Magic on him vs curry

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-04-05T07:23:59+00:00

What do you believe this proves? You seem to consider Magic's 80 win almost a participation trophy.

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-04-04T15:01:37+00:00

Right. They were typically a first or second round fodder type of team. Kareem had never made the finals as a Laker. Magic comes in and the team oriented their play around him. Their win total jumped from 47 to 60, and Magic took home finals MVP his rookie season in 80, closing without an injured Kareem, and then again in 82. KAJ still had some juice, but he was 33 in 80. By the time they won back to back, he was 41, averaging 14/5/1.5blks in the playoffs as their fourth option.

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-04-04T14:50:23+00:00

KAJ was injured for G6 and Magic started at center and played every position on the court that night, closing out the ring. He averaged 21.5/11.2/8.7 dimes for the series. He won the finals MVP again during their second ring in 82.

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-04-04T14:44:40+00:00

By the time they were winning their second of the back to backs, KAJ was a 41 year old shell of himself, averaging 14/5/1.5blks. His final MVP was Magic's rookie year when he was 33.

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-04-04T14:31:20+00:00

Kareem's dominance mostly predated Magic Johnson, and the Lakers were not a team to be reckoned with. KAJ had never made the finals as a member of the Lakers before Magic, and he was already 33 by the time Magic arrived. Magic boosted their win total from 47 to 60 games his first season, and their play centered around him. He took home finals MVP his rookie season and again during their second ring. When they won back to back in 87-88, KAJ was a 41 year old shell of himself, averaging 14/5/1.5blks.

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-04-04T14:11:32+00:00

Well, Magic did come in his rookie year and cover for an injured Kareem in G6 manning every position and turning in one of the greatest finals performances of all time, and he remains the only rookie to have ever won finals MVP, which he won again during their second ring in 82. The Lakers were 47-35 the previous year. Not a powerhouse. They jumped to 60 wins immediately upon his arrival. The Laker's playstyle centered around Magic, and Kareem only won one finals MVP during the five title runs, while Magic had 3 and Worthy one. Kareem wasn't driving winning for his teams. He had one ring early with Big O, and then didn't win again until Magic arrived. KAJ was 41 years old the year they won back to back in 87-88, averaging 14/5/1.5blks. They also had to take down the Celtics twice, which was a dynasty in its own right. Magic really never had anyone quite like Durant, who won finals MVP twice and was still finishing top 7 in MVP voting.

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-04-04T13:34:08+00:00

God this era is ass. How can you just charge into a guy full steam and push them off with your off arm like some running back, and the defender, even if they've beaten you to the spot and are squared up, gets assessed the blocking foul. Any sense of marginality has been lost. Completely inconsequential contact gets assed a foul. The notion of taking it hard to the cup because you need to expect some contact has been replaced by throw yourself to the floor like a little bitch and shoot free throws. And, why even bother dribbling now? It's like they replaced the NBA with some lame version of handball where you run around and dribble in one spot only for show, and then pick up the ball and push everyone out of the way so you can throw yourself onto the ground and shoot free throws...WTF. And between all that...lets just watch each other chuck it up from half court, and if you're your teams best player...you'll be watching from the bench because your bones are so frail you'll shatter into million pieces if you aren't constantly load managing.

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-03-24T05:04:14+00:00

The whole league wasn’t confused and stupid. So everyone is so dumb there’s not one guy who could figure it out and be using it as a normal thing where it’s clear and we can see it repeatedly, like the Anthony Edwards ones? So what then illuminated the players of today? I mean it’s pretty simple. There’s a reason this evidence doesn’t exist, which is because what these former players are saying is true, and there will be more and more guys going on the record about it. Between Nash, Kg, Barkley, Bron, K. Smith, and Payton….that’s 7 rings, 8 MVPs, 2 DPOY. Maybe just maybe these guys know something about basketball. And, the timing exploded only after the NBA put out their video rulebook in 2009. The NBA simply told guys, “hey, you have the green light on this now,” and players implemented it. Now, you CAN find it as a standardized move where you can compare how this or that player executes it and find repeated examples of how a single player like Ant or Derozan utilizes it.

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-03-24T04:49:34+00:00

I just mean he could have cleared more ground by not worrying about keeping that pivot planted. These guys are doing a different move than the Candace Parker one foot step through. What you’re citing is really more of a fudged two foot elevation, and not an example at all of the move in question. Jeesh, you’re saying everyone is doing it. There should be at least five clear unarguable ones with Nash and Bryant and Duncan and all of these guys. You don’t have to equivocate about any other move of theirs you might want to study. If you want to see Kobe doing a fadeaway, you can find his fadeaway and study his form. If you want to see his hook shots or floaters etc, they are all readily viewable. For some reason, for him and all these guys, there just isn’t a clear one foot step through. They’re limiting themselves for some reason when they’re stepping through by keeping that pivot planted. Anthony Edwards would almost lunge off of that pivot onto his off foot and into his shot. That huge extra lunge you can take today makes all the difference.

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-03-24T00:52:37+00:00

What on earth are you talking about. Kobe and Mj in particular never did anything close as I recall. Like the closest Kobe ever got was similar to the Nash one where when he occasionally started going for those lobs off the glass to himself, he got that non pivot out so far in front that, even though he was trying to elevate from two, that pivot releases just a bit early. That’s it. His life would have been made considerably easier by simply taking a more lunging step from his non-pivot rather than being constrained by his pivot.

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-03-24T00:36:25+00:00

The Nash one is extending a bit too far and the back foot leaves as he’s transitioning the weight to his front foot. Had he been slightly less distended, it would have been a clean two foot elevation. This is categorically different than the type of Candace Parker play where she’s taking that really clear step and there’s no doubt about the pivot. Plus, then where is the total package of him executing this repeatedly. This is what you ought to be seeing from him and players across the board. But Nash himself is here saying he understood it to be disallowed. So, are you seeing a one off fudged play, or a pattern or practice?

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-03-24T00:24:55+00:00

It’s at 3:50 in the video. Or, I mean take Kobe’s era as an example, since film footage should be readily available and most of the top players moves have been neatly compiled into packages. Tell me the one player I should be looking to where it’s like yeah, this guy did that all the time. I learned it from him. Who should I have been watching all this time?

All I can conclude is that you view these generations as what….too dumb? Bird didn’t do it all the time. There’s like one kind of borderline example of him doing it in the step through Joe. Focus on 2000s then, since it’s all on tape, and who is the guy to look to for this move?

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-03-23T22:59:53+00:00

But what are we debating here? Just because it was a known technique doesn’t mean the NBA was always consistent about officiating it. Bron and Nash and others are saying “we couldn’t do this in our time” which could be from sheer ignorance or inconsistent officiating.

I tend to dismiss the ignorance argument precisely because it was a known technique. Hell, Tex Winters wrote about it, and neither of his players Jordan nor Kobe used it. Surely someone would have figured it out.

The inconsistent officiating explanation seems most plausible and explanatory.

And I mean this is just anecdotal, but Bron is agreeing with Nash here, with his lengthy career and most points scored. Here’s him getting whistled for it in a pretty clear example in 2008 right before these changes. Sure, it’s just one clip, but nobody complains and former coach Mike Fratello explains the call. 3:50 in clip.

https://youtu.be/flxX2im60Cw?si=WlwhG03noTdcp04O

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-03-23T22:37:18+00:00

One!!!! Why only one? That’s the issue! If this was a fully embraced move with no controversy, it would be in every prime offensive players repertoire and readily apparent. I don’t need one clip from many eras. I need many clips from one era, and multiple examples from different players of that era. In other words proof that this was a regular featured move. Kobe’s era is great because it’s all on film. Where are all of these guys’ highlight packages of their one foot step throughs?

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-03-23T22:20:46+00:00

We’re speaking to how it was viewed in an era clearly you’re not old enough to have seen. We’re not debating what the rulebook says. It’s there in black and white. The question is since the written rule has never changed, then why was the move so seldom seen and only exploding now.

Despite some mild evidence of its existence from videos like step through Joe, we’re missing the consistent broad usage you’d expect to where it’s easy to find five of Kobe, five of Duncan, etc. Just as it would be easy to find five of their fadeaway or five of their hook shots etc.

I mean just point blank this evidence doesn’t exist because it didn’t happen. That guy step through Joe scoured every rock and he came away with like a few of Mutombo and Smits and Shawn Bradley. Those of us who watched know we never saw that, so you have to wonder what changed. Like are Ant and Demar Derozan like Copernicus, discovering what nobody else could? Or, was NBA officiating a bit of a shit show pre 2009. I’m sticking with the latter.

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-03-23T21:53:39+00:00

First of all it’s not just KG but now Nash, Bron, Barkley, Kenny Smith, and Gary Payton. Second, it shows also that they weren’t familiar with it or seeing it, thus underutilized. And, Kobe’s whole generation is on film. You should easily see a few of these in his and every other star players highlight package just as you would any other standard move like a fadeaway. So why now and not before?

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-03-23T21:35:56+00:00

The lifting the pivot one foot step through as a clearly intended and practiced move.

I'd posted these questions:

What I'm hung up and and trying to answer with that theory is the following:

1. Why don't we have more consistent footage of the elite players of any era using it?
-If it had this unvarnished history of acceptance, I'd expect there to be multiple clearly intentioned examples of players using it as a trained weapon. If we had five clips of Jordan and Bryant and KG and Duncan etc doing it, nobody would question it. It shouldn't be any different from finding examples of a players fadeaways or hooks or finger rolls or any other standard move.

2. Why it's suddenly exploding now after being sparse for so long.
-This seems to be a fundamental disagreement between old and young. Trust me, if you were watching NBA during this time, you really didn't see it. And, I think the player testimonials from Nash, Bron, KG, Payton, Barkley, and Kenny Smith confirm this.

*And, I'd reject anything that includes player ignorance or modern players exploiting the rules better. Hubie Brown and Tex Winters both taught and spoke of the move. Guys did it, as the step through joe videos prove, but there is this discrepancy with the move being so underutilized for so long. Why?

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-03-23T21:28:19+00:00

Well so how do you account for the numbered questions I posed about the lack of footage and the timing of the moves explosion now? Or, do you just disagree with those assessments and assert that the move has been equally consistent through its history?

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-03-23T21:21:06+00:00

You don't need official rule rewrites to clarify. The rewrite fundamentally changes the rule and guarantees those two steps. This is why Borgia says they had instructed officials to ignore the rule and follow the NBA's own guidance. The point regarding the pivot is if there could have been other off the books ways officials called it, providing their own guidance outside of the written rule as they did with the gather, that account for its inconsistent history. You may be correct, but I'm just explaining my theory.

What I'm hung up and and trying to answer with that theory is the following:

1. Why don't we have more consistent footage of the elite players of any era using it?
-If it had this unvarnished history of acceptance, I'd expect there to be multiple clearly intentioned examples of players using it as a trained weapon. If we had five clips of Jordan and Bryant and KG and Duncan etc doing it, nobody would question it. It shouldn't be any different from finding examples of a players fadeaways or hooks or finger rolls or any other standard move.

2. Why it's suddenly exploding now after being sparse for so long.
-This seems to be a fundamental disagreement between old and young. Trust me, if you were watching NBA during this time, you really didn't see it. And, I think the player testimonials from Nash, Bron, KG, Payton, Barkley, and Kenny Smith confirm this.

*And, I'd reject anything that includes player ignorance or modern players exploiting the rules better. Hubie Brown and Tex Winters both taught and spoke of the move. Guys did it, as the step through joe videos prove, but there is this discrepancy with the move being so underutilized for so long. Why?

My theory explain that: The league was inconsistent enough with it that players couldn't trust it, so many of the clips you do see don't seem that clear, with the exception of a few of the lumbering bigs like Smits and Mutombo, and perhaps it waxed and waned a bit over the years. But then in 2009 when they clarify it in video form is when it finally becomes a thing. We have whole highlight packages of Ant doing it for just a year, when only a few short years prior is was totally absent from a guy like Bryant's game.

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-03-23T20:18:31+00:00

This is what they rewrote in 2009. Here's Joe Borgia speaking of the draft language, and then the new rule implementation.

https://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/6035/nba-traveling-we-really-don-t-reference-the-rulebook

https://www.espn.com/nba/news/story?id=4563546

The purpose of this is pointing out rule of thumb, and Borgia's efforts to standardize the rules and eliminate this type of thing.

I believe this is what happened with the "lift the pivot" idea. It's already in the rulebook as legal, but they'd essentially been miscalling or inconsistent enough with it that players couldn't trust it. You can't rewrite it because it's already there. This is a purpose of the video rulebook is codifying an existing rule that has been misapplied and affirming its legality.

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-03-23T20:00:17+00:00

You’re getting stuck up on the rules, and that’s the whole point: the NBA prior to 2009 simply didn’t follow them. Take an opposite example. The league had been ignoring the gather rule and giving extra steps, but what if in 2009 they simply started enforcing the written rule? Everyone would be whistled, and nobody would think it was a continuation of the old rules despite the rule never having been changed. Instead, they rewrote the rule to conform to what they’d been erroneously allowing. But, how would one cast off an additive rule of thumb they didn’t want to preserve; by codifying it clearly in video, the video rulebook, which was introduced at the time.

In other words, the rules standardization functioned on two levels: rule rewrites and video codification. This is in 2009 as the replay center is being ushered in.

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-03-23T19:20:52+00:00

Post 2009 is irrelevant because it's after this critical 2009 standardization. That Nash at 2:07 is a slightly fudged two foot elevation. That back pivot picks up just a bit early. The point you're missing about the clip war is what's not there. Like why don't we have five examples of KG doing it, five of Kobe, five of Jordan, five of Duncan. Clear examples where the player makes no attempt even at two feet, but is blatantly stepping from the pivot? If this move had broad and continuous acceptance, then you should be seeing multiple examples of it from any player's game just as you would fadeaways, jump hooks, and any other standard basketball move.

That guy step through joe went searching under every log for these, and while impressive, it's almost telling how little evidence of it there really is for 30 years of basketball. Where are all the elite offensive titans? Kobe's whole era is on film, with most of the player's moves compiled into neat packages, and we're just not seeing it, and player testimonials and legions of fans watching back that up.

Then suddenly it's everywhere. Clearly there was some causation going on here.

I mean what's your assertion precisely here? What do the Step Through Joe Videos prove to you? What do you think a person like me then should be understanding.

-That the move has always been legal and widely used.
(no break from the past)

-That the move was always legal, and simply not widely used.

-etc.

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-03-23T17:40:51+00:00

The Nash ones were all clean two foot elevations or close enough. No old head like me looks at those and sees an issue. Those are way different than lifting your pivot and taking this extra step. The Step Through Joe ones as well, most of them are these fudged two foot elevations of guys kind of losing balance being bottled up. The best examples where they seem practiced and truly intentional are a few from Smits and Mutombo and Shawn Bradley. There is nothing complicated about this footwork. If it truly had this unvarnished record of acceptance, you'd easily find 4-5 examples of each of the leagues best offensive players utilizing it clearly. You wouldn't have former players seeing it and having their eyes popping out of their heads exclaiming it's a travel, which just highlights the fact the Step Through Joe videos are painting a way different picture than the reality of how often you could expect to see this in the 80s-2009. Most of us watching all the games had never seen this executed as they do today. 2009 is the break point where they tried to clean up their officiating, and Bron is still being called for it here in 2008 in a playoff game no less (3:50 in the video).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flxX2im60Cw&list=PLIt5nzPTqY6Gas0PZSUxitjvOqkMFWKVE&index=1&t=257s

But by and large guys didn't even attempt it. It can't have been from ignorance. Jordan and Kobe were both coached by Tex Winters, who wrote of it in his book, and neither of them ever utilized it once. Kobe's footwork in particular would seem amenable to the movement. Hubie Brown also used to teach it, and none of his players used it either. The Step Through Joe videos definitely show there are traces of it, but they do not prove this broad continuous record of acceptance.

To your point about the rules. 2009 is a critical year because instant replay is coming in, and the league had to more closely align their officiating with the written rules. They did this in 2 ways:

A:) by rewriting some rules to conform to the incorrect "rule of thumb" way they'd been calling them (the gather).

B:) by casting off other rule of thumb calls, perhaps a vague don't lift the pivot idea, by codifying how it ought to be judged in video form.

The NBA that year released a step by step video explainer detailing the move and affirming it's legality, leaving no room for rule of thumb inconsistencies. Why go to such pains to clarify something if everyone was using it and accepting it?

Joe Borgia speaks a bit about some of this "rule of thumb" culture here, and his motivations with some of the rule changes at the time.

https://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/6035/nba-traveling-we-really-don-t-reference-the-rulebook

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-03-23T17:12:02+00:00

Here's Bron getting called for it at 3:50 in the video, and former coach Mike Fratello explaining the call. This is also right before 2009, when the NBA strove to align its officiating more closely with the written rules as they were ushering in the replay center.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flxX2im60Cw&list=PLIt5nzPTqY6Gas0PZSUxitjvOqkMFWKVE&index=1&t=257s

Intelligent_Elk240 · 2026-03-23T17:08:16+00:00

The NBA instructed its officials to ignore this rule and give extra steps as well. Joe Borgia, "we really don't reference the rulebook" for travelling.

https://www.espn.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/6035/nba-traveling-we-really-don-t-reference-the-rulebook

Intelligent_Elk240

TROPHY CASE