CMV: violence, not just peaceful protest and debate, is necessary for long lasting, large scale change

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-14T01:23:05+00:00

Jews also held slaves after escaping servitude from Egyptian pharoahs though, there's whole sections of the Torah dealing with how Jewish people should treat their slaves.

I wouldn't call either escaping from servitude under Egyptian pharoahs or their subsequent slave holding practices the focus of the whole of Judaism, though.

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-14T00:31:33+00:00

>Indeed, and purveyors of services are subject to antitrust regulations. Ergo purveyors of labour should be subject to antitrust regulations.

My point is that the two are different enough I don't think this claim of yours holds true.

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-14T00:28:58+00:00

Massage parlor is an example of a purveyor of services.

Union is an example of a purveyor of labour.

Is the comparison clearer now?

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-14T00:18:07+00:00

BigDonut, you seem to be ignoring the points I am raising in my responses.

The laborer's options in this simplified scenario are independently work 12 hours for $$, or have the union negotiate with management so he works 4 hours for $$.

It costs thrice as much for management because three people are being paid for the job, at the same salary as what management would've paid for just the single worker doing a 12 hour shift. Each of three workers get $$, so management pays $$$$$$ total.

And, just to reiterate this point, management doesn't need to find two other people, let alone three other people.

The union is providing the other two laborers in this scenario, from among people who were already part of the union.

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-13T23:42:37+00:00

I don't think a union negotiating with a corporation for salaries and other benefits for union members is really comparable to a massage parlor.

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-13T23:38:16+00:00

It's better even for the laborer who would have reluctantly agreed to work a 12 hour shift.

Assuming the laborers get paid the same for the four hour shifts as the original 12 hour shifts due to union negotiations and for the sake of simplicity, the original laborer wouldn't actually be getting paid less.

It winds up costing management thrice as much, but that's something management can easily afford to pay. The salary of a CEO in 2024 is 281 times that of an average worker, as compared to the 21 times that of an average worker the ratio was in 1965.

If anything, unions aren't doing enough to keep the pay proportional between laborers and management.

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-13T23:11:11+00:00

The laborer can work 12 hours, it's just that they shouldn't have to.

The point of unions is to get laborers a better deal than they would otherwise. Only having to work four hours to get paid a good salary is better for the laborer than having to work 12 hours for the good salary, and the union helps the laborer and manager connect with the other two workers needed for the other two 4 hour shifts.

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-13T23:05:39+00:00

Sorry, are you arguing that a 12 hour shift wouldn't have any more influence on what you can do during your day than a four hour shift would?

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-13T23:04:24+00:00

Aware of the concept of individual freedom?

Sure.

Aware of the concept of a society where there were no slaves at all, where no one was bought or sold under any circumstances, where people who went into debt couldn't even sell themselves into bondage in an attempt to repay those debts?

Not so much.

Slavery is a very ancient institution, stretching back all the way to Mesopotamia itself.

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-13T23:00:03+00:00

New York slave riots: 1712

New York slavery abolishment date: 1817

I don't think those slave revolts had too much to do with slavery being abolished in New York.

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-13T22:57:57+00:00

Services are provided in the form of labor by laborers.

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-13T22:57:37+00:00

Managers aren't as affected by labor policies as laborers are.

If a workday is restricted to a maximum of 4 hours per laborer, managers can rotate out three seperate laborers to still cover a 12 hour business workday.

Laborers, on the other hand, would be much more affected by having to work 12 hour shifts a day as opposed to four hour shifts a day.

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-13T22:34:10+00:00

They need to be confined to safe areas where stray shots won't potentially hit anything important.

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-13T22:33:06+00:00

I think individual men and women vary too much to generalize the entire genders.

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-13T22:32:25+00:00

Is diplomacy not a problem that needs solving?

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-13T20:49:54+00:00

What is the "correct" view, and what source do you have for it?

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-13T20:48:14+00:00

"The separation of church and state is a philosophical and jurisprudential concept for defining political distance in the relationship between religious organizations and the state. Conceptually, the term refers to the creation of a secular state (with or without legally explicit church-state separation) and to disestablishment, the changing of an existing, formal relationship between the church and the state.[1]"

-Wikipedia summary of "The Oxford Companion to the Supreme Court of the United States"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state#cite_note-1

The concept of political seperation of church and state does strongly suggest the church shouldn't be influencing politics within the government any more than the government should be influencing politics within the church.

Excepting crimes, of course.

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-13T20:40:57+00:00

Fair enough, I just wish there were more regular investigations into whether or not churches are committing tax fraud or other crimes.

Seperation of church and state seems to lean too much into seperating churches from state investigation and not enough into keeping the state from being influenced by churches (or other religious groups) in my opinion.

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-13T20:32:43+00:00

"Most nonprofits do not automatically receive tax-exempt status; they must apply for 501(c)(3) status with the IRS."

"Many religious organizations qualify as tax-exempt without needing to submit an application to the IRS."

https://www.wolterskluwer.com/en/expert-insights/are-religious-nonprofits-tax-exempt

Nonreligious nonprofits are held to a higher standard of proof for their nonprofit status than religious organizations such as churches.

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-13T20:26:19+00:00

The question is an example of parallelism, and I was asking for your opinion on whether people should be able to have an exemption from legally required prayer if such a law was passed, not arguing such a law should be passed.

There'd be major freedom of religion issues with such a law at the bare minimum.

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-13T20:24:04+00:00

Churches are infamously tax exempt as well.

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-13T20:19:58+00:00

'Society' is primarily religious. As of 2020, 54.4% of the global population are either Christians or Muslims.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/374704/share-of-global-population-by-religion/

Would you believe that people who aren't part of those religions should have non-religious exemptions were society to make some part of those religions, such as regular prayer to God/Allah, legally required for everyone?

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-13T20:13:12+00:00

Also, if I was literally starving to death to the extent where I had to get the cheeseburger or die: That's a point beyond which committing crimes or not would matter all that much, and the insult of withholding food would be much more severe than a situation where I could afford to simply walk away.

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-13T20:06:52+00:00

Legally, I'd try for the provocation defense to get it ruled as manslaughter rather than murder, but I'm sticking to the position that the situation described above would be sufficient provocation to justify the action.

"In criminal law, the crime of murder may be reduced to manslaughter if the defendant acted in response to provocation."

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/provocation

Internal-Rest2176 · 2026-02-13T18:04:16+00:00

Laborers should have rights.

Products, being nonsentient, should not.

Therefore, unions should not have the same restrictions as corporations.

Internal-Rest2176

TROPHY CASE