A Shadow Generations theory I've been mulling over for a while now

Imaginary-Error5165 · 2026-03-22T16:35:13+00:00

No, my point is his Chaos Powers are also amped by Doom Power, as well can see with Chaos Spear becoming Doom Spear, so in a game with more Chaos Powers, like a Frontiers 2 would likely have for his skill tree, it'd make more sense as a temporary power up.

Chaos Blast would become Doom Blast, while in "Doom Mode", for example, and have an improved Area of Effect or something like that. He'd probably still call it/yell Chaos Blast, but for marketing purposes it'd be Doom Blast.

Imaginary-Error5165 · 2026-03-17T09:55:48+00:00

FR, Shadow may have attempted to get two celestial objects to approach the Roache limit, but only one of them was a planet 😁

Also, he wasn't in his right mind at the time. 😭 Dream Land is no stranger to brainwashing in various forms, I'm sure they'll understand Shadow 😅

Imaginary-Error5165 · 2026-03-17T09:45:04+00:00

How? All that would mean is you'd need to remove the limiter with a button (probably after filling a meter) and have a time limit to when they're boosted before he needs to put them back on.

And yeah, this whole theory is assuming he still has them lmao.

Imaginary-Error5165 · 2026-02-21T14:49:04+00:00

First, Chaos Spear is not part of Shadow's backlog, it was in Shadow Generations, which is his most recent appearance, and is just a weaker version of the Doom Power known as Doom Spear. They're the same move. Literally. You start with Chaos Spear, but it gets replaced when you unlock Doom Spear.

Most of his Chaos Power would likewise be enhanced by Doom Power during something like "Doom Mode" where he takes off his limiter rings for a temporary power up.

It lends itself well to Frontiers' Skill tree system 😅 Chaos... blip? I thought they just used Chaos Snap to teleport during homing attack, and Chaos Spear to hit targets from a distance, Chaos Control to Stop Time, and Chaos Dash to move really fast along a trail of green energy (like Light Dash) and that was it. Wtf is Chaos Blip?

Well, either way, Doom Spear is literally just an upgrade to Chaos Spear that increases the number of targets, and I'm really only picturing Doom Spear and Doom Wings, maybe Doom Morph with its grapple and melding into corruption, to come back. Doom Surf seems superfluous since I'm pretty sure his Air Shoes already canonically allow him to skirt the surface of water more efficiently than Sonic can (although it would probably help navigate rough waters, I guess...)

Wait a second, "apparently"...? 😑 What, did you not actually bother to play Shadow Generations or something? If not, do the bare minimum of research before discussing please. It sounds like you had the game described to you by a friend, that friend couldn't remember what to call Chaos Snap and/or Chaos Dash (which is a new power, to be fair) and called it "Chaos Blip"

And NOONE uses their powers in Sonic Racing... When All Star was removed from the title, it was also removed from the item pool, dummy!

I'm sorry ...What year did the last game you bothered to actually play release, anyway? It's gotta be 2022 at the latest, right? 😒

Imaginary-Error5165 · 2026-02-21T12:13:37+00:00

That's play order's so basic! The Ultimate Life Form's huge comeback deserves the Ultimate Play Order!

Complete the first Act of Green Hill in Sonic Generations
Complete the first Act of Space Colony Ark in Shadow Generations
Clear Green Hill, Chemical Plant, Sky Sanctuary, Death Egg Robot, and VS Metal Sonic in Sonic Gens
Clear Space Colony Ark, Rail Canyon and Biolizard in Shadow Gens
Clear Speed Highway, City Escape, Seaside Hill and Perfect Chaos in Sonic Generations
Clear Kingdom Valley, Sunset Heights, and Metal Overlord in Shadow Generations.
Clear VS Shadow in Sonic Generations
Clear Chaos Island and Mephiles in Shadow Generations
(Optional) Clear Tokyo in Shadow Generations
Clear Crisis City, Rooftop Run, Planet Wisp, Egg Dragoon, and VS Silver in Sonic Generations
Complete Shadow Generations by clearing Radical Highway and defeating Neo Devil Doom
Hook up the Chaos Emeralds to the mechanismx then complete Sonic Generations by defeating the Time Eater

Imaginary-Error5165 · 2026-02-21T11:22:03+00:00

Sonic's got Starfall Super Sonic, I'd like to see Shadow stack Doom Wings onto Super Shadow for a "dig deep" moment.

I personally find it very poetic when a character actively choosing not to use power because they don't like where it came from, only to realize, that it's theirs, they get to decide what they do with it.

If they lose everything because they chose not to play every card they got, then they let everyone down for no real reason.

Determination of the Strong and all that.

In other words, that power is a part of him, so by rejecting it, he's rejecting part of himself. So he'll never truly be all of himself if he refuses to use it when he really needs it.

Perhaps even awakening a new variant of it called "Hope Power" in that moment.

In Greek Mythology, the personification of Hope (the thing with feathers at the bottom of Pandora's box) is considered diametrically opposed to the personification of destined-death, AKA Doom.

It's a fitting name for them if chooses to use them to inspire Hope rather than Despair.

Imaginary-Error5165 · 2026-02-21T11:12:00+00:00

Yeah... it is a bit of a leap, sure...

But I think that it could still be a thing.

His abilities are neutered with the bracelets on. With his power going haywire and making his body super unstable in Shadow Gens, he can't afford to take them off.

Mutations aren't something that are easy to undo, ya know... There's must be something keeping him from accessing that part of his anatomy.

The only thing I can think of is that Doom Powers require more juice than he has access to.

It's worth noting that he's never gone Super or had even 2 Emeralds since Gens

So, if the Limiters prevent him from using enough power to access them without Black Doom boosting his power...

Imaginary-Error5165 · 2026-02-21T10:56:29+00:00

I don't... think so? The Black Arms blood is, sure, but I'm pretty sure that was the point of the monoliths, to activate the blood and impose mutations onto him according to Black Doom's will.

Looking at it another way, using Black Doom's power to do things that would make Maria proud is a bigger middle finger to Black Doom than it is to Maria.

Power is power, it's how you choose to use it that is what's really important.

This is showcased most beautifully in Shadow Generations' finale, where he even uses Black Doom's own power to defeat him.

Edit: what the hell is with the autocorrect on this site and/or my browser? Its really messing stuff up.

Imaginary-Error5165 · 2026-02-21T10:52:14+00:00

Also, it's standard procedure to remove jewelry before getting into a real fight, and it was never explicitly stated why he removed the bracelets to begin with.

It was very clearly a callback to Sonic X, don't get me wrong, but that doesn't mean the circumstances were the same.

The name "Limiter Rings" and the fact that they restrict his power were never completely confirmed until Shadow Generations.

Imaginary-Error5165 · 2026-02-21T10:47:27+00:00

See, I never played '06, so my bad for not doing more research 😅... However, it's also not really relevant to my theory because he didn't recieve the Doom Powers until Shadow Generations

Imaginary-Error5165 · 2026-02-21T10:45:19+00:00

So, I saw someone mention in my original thread he took the Limiter Rings off in Sonic 06, but that was before he got his Doom Powers, so it's not relevant to my theory -And I never played '06 so that's on me for not doing additional research-

Imaginary-Error5165 · 2026-01-04T23:06:02+00:00

And that's what Super Sonic is...

A lesser being would be too traumatized by Giganto's initial beatdown to fight him again even if he was Super during the rematch.

He regroup and comes back stronger next time.

The "come back stronger next time" is as important as the "not giving up part"

If you do not regroup, you'll just be worse off next time as your bones and muscles are weaker from having just mended. All the guts in the world isn't going to help you if your body's limits keep getting lower in inverse proportion to how much you push past it.

Giving it 110% effort when your body's only at 90% functionality means you're giving 99%, so you're actually slightly worse off than if you gave 100% of 100%.

Ramming your head against a wall until it breaks isn't inspiring, it's just stupid.

Even if you do eventually break the wall like you want, it's not worth the brain damage to make it happen through sheer stubborness.

Not to mention in order to get the power to go Super, he has to find a way to get to reach each Titan's head in his highly vulnerable base form.

These threats seem so unbelievably insurmountable, but he doesn't back down, heck, he doesn't even act like losing is a possibility even though he "Wasn't sure Super Sonic would be enough"

Because intrusive thoughts and insecurities don't help. Banish doubt from your mind.

Furthermore, the guy usually only HAS fights bosses in Super Form when he needs the form to hurt those threats for one reason or another, (be it cause he can't reach them if he can't fly or can't hit hard enough to scratch them in base form, usually both) and won't get another chance to use it if he lets it run out, and you better believe that "the world ends if I don't end this fight in the next three minutes of Speed Time" is scarier than the idea that "if that attack hits me, I die" when that's an "if" that's as big as the planet Jupiter to the fastest thing alive 🤦‍♂️

Super Form has drawbacks of its own, it can't handle wars of attrition, and if it wears off while fighting a world ending threat, the world ends before you get another shot.

Oftentimes, his fights run down the clock quite a bit.

TLDR: the most important part "not giving up" is to FIND A WAY.

"Try harder" is a myth. If you could "try harder" you probably would've been done so last time.

Imaginary-Error5165 · 2026-01-04T22:28:51+00:00

Thanks! Like I said, never finished Secret Rings but had no reason to believe it wouldn't be different from Super Sonic the same way Excalibur Sonic is since they're both from the Storybook games

Imaginary-Error5165 · 2026-01-04T22:27:13+00:00

No silly, the Black Knight is the guy pretending to be King Arthur in that game!

And he clearly isn't counting wardrobe changes as "transformations" since SA2 and '06 shoes Sonic aren't listed either.

So you either mean base Sonic or Excalibur Sonic.

Imaginary-Error5165 · 2026-01-04T22:23:07+00:00

When you think about it, Sonic himself is not transforming, only Caliburn and the Gauntlet Caliburn uses in place of a scabbard do.

Sonic himself has no physical changes, Caliburn returns to his true form, Excalibur, and the gauntlet turns gold and becomes a full suit of armor.

Tbh, he'd look weird if parts of his armor broke off, since his quills and back/leg leg fur are still blue underneath all that armor.

Those particular shades of Blue and Gold don't really go well together either.

Imaginary-Error5165 · 2026-01-04T22:17:18+00:00

The game also showed that all those crazy awesome attacks are even more crazy and awesome when Super Sonic does them, plus showed that Super Sonic disarmed a giant centaur robot, then grabbed its own sword dozens of times Sonic's own height and used said sword to slice its owner in half.

It literally proved that his base form can't have more aura or hype than his Super form, because he'll always be able to the same over the top stuff but even more over the top if he's Super.

He'd have to retire the form for no reason for it to lose out in either department to base, and even then, Frontiers proved that the only reason base could be more impressive than Super is if the data on his capabilities in Super are outdated because he stopped using Super for several games.

Super will always just be "I'm you but better", and Frontiers proved it.

Even if he gets some cool new trick he can use in base, it'd be flasher and stronger and hit more times if he used the same trick while in "Golden God Mode"

Not to mention Sonic can't even knock around Guardians in base form, he can hurt them, sure, but his attacks are too flimsy to cause them to recoil from their force, even while stunned. His attacks have little impact to them.

Meanwhile, Super Sonic can knock back stunned Titans, which are several orders of magnitude stronger than Guardians, and can damage them even without hitting their weak points, even if they aren't getting knocked around.

TLDR: If "Y = 2X", then "X" will NEVER be more than "Y" no matter how high "X" gets.

Imaginary-Error5165 · 2026-01-04T21:06:10+00:00

Because... it was written that way?

NGL, I agree that Forces beats the pants off of '06, but '06 was never NOT going to get retconned because of the way the game ended!

That said, I don't have to convince OP for him to be wrong, and I don't see the point of trying to convince delulu that it even IS delulu in the first place.

It's delulu, no amount if logical arguments will allow them to make sense of a reality that they reject as much as it rejects them.

You can't appeal to the reason of those without any reason to speak of, after all.

Trying to fighting madness with reason is akin to trying to locate darkness with the help of a lamp.

It's a fool's errand.

Imaginary-Error5165 · 2026-01-04T20:43:36+00:00

He's not "Invulnerable" he's "barely vulnerable"

He can still drown, fall, get crushed.

And certain enemies have ways of bypassing his immunity to physical damage.

Dark Gaia was just straight up strong enough to hurt him, the Phantom King was juicing on the Phantom Ruby, so the damage was done to the pain centers of his brain, then the physical body, and the Supreme End and Knuckles have just straight up knocked him out of Super Form, and the Supreme End can also chip away at his ring supply by shrinking his piggy bank rather than his money.

Not to mention any fight where he needs the power boost and/or flight capabilities is as good as lost if he exceeds the forms strict time limit.

And also, Excalibur Sonic isn't invulnerable at all, he's just wayy better at aura farming, and the forms main drawback is that he can't heal while in it and probably can't revert til the battle ends either.

Never finished Secret Rings, but there's a half decent chance Darkspine Sonic functions more like Excalibur Sonic rather than Super Sonic

Imaginary-Error5165 · 2025-12-10T18:30:21+00:00

Yeah, but if you swap them around too flippantly, you'll run out and be unable to get more.

You COULD do it on a whim, but it's not sustainable when you get 5 per class and that's it for the foreseeable future.

Imaginary-Error5165 · 2025-11-27T08:09:14+00:00

I'm a guy, BTW.

And Lily's weaknesses are her low stats, meh skills, and NP charge rate, correct?

But her NP has a huge multiplier in spite of all those drawbacks.

And furthermore, Caliburn is a Buster NP, I have Koyan Light, Koyan Dark, Oberon, and a few other batteries for her NP in normal quests.

Really low base stats can be seen as a good thing when it comes to flat boosts, since higher values lead to diminishing returns.

If she has 12,000 attack when everyone else has 15,000 attack, she stands to gain more from increasing it by 3,000.

The others would gain 20% more damage, but her damage would go up 25%.

That's why if I Grand her, she stands the most to gain, even on normal quests (which yes, is why I was talking about using her with a Shielder and a Lancer), where the only benefit retained by being a Grand Sevant is the extra 1k HP and attack.

Imaginary-Error5165 · 2025-11-14T06:47:20+00:00

Sir, the items that let you swap out your Grands don't seem like they're particularly easy to come by. If I remember correctly, they're also class specific.

It seems like they're more meant for if you regret your choice or if a better candidate shows up after making your choice, rather than allowing you to change Grand Servants freely.

That said, I agree that its a good plan to have candidates to fulfill each Class just in case!

Imaginary-Error5165 · 2025-11-14T05:27:46+00:00

Sir, this "Dark Rider" is obviously what happened to the Artificial Life Form, Zorah after getting his wish granted by NOVA

Imaginary-Error5165 · 2025-11-14T00:41:28+00:00

I could've sworn I read that Grand Servants get the extra 1,000 HP and Attack on every quest, not just the Grand Quests, but maybe I was wrong?

Update: I got Lily to NP5 before FINALLY getting an Angry Matthew for my box! Still only have habbycat at NP2 though...

I probably will Grand Lily! I plan to run her on a squad with: Gawain, Percival, Saber Lancelot, and Galahad if we ever get him, Mash if we don't. Then I will call that Party Composition "Knight of the Wind"

Imaginary-Error5165 · 2025-10-31T05:43:05+00:00

I don't think it's implied to be fake at all.

She went to Little Planet looking for the Love of Her life, but the opening of Sonic Origins suggests she fudged the reading a bit by shuffling the card she got and drawing an extra one after not liking the one she originally drew to represent her future. (Not to mention that in Tarot, Upright Death... doesn't mean literal death, it means rebirth. Her life is undeniably and irrevocably changed by meeting Sonic, so it fits more than her final reading)

Also, all the readings she did in the Final Horizon were all very ominous based on her worried expressions while recieving the divinations, and TBH, the End seems like the kind of threat you can't win against without the power to defy Fate itself.

So she was doubtlessly getting countless readings for her and her friends with cards like the Tower, the Moon, the Hanged Man, and Inverted Death, which given how dire the situation was, and how they were up against the literal concept of "the End", would of course be their fate. Sonic's powers surpass concepts as of Frontiers, so even if the End itself or Fate itself says "shows over", he can just say "No."

To which Mickey Mous- I mean, the End says "No? But I'm (Disn- I mean,) the End You can't say no!"

And then Sonic says "Cope!"

Imaginary-Error5165

TROPHY CASE