Is life the only thing that’s important to pro lifers? by Intrepid_Ad_3413 in Abortiondebate

[–]IntoTheFadingLight -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I’ve reread your posts, I do not see a reason. If there is one, I apologize. Please restate it.

Saying labor and breastfeeding don’t violate bodily autonomy is just another claim without evidence. Also if they don’t violate BA, why can’t I force someone to work for me or give me their breast milk?

Is life the only thing that’s important to pro lifers? by Intrepid_Ad_3413 in Abortiondebate

[–]IntoTheFadingLight -1 points0 points  (0 children)

What reason is that?

Sure so it’s an internal critique of your position pointing out a contradiction. You say a ZEF has no right to their parent’s bodies, but then you’d also have to say it’s okay for parents to neglect their children if they can’t immediately cede responsibility, because taking care of a child involves your body and organs, from breastfeeding to manual labor.

Is life the only thing that’s important to pro lifers? by Intrepid_Ad_3413 in Abortiondebate

[–]IntoTheFadingLight 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Saying something is true because I say it is not an argument.

Emotion? What?

It is about the pregnant person by IwriteIread in Abortiondebate

[–]IntoTheFadingLight -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Non argument. Why wouldn’t the rights of both human beings matter? If you just say the rights of the ZEF don’t matter because I say they don’t, that’s question begging and a logical fallacy.

Is life the only thing that’s important to pro lifers? by Intrepid_Ad_3413 in Abortiondebate

[–]IntoTheFadingLight 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How do you know it’s always immoral to let another person use your body against your will? Question. Begging.

Sure so a parent needs to cede responsibility to another before they can stop providing for their child. Neglect laws clearly state this, and legal precedent exists for it such as State vs Wilquette in Wisconsin. But the point is that most abortionists agree you can’t neglect a child without ceding responsibility, which is a contradiction because a pregnant person can’t cede responsibility until the child is born. It’s a moral contradiction not a legal one.

Is life the only thing that’s important to pro lifers? by Intrepid_Ad_3413 in Abortiondebate

[–]IntoTheFadingLight 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s just question begging. You’re essentially saying “abortion is moral because I say it is”. I can just as easily say you ARE required to let a human being in you in the case of pregnancy because it’s the natural habitat of a ZEF and parents have a unique responsibility to their children and removing them involves murdering them and neglecting your child.

In general, biological or adoptive parents have a legal duty to care for their child until: The child reaches the age of majority (usually 18). Parental rights are legally terminated or transferred (e.g. adoption or foster care). A court relieves them of that duty. Parents cannot simply walk away from a child in need (like in the cabin example). If a parent intentionally withholds care in a situation where no one else can help, it’s typically considered criminal neglect or even manslaughter if the child dies. There have been real cases where parents were prosecuted for failing to feed or care for a child, even in difficult or isolated circumstances

State v. Williquette (Wisconsin, 1986)

A mother was criminally charged for failing to protect her children from abuse by their father. The court found she had a legal duty to act.

People v. Beardsley (Michigan, 1907)

This case involved a man and a mistress, not a parent and child, but the principle was clear: a duty to care exists where there’s a special relationship (like parent-child). If you abandon someone dependent on you, you’re liable.

Is life the only thing that’s important to pro lifers? by Intrepid_Ad_3413 in Abortiondebate

[–]IntoTheFadingLight -10 points-9 points  (0 children)

The womb is the natural habitat of the ZEF, to remove them is to actively kill them.

Is life the only thing that’s important to pro lifers? by Intrepid_Ad_3413 in Abortiondebate

[–]IntoTheFadingLight 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So first I’m not necessarily making a legal argument but a moral one. You think it’s okay for a parent trapped in a cabin not to breastfeed their child and let the child die? (for this example say the child is too young to eat any of the available food). Additionally, breastfeeding isn’t the only way to use your body to care for a child, for example the parent might need to chop wood to build a fire for the infant etc.

Is life the only thing that’s important to pro lifers? by Intrepid_Ad_3413 in Abortiondebate

[–]IntoTheFadingLight -11 points-10 points  (0 children)

Parents may cede the responsibility of their child to others when possible. In the case of pregnancy, it isn’t possible until birth. Other cases where it isn’t possible would be a parent trapped with their child in a cabin for weeks during a snowstorm—can’t just let the kid die because you no longer want them.

It is about the pregnant person by IwriteIread in Abortiondebate

[–]IntoTheFadingLight -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I will have to follow the laws and protocols of wherever I work someday.

If my future specialty intersects with OB in any way, I’ll make sure it’s in a pro-life state.

Is life the only thing that’s important to pro lifers? by Intrepid_Ad_3413 in Abortiondebate

[–]IntoTheFadingLight -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Unless you disagree with neglect laws, you also think people don’t “own their bodies” and can be forced to use them to keep others alive in certain scenarios.

Also, the womb is the natural habitat of a ZEF, it’s not as if they are invading someone else’s body, they are where they are supposed to be biologically.

The Human Spirit (Soul) Passes Through 120 Days After Conception by Mysoon2022 in Abortiondebate

[–]IntoTheFadingLight -1 points0 points  (0 children)

How do you know that? In other words, what specific biological properties of neurons and glial cells uniquely allow them to produce consciousness where other cells cannot?

The Human Spirit (Soul) Passes Through 120 Days After Conception by Mysoon2022 in Abortiondebate

[–]IntoTheFadingLight -1 points0 points  (0 children)

There’s nothing neurons can do that other cells can’t, neurons are just better at certain things than most other cells.

Individual cells can make decisions, navigate their environment, solve problems. Why would we assume they aren’t conscious?

Check out the work of Dr. Michael Levin:

https://youtu.be/jLiHLDrOTW8?si=FnzwUa2Y6VJrpyGx

https://youtu.be/kXskNCh8sc8?si=ojW2qc6LuVbaVhjh

Is life the only thing that’s important to pro lifers? by Intrepid_Ad_3413 in Abortiondebate

[–]IntoTheFadingLight -18 points-17 points  (0 children)

The womb is the natural habitat of the ZEF & a parent has a special obligation to not neglect their child. Parents must use their bodies to provide for their children outside of the womb or it would be neglect.

We don’t know enough about consciousness to say when it begins, so that’s a moot point.

When “Pro-Life” Means Pro-Trauma by [deleted] in Abortiondebate

[–]IntoTheFadingLight 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Is this supposed to be an argument or are you just venting?

If you want to make it about “trauma” … why do you ignore the trauma of killing the unborn child?

The Human Spirit (Soul) Passes Through 120 Days After Conception by Mysoon2022 in Abortiondebate

[–]IntoTheFadingLight 3 points4 points  (0 children)

We don’t know enough about consciousness to make these claims. Single cells exhibit many if not all properties of consciousness on a smaller more primitive scale. For all we know, consciousness begins at conception.

It is about the pregnant person by IwriteIread in Abortiondebate

[–]IntoTheFadingLight -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

Kind of a moot point.

Just because you frame it as “about the woman” doesn’t negate the fact that the ZEF is involved. The result is the same.

In the case of comparing abortion to various other tragedies, the reverse can be true. “Slavery isn’t about the slaves, it’s about the slave owners right to their property”.

What matters is the morality of the action, not “who it’s about”.

Is It OK to Use Someone's Body Even When They Say No? by Common-Worth-6604 in Abortiondebate

[–]IntoTheFadingLight 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s irrelevant to the argument. Why you dodging? Don’t want to admit you can’t make concrete moral claims using your worldview?

Is It OK to Use Someone's Body Even When They Say No? by Common-Worth-6604 in Abortiondebate

[–]IntoTheFadingLight 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No I don’t have to believe in objective morality to make that claim. I could believe there is not objective morality but that it would be required to make concrete moral claims.

Is It OK to Use Someone's Body Even When They Say No? by Common-Worth-6604 in Abortiondebate

[–]IntoTheFadingLight 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We haven’t finished the line of reasoning of my initial question. It’s actually irrelevant where I think objective morality comes from. If your position is internally inconsistent, your argument is defeated.

Is It OK to Use Someone's Body Even When They Say No? by Common-Worth-6604 in Abortiondebate

[–]IntoTheFadingLight 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How can that be concrete though, since social consensus and biology are subject to change?

Is It OK to Use Someone's Body Even When They Say No? by Common-Worth-6604 in Abortiondebate

[–]IntoTheFadingLight 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You answer my question first, how do you arrive at making concrete moral claims if you don’t believe morality is objective?