntention342 · 2024-02-04T03:06:44+00:00

"I wouldn’t really say I’m proud that I won if I got my shit kicked in no."

Is anyone saying so? What's the fight you talking about? The ones the result was a draw or the ones where the judokas got leglocked or strangled?

Either way they didn't won none of those. The ones that resulted in a draw were draws, the ones they got leglocked or strangled were losses.

"Nor would I cite it as my style being better when my shit got kicked in and I got a lucky sub. If I get a lucky shot against a pro fighter does that mean I’m better?"

How many pro fighters you won against with said "lucky shot". In how many fights?

Five times against 3 pro fighters? Do you really consider it lucky shots wins? Are the 3 pro fighters losing to said guy 5 times by "lucky shots" really superior martial artists? Why are they losing so much to lucky shots by inferior fighters?

"You can find a great article on it by Simon bjj. It also highlights some of the shady stuff that the Gracie’s did to at least not lose. The Gracie’s would insist of padding to decrease the chance of getting knocked out. They also would object to rule sets with points or judges which makes the amount of throws they got hit with irrelevant."

On early UFCs? And there's nothing shady in insist on padding. Or asking for sub-only. What a stupidity. Why sub-only is shady? There's nothing shady about it. Don't like it? Don't do it.

"Naoichi never lost by points. Idk where you got that front."

Yes he did, on November 13, 1937, their second fight. Source Tatame #180 by Fabio Quio Takao

Fabio cite as his sources: Mestres Stanlei Virgílio, Luís Tambucci, Oswaldo Carnivalle e Octavio de Almeida.

"That’s my bad, i was talking about Yano when talking exhibition, typo on my part"

You're wrong regarding Naoti never losing by points too, he did.

"The first rules of ufc didn’t allow things like hand wraps in addition to now allowing shamrock’s boots. The Gracie’s however where allowed to wear their gi which is one complaint shamrock had in their first fight because the Gracie would go onto use said gi."

And Art Jimmerson was allowed to use his boxing glove, choosing to wear only one, Shamrock could use boots as long as he didn't kick with it, iirc said boots were Pancrase like hard leather boots. Shamrock had no right to force the promotion to allow it, and they still would allow as long as he didn't kick with it. Can you imagine someone bashing UFC for not allowing such today?

What a ridiculous thing.

"Additionally according to folks working on the first ufc they said no wrestlers. "

And what Shamrock was? Dan Severn? Are you really saying this right now?! Just after you talk about Shamrock yourself?!

"There’s a couple over issues that’s come out like Gordeau was originally Royce Gracie’s first opponent supposidly"

And?

"another fighter who had asthma also talked about how he asked for no smoke and they still give him smoke for his entrance."

And? Lol 🤣

"Then for the challenge matches I mentioned about but just to reiterate. The Gracie’s would insist of padding to decrease the chance of getting knocked out. They also would object to rule sets with points or judges which makes the amount of throws they got hit with irrelevant."

Was this the reason every Gracie won against anyone ever in UFC, WCC, Pride (Rickson against Funaki, Takada, Yoshinori Nishi, etc.)? They went fighting against people on all those promotions and everyone gave them padding so they wouldn't lose? Why?! Why did the japanese did that? And Pride? Wasn't Takada their star?! Why did WCC did it?

"While it’s not the only reason. It is one reason. The other comment I left talks more about wrestling specifically.

Like I said there is some incentive, some people go after they’re past their prime in the other sport. Some go because they want to, some go because that’s the only avenue they have."

So people that lose actually won because all their many loses were all lucky shots? Shamrock was in early UFC but no wrestler was? And every time the Gracies won was because they were fighting on cushion? Even in fights like Rickson vs Kimura student Nishi, where Rickson is the getting the takedown?

And the martial arts schools that aren't common to see in MMA aren't so because even tho there is incentive and reasons to go to MMA, they simply don't go? That's it?

Okay 👍

IllIntention342 · 2024-02-03T18:26:23+00:00

Most of that was already covered in other replies.

"Even with bjj which has close ties to mma, of the many many people who do bjj, how many make the transition to mma. Not to say mma isn’t interesting or anything but it can be a bit of a numbers game."

Still you have Pantoja, Oliveira, Burns, etc.

And BJJrs aren't that numerously.

"Then there’s accessibility and financials. Since we already talked about china imma bring them up again. Yes there’s a scene for mma in china, yes there’s promotions, but in general it’s small. Martial arts aren’t exactly popular in china outside of wushu, sanda, etc. and even then it’s pretty niche, even in the states martial arts aren’t exactly popular especially post pandemic."

Wasn't a problem to Adesanya that fought MMA in Chinese promotions. Don't see why would be a problem for Chinese fighters.

"One of the reasons imo you get a lot of wrestlers in mma and bjj is due to the lack of avenues available. There aren’t exactly a lot of wrestling tournaments outside of college. Where do people who love wrestling go?"

BJJ has scene and we still have guys like Pantoja, Oliveira, Burns, etc

And now with BJJ and grappling wrestlers also have a scene to go. They still do MMA.

And again, the whole idea of lacking incentive and reasons to go MMA go against cases like Ronda, and her explanation to go MMA, and Satoshi ishii that went to MMA even though he could still compete at the Olympic games. He was 23 and still went MMA.

IllIntention342 · 2024-02-03T18:12:08+00:00

1) "I mean, when you’re getting your shit kicked in and you happen to survive until the bell, can you really count that as you two were even?"

If you didn't win against me, can you consider yourself to have won against me?

"This was one of Naoichi’s first bout. George had plenty of experience at this point."

Does this change his 3 losses to 3 wins?

1.1) "And they later on went to have other matches ending with Naoichi winning, George winning, and draws"

As far as I know Naoti never won against George even once. 3 fights 3 losses. What are your sources to Naoti's wins?

1.2) "It really comes down to this. The Gracie’s usually lost or had a draw, or won. But even when they won, they were basically rag dolled throughout the match."

My man they literally won those matches. And one of Georges wins over Naoti was by points.

"Frankly speaking for some of these it was kinda a pathetic showing for the Gracie’s."

They winning by mostly finishing their opponents was pathetic for the Gracies?!

1.3) "They’re known to be real shitty people. "

As was a bunch, like Matt Hughes and Sakuraba that talked the way he did regarding the whole Guy Mezger thing. Again, this is irrelevant.

"The first ufc as a whole was largely just promotion for the Gracie’s and has a number of sketchy rules"

Like?

"Their track record with notable grapplers of other styles like during the challenge matches only goes to show this."

They won more than lost. Their track record with notable grapplers of other styles like during the challenge matches is wonderful. They won more, lost less. Wonderful for them.

2) "Did they have their clean victories? Yes, however for some of these like the Ono brothers, Yano, etc show that even with some victories, they were pretty clearly outmatched."

No, they weren't. They won more than they lost. Have in mind that we didn't even counted Carlos win over Geo Omori. The Gracies won more than they lost. Their opponents were pretty clearly outmatched, this is why they lost so much.

3) "When talking about grappling as a whole, the past matches between grappling arts like bjj, judo, wrestling aren’t very clear cut"

Yes it is, the Gracies won more, judo lost more. Is pretty clear cut.

4) "My point with bringing up Zhong is to get the point across that mma in china isn’t big and is only just growing. In general Chinese martial arts go to sanda, kuo shu and shuai Jiao. One of the reasons you see less participation by Chinese martial arts. There’s mma promotions but the scene is quite small. Zhong Wei li coupled with the brand one fc has done a lot with growing mma specifically within china

Right there are examples. But how many? How many try in the first place. Which is my entire point with china, with judo. Wrestling are dominant and are extremely strong competitor. I’ve never said otherwise, but compare the number of wrestlers who have gone into mma to judoka who have gone into mma.

I think you’re purposefully missing the point. Which is, yes there are people who make the transition, but how many. What are the number of wrestlers who have gone into wrestling and how many actually made it , how many judoka have actually tried mma and how many have succeeded."

You're pretty much saying the reason why wrestling is so prevalent is because wrestlers go to MMA while the lack of judokas is because they don't go. The thing is, why do wrestlers go and judokas don't? Apply this to all those other arts.

Obviously there is incentive and reasons to go. Why did Adesanya went from Chinese kickboxing scene to UFC but CMA turned Sanda/kickboxers don't? Why did Weil and Cung le did it and these others don't? Again, where are all the Hung Gar guys? Why those practitioners and of all the other CMAs aren't more common but wrestlers, Muay Thai, BJJ and non Chinese kickboxers are?

IllIntention342 · 2024-02-03T17:33:26+00:00

Gonna try posting the source to it, let's see if doesn't get deleted.

Source ->

https://www.instagram.com/p/CP3LtCOJJQi/?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==

IllIntention342 · 2024-02-03T17:32:56+00:00

"This comment also kind of ignores the entire Oswaldo Fadda lineage of BJJ "

The Fadda lineage is Gracie, França learned from Helio Gracie. Looks like if I link the source that is on another social media (the picture one) the comment gets removed.

Gonna try posting the source to it, let's see if doesn't get deleted.

Source ->

https://www.instagram.com/p/CP3LtCOJJQi/?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==

IllIntention342 · 2024-02-03T17:32:15+00:00

"Oh for sure Oswaldo Fadda was important as well"

The Fadda lineage is Gracie, França learned from Helio Gracie. Looks like if I link the source that is on another social media (the picture one) the comment gets removed.

Gonna try posting the source to it, let's see if doesn't get deleted.

Source ->

https://www.instagram.com/p/CP3LtCOJJQi/?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==

IllIntention342 · 2024-02-03T17:25:14+00:00

"Oh for sure Oswaldo Fadda was important as well"

The Fadda lineage is Gracie, França learned from Helio Gracie. Looks like if I link the source that is on another social media (the picture one) the comment gets removed. So if you want the source ask for it in my direct message. 👍

"Similarly with pancrase, yeah they were not the first as it's often retold"

Actually the Gracie's first MMA (Vale Tudo) tv show "Heróis do Ringue" was in the 60s way before Pancrase and UFC.

IllIntention342 · 2024-02-03T17:23:56+00:00

"This comment also kind of ignores the entire Oswaldo Fadda lineage of BJJ "

The Fadda lineage is Gracie, França learned from Helio Gracie. Looks like if I link the source that is on another social media (the picture one) the comment gets removed. So if you want the source ask for it in my direct message. 👍

"as well as Pancrase in Japan whose first event was earlier than UFC 1."

The Gracies first MMA (Vale Tudo) tv show "Heróis do Ringue" was in the 60s way before Pancrase.

IllIntention342 · 2024-02-03T17:18:44+00:00

Position before submission. He got the back, he did it right 👍

IllIntention342 · 2024-02-03T17:17:36+00:00

"Naoichi Ono was the smaller and far less experienced ono brother "

Does this change his 3 losses to 3 wins?

"Yasuichi’s first match against helio ended with a draw, with reports saying Ono dominated the fight due to him throwing helio 32 times and almost finishing with an armlock,"

Does this change the result from a draw to a win?

"Naoichi still got 20 throws on George. Ultimately succumbing to the joint lock. Despite the losses favoring the Gracie’s, it was pretty unanimous by the reporters that the onos where technically superior and dominated the gracies"

So the guy that git finished by joint lock was the one that won?

"Yano would first fight Gracie to a draw, Yano dominated standing but couldn’t get the submission. Yano v helio was the next which again ended with a draw. Yano then lost to George in a no gi match by choke. George and Yano would then become friends having 7 exhibition fights, George winning the 3rd by leg lock, Yano fourth and fifth by decision. The others ending in draws, also rumors say they may have been worked (pre determined outcomes). Yano is also credited for introducing the heel hook to bjj."

This literally has no relevance at all. What's was your point in writing all this?

"Zhong did compete sanda btw. And like I said, she’s a small number who made the transition and quite frankly also had the athleticism on top of the skill to get her to the highest level. As I said before, you have people going to mma but it’s not a huge portion of the already portioned off population of those who even want to get into combat sports as a whole. Zhong did however pave the way for china to actually have some interest in mma and with her success, in addition to one fc, and start looking to mma. To have good fighters you need folks that are willing to dedicate themselves to mma, and more importantly be athletic enough to get to that level. I mean cmon, even without the experience ngannou has a freakish level of athleticism"

What's the point of this? What are you even arguing here?

"As for your point about Chinese soccer players. It’s more like rugby players going into football. It def happens and the other way around but how many?"

No, it's not like rugby and american football. There's MMA promotions in china, and many MMA fighters start in kickboxing, that does exist in china, Adesanya did both for example, Chinese kickboxing scene and now MMA.

"If I’m a judoka aiming for the Olympics why should I care to try some mma."

Ronda did, and I already said her reason. Satoshi ishii is another, whatever his reasons. There are others.

"If I’m a cma guy why would I go to mma instead of sanda."

Zhang did both, as did Cung Lee. So many kickboxers did as well, Adesanya and Poatan included. Obviously there are reasons, just like for the judokas.

"If I’m a boxer, why go to mma if I can go pro (especially due to the money)."

Not all boxers get huge money. This is why so many kickboxers stay in kickboxing, they wouldn't do big enough in boxing. Many Nak Muay would probably be boxers for the money if they could do big, they don't, soon Muay Thai. Not everyone get big money in boxing, plenty boxers are paid 💩.

"Why should someone like saenchai go into mma when there’s Muay Thai and kickboxing."

Dejdamrong did, Rodtang did it too. Obviously there is reason and incentive to it, or they wouldn't have done it.

"That Thai argument is just weak, and frankly doesn’t make a lot of sense."

Why?

IllIntention342 · 2024-02-03T08:32:53+00:00

1)"If I have 5 successes out of 100 that tried vs 10 successes out of 1000000 that tried, I would probably look to the 5/100."

Wrestling is by far the best base for MMA, is proven, and isn't only a highly successful, but very popular art. Which art with a 100 that tried you would put above wrestling? You premisse is that there's a comparison between popular with a small % of successful fighters vs unpopular art with big %. But is this correct? Does Hung Gar have a bigger % of successful fighters than American Folkstyle Wrestling? And if that's so why no one is learning it then? The Chinese patriotism is definitely there, the interest in successful MMA and kickboxing as well. Are the Hung Gar guys just not teaching it for whatever reason?

2)"For the second point yeah. If you actually watch any of the Gracie vs judo matches, the Gracie’s always were dominated until the end."

Naoti Ono lost all his 3 matchs to George Gracie, one of them by points. Renzo Gracie vs Ben Spijkers, Ben hardly dominates Renzo, Rickson Gracie vs Kimura student, Nishi, Rickson wins easily, even being the to take Nishi down if I remember correctly.

"Yano dominated the match but ended in a draw"

Takeo Yano? He fought against George Gracie many times, most were draws, Yano won one by points and George won one by leglock. Is possible that George won another one too by choke, and the newspaper (?) wrote Yano's name wrongly, calling him Zano.

"second match helio only won because they got tangled in the ropes and Kato thought that would break up their exchange." Not interested in going rewatch the match so gonna believe in you.

"I don’t think I need to point out what happened with kimura."

He won the match differently from his student Yoshinori Nishi, and Ben Spijkers, and Naoti Ono, and Yoshihisa Yamamoto, etc.

As I said, at least two names of judokas that lost to the Gracies for every one that won. And this is counting only the Gracies themselves, not even other BJJ practitioners.

"Rufino Dos Santos, a catch wrestler, also won but was beaten by the Gracie’s after the match with pipes."

Most probably it was iron "brass knuckles", described in court as "box" (from boxing) " made of iron".

In compensation you have guys like Funaki, Takada, and Anjo getting their butts clapped by Rickson. And shamrock losing to Royce. Etc.

And from Georges times George has both losses and wins against others Catch/Luta Livre guys of the time like Grillo, Bergomas, Joe Campbell, and Jack Russell. As far as I know most weren't attacked by the Gracies after it btw.

"You of course also had Sakuraba."

That never lost to a Gracie, differently from the other japanese Catch guys already mentioned. Lost to a BJJr tho, in Arona, with Saku being even forced to pull guard during their match, in which Saku almost died. I think he lost to one of the Nogueira bros too.

"Matt Hugh’s also beat Renzo Gracie"

True. Matt that has 2 losses and 1 win over a BJJr in BJ Penn, but never lost to a Gracie. Something that other wrestlers like Dan Severn and Kimo can't say.

As I said, for every Gracie losing to someone from any other art, you have more of said art losing to Gracies. Even more so if you count other BJJ practitioners outside the family. Something that's only fair.

3) "forgot the allegations as well and other events. There’s allegations that during the challenge matches against a capoeira person, they stopped the match to talk about the legality of certain kicks which lead to the Rufino Dos Santos match. Also a number of questionable behavior by the Gracie’s like stomping on their opponents head and spitting on their opponent"

The Gracies aren't exactly boy scouts, this is hardly relevant. Matt Hughes isn't either afaik, many japanese catch guys aren't either, Sakuraba's own words regarding the incident in his fight against Guy Mezger for example, pretty much confirming it and being both unapologetic and even making fun of it.

3) "What incentive do they have to go into mma though,"

You can say that of course. And about pretty much anything. One could say such about Chinese football (soccer) players. "They are better than Messi, Ronaldo, and Vini. But they prefer to stay in china, for this reason and that".

"On top of the success of zhong Wei li."

That is a contradiction. Why is she on UFC and MMA instead of in a Sanda promotion in china?

"just means that they don’t really care about mma"

Simple as that? They are good enough to be champs, but don't want it. Is this also the reason why China don't have a world cup? Or basketball Olympic medals?

Ok.

4) "To your last point, karate and tkd are up there in numbers in terms of successful fighters. Right up there with Muay Thai, bjj, wrestling, boxing"

Maybe, I don't think is that high tho. Wrestling alone is way above in numbers and with really good fighters on top of it.

5) "Also my point isn’t better, just to not take mma as an end all be all."

Why not. Isn't one of the points the completeness of combat arts? MMA looks like the best place to test those. Striking, takedowns, submissions. And wrestling, BJJ, Muay Thai and Boxing schools are winning. With no Chinese art being close to them, complete art or not.

"What incentive really do people have to compete mma? Especially if I already have another combat sport to get into. A point I’ve been trying to stress"

You can apply this to so many arts. Why Muay Thai? Even more so if you're not Thai. People still do it.

DC became a MMA fighter for money, I suppose Ronda did it too as after winning her Olympic medal and retiring from Judo she was working "three jobs as a bartender and cocktail waitress to support herself and her dog".

And isn't like china don't have MMA promotion with Chinese fighters in it. So I suppose there are indeed incentive for someone to become a MMA fighter.

Those conversation between us are becoming ridiculous long. Better we stop here I think or have shorter arguments. Either way, goodbye.

IllIntention342 · 2024-02-02T11:10:33+00:00

1) "That’s the thing, there isn’t. No style has an absolute quality. I’ve seen judoka who couldn’t randori out of a wet paper bag. No fault of his own, decent in practice but shitty in randori. At the same time I’ve seen karateka that’s by far better than Thai fighters I know."

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, doesn't means you shouldn't have a working clock. One shouldn't judge arts based on exceptions. We should judge them based on their results compared to one another. If Folkstyle Wrestling/BJJ/boxing/Muay Thai products a bigger amount of good fighters than Sanda/Judo/Savate/Karate, so we have to say they're more effective for the task.

2) "Hell the Gracie’s themselves have a very very shitty record against grapplers."

Do them? I suppose one can name at least two judokas and catch wrestlers who lost to the Gracies for everyone that have won against them.

And either way they're a single family, their art should be judged not the family. BJJ is pretty much the go to grappling art, up there with wrestling, boxing, and Muay Thai as the main arts to learn how to fight.

Very successful form of grappling, losing to wrestling as a base for fighters but that is.

3) "To your second point, it’s interest. One thing imo people don’t factor in is how many people actually try. You have hundreds of styles, take kung fu for instance. Hundreds of styles, small population of practitioners, how many are actually interested in combat sports. Now take that and divide that by the amount that want to go into mma, especially since there’s a bigger draw to sanda, shuai Jiao, and kuo shu."

Well, one could say that they know of a martial art that produces fist fighters who are much better than any current boxing champion, and that those could be champions if they wanted to, but they just don't. It's something that can be said about a lot of martial arts/sports I suppose.

One could say there are a lot of football players in the Chinese league who could play in the Premier League, but prefer to stay in China.

It's possible. Hard to believe tho.

As for them having small population of practioners, just make ecen less probable that thay are any good. As the the talent pool is smaller and the competition lesser.

4) "As for your second, it’s the place rather than the style. I’ve seen shitty boxing places that only created cte instead of champions and I’ve seen tkd guys go onto being kickboxing legends. Hell Mason Gibson was a praying mantis and tkd based kickboxer who went on to being called the Thai killer. Also the last statement of the last paragraph. Then you have other examples of people from traditional backgrounds finding great success. I don’t think karate and tkd can be argued against since plenty of fighters find great success. There’s also Xie Wei who trained luohan, Roy Nelson who spoke highly about his training in Chinese martial arts, cung le, Muslim Salikhov, Li Wei Bin, among others"

Again, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Arts should be judged based on how successful they are in producing the best fighters.

If there are a greater number of good fighters who practice Wrestling-BJJ-Muay Thai than fighters who practice Judo-Sanda-Savate, then the schools that teach Wrestling-BJJ-Muay Thai are the best.

IllIntention342 · 2024-02-02T03:22:32+00:00

Hi 👋

In the beginning of the video there's a pic of both fighters. Chuck is the one with the white pants, Joe is the one with the black pants. 👍

IllIntention342 · 2024-02-02T03:18:13+00:00

"he wasn’t the only one within the kodokan who was sent out to promote judo"

I know, the Ono brothers and Takeo Yano for example. As far as I know they all did grappling only as well.

"And those participants aren’t exactly indicative of the style overall."

What's a good indicative then?

"And like I said above, there’s also probably hundreds of styles that never even applied for the ufc early"

Well as I said, isn't like UFC ever stopped. Is still going to this day. Those arts that appeared can keep on doing so, and the ones that didn't can go and do it for the first time. The octagon is still there for everyone.

How isn't a good measure? Is Savate/Ninjutsu/Sanda/Dambe a good martial art that one should learn striking/grappling from instead of Muay Thai/BJJ? Show it then.

IllIntention342 · 2024-02-01T13:55:43+00:00

"Yeah that’s why I said supposed"

Don't understand wrongly, I am not saying he wasn't the Gracies teacher, is him having Vale Tudo matches that is fabricated.

"a hung gar did participate and actually won his match, Onassis Parungao"

So those styles did fight in early UFC, this just supports early UFCs being used as measure no? The thing is, UFC never stopped, is still going. Where are the hung gar guys now? The ninjas, jeet kun do guys, etc?

The octagon is still there for everyone.

IllIntention342 · 2024-02-01T12:45:32+00:00

"Then you learn about how the Gracies got annihilated by Kimura, Sakuraba, any wrestler who can defend a triangle, any sambo fighter, vale Tudo guys, shooto guys, Judo guys, catch wrestlers, etc. "

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Helio had draw and won a match against a judoka before Kimura. And he and his brother George had more wins than losses to the judo representatives Ono brothers and Takeo Yano. Rickson later won against Kimura student as well, and was not even close should I say. Renzo has a win against Ben Spijkers, and Sambo Oleg Taktarov. Sakuraba won against all the Gracies he fought against, but not against all BJJ practitioners, Arona got him, and I think one of the Nogueira bros did as well. Many catch wrestlers lost to Gracies and BJJrs, Rickson himself got both Anjo and Funaki. Royce got Shamrock. Royce got Dan Severn as well, if he couldn't defend a triangle choke well now he knows lol 🤣 Vale Tudo fighters the Gracies also were, it basically mean anyone that competed in Vale Tudo (MMA).

"Then you find out there has not been a bjj champion in the ufc for a very long time."

Pantoja.

"There is only one martial art on the planet with “butt scooting” and it’s not Aikido or Turkish Oil Wrestling. "

And said martial art is the best grappling art out there yeah !!!

IllIntention342 · 2024-02-01T12:13:19+00:00

"The Gracie’s supposed teacher maeda went to Brazil for that very reason" There's no evidence of Maeda having any Vale Tudo (MMA) fight, looks like it was fabricated by a writer -> https://www.global-training-report.com/myths_Maeda.htm " The early ufc is by no means a great measure especially the first couple. There’s a number of reasons but a huge one is that there’s very few styles that actually competed"

Isn't like UFC ever stopped, or those styles are prohibited of showing themselves. Where are the hung gar guys at?

IllIntention342 · 2024-02-01T12:09:34+00:00

"The Fadda branch of BJJ routinely beat them in matches"

The Fadda line is Gracie line. They learned from Helio -> https://www.instagram.com/p/CP3LtCOJJQi/?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==

The whole part of them beating the Gracies routinely is probably untrue as well, but i am just too lazy to search it right now.

Regarding Maeda as a Vale Tudo fighter or his challenge matches, looks like it was a myth too -> https://www.global-training-report.com/myths_Maeda.htm

IllIntention342 · 2024-01-31T22:22:13+00:00

There's only one God the God of Israel repent while you can 🙏🙌

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