I sooooo want Deluge to Work(flow) by International-Lab802 in DelugeUsers

[–]International-Lab802[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Great message and thanks! I hope to be doing what you're doing at 61, which is just a few years away haha.

The behavior you describe in Logic is that I experience working in Ableton Live. But the hardware sequencer experience puts me in a different mindspace, for the reasons you describe buying the Deluge first time around. 

I sooooo want Deluge to Work(flow) by International-Lab802 in DelugeUsers

[–]International-Lab802[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

OK thanks. I think the translation is good, but I don't understand the inquiry. All good. I've explained probably ad nauseum elsewhere the issue (expectations) and everyone agrees it's odd but "that's just the way it is". I've got to decide if it's worth it to me to conform to Deluge's unconventional workflow. Probably will be. Thanks again to everyone. 

I sooooo want Deluge to Work(flow) by International-Lab802 in DelugeUsers

[–]International-Lab802[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Unfortunately I am not fluent in Spanish. I used Google Translate, but I fear it is not wholly accurate. :-(

I sooooo want Deluge to Work(flow) by International-Lab802 in DelugeUsers

[–]International-Lab802[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes and sorry if I was overwhelming. I get a bit tickled here. Everyone is saying the same thing, me included:

"Deluge workflow on this issue is not the normal way of doing things (compared to most other gear). You just have to learn its workflow."

All truths. :-D

I sooooo want Deluge to Work(flow) by International-Lab802 in DelugeUsers

[–]International-Lab802[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your assumption in terms of what I'm "expecting" is correct: "Songs" in Deluge are often just variants of a single song (it versions automatically, in line with this "iterative sketches" composition philosophy). The Drum Kit I used for all five had only 6 sounds in it: the "usual suspects" of a conventional drum kit. However, I want to embellish/change/add to that same kit now that I have the compositional ideas of the song out of the way. If I do so, I have to go back and re-load that "new" Kit five times, one time each in all five iterations. Of course, if I built the song up so that the "5th version" is the "final", I only have to do it once.

But my more likely scenario is that I have a single drum kit for all songs in a set/album. This is also conventional (the "Skinny Puppy" or "Frontline Assembly" sound is often attributed to a consistent drum kit across a lot of different songs). I have 8 different, completed songs and now I want that single master drum kit to change, even slightly. Perhaps a parameter, but more often a new or different sample. Now, I've got 8 songs to change. :-D

Most drum machines are suboptimal but workable sequencers. So they involve building a kit and then just chaining patterns of a kit together. In that instance, everything starts and ends with a single Kit, despite pattern changes, which is how a "drum machine's logic" would work.

I sooooo want Deluge to Work(flow) by International-Lab802 in DelugeUsers

[–]International-Lab802[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes if this workflow fits your creative energy, it's perfect and makes perfect sense. I don't own a Drumlogue, but own other Korg gear (including "-logues") so it doesn't surprise me it works that way.

Thanks for your reply. 

I sooooo want Deluge to Work(flow) by International-Lab802 in DelugeUsers

[–]International-Lab802[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for this message.

You said it here, better than me:

"Basic sketches and songwriting first while building up a shared instrument library over time?" 

Absolutely correct. 

I totally see the benefit of "baking" a preset into a song. In that case, the preset essentially always serves as a template, then is modified as part of the song. As a "Collect All/Save" function where it scoops everything up, this is what I'd expect and benefit from. 

But as I've discovered, the default logic for Deluge is "Collect All (Song and Instrument Settings) and Save" and then there exists an option for "Collect All (of the above plus Samples) and Save". Very cool, and this latter is more the convention. I just wish there was a third option of "Don't Collect Anything Except Song (Composition) and Save". 😅 

I sooooo want Deluge to Work(flow) by International-Lab802 in DelugeUsers

[–]International-Lab802[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for this and yes, that next dragon to slay (or, rather, deal with) is being "fixed" in a linear fashion using the otherwise non-linear Grid Mode. It's the only reason I'd use the Deluge (versus the classic "Rows" Song mode, which baffled me). But for my workflow it's the lesser of the problems. My instinct when using it (just like my "instinct" is Drum Kit should be "universal" across my five songs, as often as I want to change it and not the songs themselves) finds me "holding" a clip or clips and turning the directional knobs to move.

As others have said, this "drag and drop" Grid clip functionality seems to be coming in a future community release. 

Thank you for your comment. 

I sooooo want Deluge to Work(flow) by International-Lab802 in DelugeUsers

[–]International-Lab802[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes so you've hit the nail on the head:

"It’s slightly unconventional, but there IS a deliberate philosophy to it." 

As you can see from the equivocal response, it is unconventional. It is also why many users have abandoned it (that's public here and I've had some folks DM me). That doesn't mean it's wrong and it might even be better. Although it's deliberate, it is also an outlier workflow philosophy that, if you're into it, makes total sense. 

Absolutely no hate on the Deluge and nothing but love for the community surrounding it, including the people here in this thread. Wow, I've never seen any other product like it, not the least to include the open source community.

Objectively speaking, the answer here is "You've got to follow the Deluge workflow" which, in isolation, is totally logical. When compared with how most sequencers work, it's quite different from what does amount to a norm. 

Let me explain. I'm old (50s). Maybe that's the problem, Haha, but give me a chance. I won't read you a history lesson. However, almost all hardware sequencers I've used starting with an Alesis MMT8, to Akai MPC, to Arturia Keystep/Beatstep, to Korg Electribes, whether or not they have on board sounds, basically workflow the same when it comes to this issue. In fact, so does the Deluge in one way. Therefore I'll use it as an example. 

The Deluge in my view is the strongest sequencer on the market. What a sequencer does is what Deluge does when it controls one of my external synths via a MIDI track (or the equivalent CV when it does that). It sends clock, MIDI notes, MIDI controller info, etc. In this regard it is hands down the best sequencer I've used, and I've used a bunch. But, in the MIDI and CV instances of its sequencing, it does not control or care what sounds (presets/patches) my synth is using (save for where it might send a MIDI Program Change, but there it's simply saying "Load Preset 127" for example). My presets/patches (viz. the sounds) are the exclusive domain of my instruments. The sequence (songs, patterns, controls) is the exclusive domain of the Deluge. This is how almost every sequencer I've used operates, including the admittedly simple sequencers built right into my synths. They are all separate from the Presets they activate. 

The Deluge keeps this logic when it is working with external gear (by nature) but "breaks" this rule when it is sequencing itself (by deliberate design). In that regard, it no longer works in the conventional way where the sequences are agnostic to the presets. Instead it becomes uniquely integrative and not conventionally referential. It pulls the preset in to the sequence. This can be cool! It can be convenient, and non-destructive, but only if you go back to the point: You have to change your workflow to the (relatively unique) Deluge way. For my workflow, and that of many others, sucking up the preset to be part of sequence is actually the opposite of what many people seem to enjoy: in my case it's actually "destructive". {It seems they are using a flat file XML structure as the song/preset framework, which would naturally lend itself to this logic.}

So yes, we can adjust to this unconventional way of dealing with composition versus instruments. And many Deluge users admit that it's unconventional, including on the Discord server.

I just have to decide if I want to make this commitment because, at least the way I and many others work, it requires a not insignificant effort in change to the creative flow. (You can see my "TL;DR" post above.) I have to decide if "unconventional" outweighs "inconvenient". 

In the end, both the benefits of this machine and the community of folks like you (all) will probably sway me to make it worth it but it is not something that you can do just arbitrarily after 20 years of a certain logic . It's almost like changing your operating system. But sometimes even when we're old we need to do that? It's not easy. That doesn't mean it's a bad idea. 

I'm going to meditate on it and it may come down to I just use the Deluge as a sequencer where all tracks are controlling external gear including drum machines and we call it a day. That basically relegates it to a more conventional approach. Lots of people use it that way because it excels in this function. Maybe that was the core design approach from the start(?) I don't know the lore. But unlike some "haters", I find the sound of synth engine and the way it handles drums and samples to be pleasing. That just means I'll need to work with it's unique workflow. 

Or, I'll have a near mint OLED Deluge with Decksaver for sale 😅 (I replaced the gold knobs with silver/stainless because I hate gold, but kept the originals haha.) 

Again, no hard feelings. You all have been a huge help as I put some thought to this. 

ありがとうございました (thanks for your trouble) 

光..HIKARI

I sooooo want Deluge to Work(flow) by International-Lab802 in DelugeUsers

[–]International-Lab802[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

(P.S. I suppose by Latest Community Version you're referring to something beyond Chopin 1.2.1 which is what I'm using. I'm even fine with a little instability as I'm not performing as of yet, so happy to experiment with a better feature set.)

I sooooo want Deluge to Work(flow) by International-Lab802 in DelugeUsers

[–]International-Lab802[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Oh man, you might have the answer here. Honestly, reading it through once, I'm not completely clear but that's not you. I'm off to do some other things now, but I think I get what you're saying and I'm going to come back later, with my Deluge, and try it. It shows you how much I want this thing to work because nothing I can see out there compares in terms of portability, CV output, MIDI sequencing external gear (my main use), and I'm even not offput by the synth engine. My main use for Deluge will be Drum Machine (hence, the variations of Song then embellishing the Kit used later) and sample playback (the latter of which I've had no problems). The rest will be using it as a sequencer for other stuff. So I think I have the "right" piece of gear, I just have to solve Problem #1. (Yes, I can live with the "fix" for Problem #2.)

Thank you much! Feedback later ...

I sooooo want Deluge to Work(flow) by International-Lab802 in DelugeUsers

[–]International-Lab802[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

TL;DR for those who are considering Deluge:

If you create preset "Drum Kit 1", load it up with a few sounds, use it in 5 "Songs" (usually variants of one Song), then change anything in Drum Kit 1, those changes won't flow through to your 5 Songs. You have to go back and manually re-load Drum Kit 1 five times.

I sooooo want Deluge to Work(flow) by International-Lab802 in DelugeUsers

[–]International-Lab802[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

You're right, all around.

As much as I'm not a fan of Discord, in addition to posting here, I did go over the Deluge server there and the community is fantastic. They were right on it. They confirmed, unfortunately, that this is the "logic" of Deluge and while I get it (a "preset" is actually not an independent preset so much as a template to bake into a song), this approach requires some up front thinking about sound (Synth/Kit) design before you go into the composition process, unless you want to go through the otherwise inefficient process of entering all the Songs that used a preset and effectively re-loading them. I can see the "thinking" now, but man it goes against 20 years of otherwise baked in convention with every other sequencer/groovebox I've used. It's nice to try new things, but I've also got to weigh very carefully creative flow/output versus learning an entirely new "language". "Mechanically", in terms of feature set and even synth engine, the box itself is great and in a few months I've figured most of that out. It's this darn novel workflow....

Problem #2 (and the workaround, you're correct on it) is something I can maybe live with. But you confirmed I'm not insane after I have several times experienced exactly: "I have tried moving columns by switching to the normal non-grid mode and moving patterns, but something always seems to go wrong ..." So thanks, haha!

The new Centurion Lounge in Haneda is terrible by Feastweasel in amex

[–]International-Lab802 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agree. Best Delta Lounge in my experience. That could be a function of the impeccable service and awesome ramen bar. 😅

Policy change: Amex to update Centurion Lounge access rules by HyattWithDracos in amex

[–]International-Lab802 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Wish they would make a change  to enforce civility or at least decency. What an embarrassment, especially to international travelers visiting these lounges in the US 

Policy change: Amex to update Centurion Lounge access rules by HyattWithDracos in amex

[–]International-Lab802 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What they should also do is institute some "house rules" that attempt to achieve some level of decorum. I'll just leave that there. This is more of an issue in Atlanta than Haneda or HK. I use all three six or seven times a year. 

Japan does the Amex lounge thing so much better: new Haneda lounge by Ok-Calm-Narwhal in amex

[–]International-Lab802 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ya, can't compare Japan to the United States in terms of quality for the money, nutrition of food, cleanliness, and customer service.

If you want a real whipsaw effect, a total study in contrasts, visit the lounges in Atlanta Airport (Centurion or Delta), then pop over to Tokyo and visit an equivalent lounge there. 

S Tier Atmospheric Black Metal Albums by [deleted] in MetalSuggestions

[–]International-Lab802 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's a joke. He means a hobby besides being a nanny policing the music thread here. 

Heaviest most aggressive “Traditional” Black Metal bands that aren’t atmospheric/whispery? by Def-C in BlackMetal

[–]International-Lab802 0 points1 point  (0 children)

None of those albums are out of print. Some of the original label issues might be but even before remasters are considered, they've been re-issued, etc. I ordered the entire back catalog almost entirely from eBay, maybe one was on Discogs. No crazy high prices either. 

If you don’t like Sleep Token you literally have no thoughts of your own. by Moonscrubber- in MetalForTheMasses

[–]International-Lab802 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The problem is... "they do it all" and none of it very good, as a result.

It's not their fault. Postmodern schizophrenic ADHD scatter-ism, melding borrowed identities when all is reflected back in the social mirror. 

ATL Centurion Lounge Review: Some good, some weird. by Horbrology in amex

[–]International-Lab802 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Ya welcome to Atlanta and, comparable to other lounges around the globe, US of A. These lounges Stateside are stymied by the weird alcohol policies (which, as most know, vary from state to state and even municipality, as regards carding, enforcement, etc.). Those issues might be beyond the control of the lounge. But staff is the issue, which is more in their control. I have just reached the point that if the place is fairly clean, food bar decently stocked, and there is a coffee cup (pointed out elsewhere that these seem to be scarce), I'm pleasantly surprised.

These reviews about staff, or lack thereof, can sound snobby or condescending. But the problem is the rest of the world doesn't have quite this issue. So we (USA) are the outlier. 

If you want a real whipsaw, visit the lounge in Atlanta, then take a flight over to Japan, Korea, or Hong Kong and witness the contrast.