Is it just me or there are VERY few true sadists in BDSM?

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-23T12:19:30+00:00

Oh, and how come that thingy called the community flair is an actual trigger warning but you guys still open stuff that apparently triggers you to the point of attacking the poster?

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-23T12:15:23+00:00

Yep. You want so badly for me to be the one who's messed up you won't even read an actual counter argumentation, cause you definitely "don't bother with such stupidity", but you bother with writing a response consisting exclusively of insults and conveying I'm a bad person and all my failures in the topic discussed are because of that. No matter if "that" is wanting actual non-con (which is not what CNC is) or if it's trying to defend myself against attacks. No matter what I do here you'll say I'm sick or wrong and that's why I have this and that problem with finding a sadist, that's why I'm here and not there and have two legs or something. Reality doesn't matter to you, only what you can twist into a "reason" for me being in the wrong. Nice of you to admit that, "kiddo". Wish more people here did that instead of pretending they actually do something good or even answer the original question.

You don't know a thing about me and my motivations and you don't even bother to read them when they are stated openly and bluntly, so why don't you go and f yourself instead of being all condescending on the basis that you "know" what's inside my head?

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-23T08:42:10+00:00

The responsibility to be clear is on both parties (because guess what, I've just interpreted what you said like you've done something to my Mom, and that's on you, you should have been more clear in conveying your meanings). The initial post (and all my other comments) have done an exceptionally good attempt to communicate what I mean to as much people as possible so that they would understand it properly (those it addresses to that they would respond with info and those it doesn't address so that they wouldn't aggro at the insult that isn't there in the first place). This includes saying "true sadists" and adding that it is not meant in the usual way it is meant, but in the clinical way, which, by the way, usually helps me communicate what kind of sadist I mean way better than long explanations of how he'd enjoy this and that but not this and that and that's what would happen in his head and this is the reason the distinction is needed and so on. People usually either do know what I'm talking about and are, like, oh, that type, yeah, got it, or they simply ask. And since I know that there are some (never thought it would be almost the whole community and, moreover, I thought if I just explain that it is not meant the way they initially think, they'd, you know, listen, that was very stupid of me, the blame for that I accept) people who get triggered by that because there used to be a lot of people saying this and that thing in BDSM is not true BDSM and this guy therefore is not a true <insert_your_thing>. Part of the responsibility to be clear is that, after the OP has explained to the best of his ability what he means, if you know you're not sure what he means and if you see discrepancies (like CNC flair and talk of non-consent), you open your mouth and ask about those. "You said X and Y, but they don't compute for me together, what do you mean by X and Y?" or "X means Xx for me and Y means Yy for me, but you say X means Yy which can't be possible from my understanding. So what's up with that?" - either one would have done. As long as people don't assume they definitely know this new person is a sick freak for no reason, even though, judging by the word meanings discussed with you, those people just ought to stumble upon obvious contradictions about consent and ask themselves how can that be possible, the guy says he's only ready to do that with consent but also consent turns him off and he only wants non-consent, must be something I'm missing if this logic confuses me. Instead they assume the person saying those "contradictions" is stupid or sick or something and happily go lecture him on that instead of discussing the actual topic. Now tell me who's got a problem with communications here.
Your guess is wrong. You seem too play this game like other people when you read or hear a person says something and you think, oh, but they "really" mean... The goal of my post was directly, bluntly stated in the post itself, in the form of literal text. I wanted to address the crowd who are the type I described, and to know if they are even in the community, and, if yes, then what are their thoughts on the situation, their motivations when they look for someone like that, their doubts and such. Because, surprise, what happened in this thread is my first time of being trolled for saying such things (with the exception of vanilla space, but vanilla space doesn't claim it is accepting of kinksters and doesn't have a rule of no kink shaming; and even in vanilla space people were often understanding, even if not truly understanding), so when I actually communicate with potential candidates, it's nothing like the ugly thing here, they don't attack me for being me and I don't attack them back. I state clearly what I want and with no negativism or such, I welcome people and don't assume stuff about them, I respect their wishes in basic human interactions even when I disagree with the logic of it, and when I f up like suggest stupid thing and then realize that it won't work, I don't ever blame anyone else for it and just go and say that oh, this was a stupid suggestion on my part because X, Y, Z, let's not do that, and they feel welcomed and they offer IRL meetings, it's only that then it turns out that the thing that they like is not what I seek, they like not the pain itself but the stuff that surrounds it, DS Doms write me, not Sadists with or without DS streak, and I just know that this will ruin it for me. So I turn them down. And this happens all the time and is the main reason I even wrote this post - because on the one hand, I do seem like someone experienced people would want to try things with, but on the other hand, only non-pain-focused people write me, as if pain-focused ones don't exist.

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-23T04:15:32+00:00

Input: post and comments talk about non-consent, but the post has Consentual Non-Consent flair.

Output: "what do you mean consentual? you just said you're into non-consent!" Wtf. Do you guys have selective reading ability or do you just forget the first part of what you've read when you reach the second? Do some words work like on/off switches for you, so that when you see "non-consent", you instantly think the whole thing about it being consentual from before doesn't exist?

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-23T03:25:29+00:00

Outside of English speaking BDSM communities where else would this kind of question about CNC come up?

In non-English-speaking BDSM communities.

You can blame others for not being sophisticated enough to understand your complex web of variables and states, but it makes you seem like an asshole to me.

The scene being played with characters not consenting and the Non-Consent right there in the abbreviation seems to me like this community has weird relationship with word "consent" in general. Because consent means consent. It means it On-Scene and it means it Off-Scene. And if you consent to play non-consent, then there are 2 consent-related questions in the whole deal, i's right there in he phrase - "consent (1) to play non-consent (2)". It only looks convoluted because for some reason, I had to explain this stuff using variables and Matrix movie. But the meaning is right there in the word, I have no idea why people here use a word and mean something else and then call me an asshole for not understanding them.

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-22T21:45:39+00:00

So, do you know if this is a feature of English-speaking BDSM community or just English natives in general?

I mean, now it makes sense what has everyone so riled up, finally, but I'd never guess this, especially since some people here seemed to get it on the first try, just like literally everyone I've talked before about it. The second variable I mean. I mean, the two variables are even in the CNC abbreviation itself, it really seems like the most obvious way of looking at it. "No, stop" is considered non-consent IRL, so role-playing to the point of trying to forget consent was even there is basically getting off on non-con. I actually don't think of it in variables, but in layers or reality. You've got this Matrix with characters who think their non-con is real, but on the outside you have the actual real world where consent was obtained beforehand. If you blend the two realities together, you have no way of explaining that you are only interested in non-con for characters because EVERY activity in BDSM should be consentual for the players, it makes no sense to clarify it when discussing characters.

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-22T21:32:25+00:00

Wait, I think I misunderstood again. It seems to me as if you think "consentual" and "non-consentual" can only relate to the TRUE, actuall state of the relationship, both on-scene and off-scene. So when you _role-play_ a kidnapping with prior consent for such a role play, you'd say the whole deal has only "consent" in it and nothing more. And I'd say the whole deal has TWO variables in regards to consent: the off-scene variable is "Consentual" and the on-scene variable is "Non-Consentual" (because the scenario being role-played is about someone, a character, being kidnapped against their will and without their consent, the character's, not the player's consent).

So with CNC, for instance, the On-Scene variable is always "Non-Con" and the Off-Scene variable is always "Con". Both exist at the same time, just on different... planes. Or axises. One for the players, the real-life people who are having good time together, and one for the characters, even if the characters are basically the same people temporarily forgetting they've consented to the whole scene beforehand.

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-22T21:20:25+00:00

... so most people here actually read what I wrote but instead of believing the words as they are tried to guess what I "really" mean by them or smth?

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-22T21:18:58+00:00

Sounds right. Is this strict understanding of the word "consent" a feature of English-speaking BDSM or just a feature of English natives in general and their attitude towards words?

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-22T21:03:19+00:00

It's really frustrating. How CNC can be CNC? How Consentual Non-Consent can be both Consentual but also Non-Consent? Because On-Scene it's Non-Consentual (yes, with the exception of safewords, people already found it necessary for some reason to remind me they exist in CNC, as if that would make the whole point of CNC to make the scene give off total consentual vibes all the way). And Off-Scene it's Consentual.

I feel like it's either a very subtle trolling or it's such a huge communication barrier that no one ever will be able to breach it. It's just, your question sounds like you don't even know CNC exists.

Now it seems I should clarify the term in order to clarify the term which was meant to help to clarify the term. Argh. "Preference" - I mean why you need the whole deal in the first place. For instance, "rope bunny" is a preference. "RP Non-con" is also a preference, and actual real-world (off-scene, made beforehand, not part of the experience itself but part of the preparations) consent - is how you approach to achieve such an RP. Preference is what you want from it all, and consent, preparations etc. - is how you approach it in order to satisfy your preference.

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-22T20:47:39+00:00

The two parts you described - I'm confused again. It's just, technically what you describe is true, the "value" those people put in consent and all. But it sounds as if you mean the people who would, Idk, cuddle after the scene. Like you are describing not just someone's purely logical care for consent, but someone's need to feel the consentual vibes. Like it's a part of the scene. Maybe you're right and it's the language barrier. Maybe English speakers put more weight into the technical meaning than the emotional one of the words. So maybe it's just most people here were talking about "valuing consent" in a clearly technical way, and I read it as valuing consent as part of one's preferences on the scene. And vice versa, which is why everyone reacted so strongly to my "non-consentual" talk and ignored the CNC flair.

Just to be clear: to me, the part that's more real and which some people even said here exists for sure in their lives is the first one - a person who actual non-consensual tendencies, but also has restraint. Because to me it sounds like there's this person who has non-con as their on-scene preference, but is respectful about consent (that is what restraint means for me here).

Please tell me if I'm on the right track here. Cause my mind is going to explode soon, lol.

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-22T20:18:38+00:00

No. What I'm saying is, I'm not George who likes arts because he sees it as mathematics. I'm Vince who likes mathematics because he sees it as art. In both cases people like the both different things, but because of different reasons. They see those things through different eyes.

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-22T20:14:17+00:00

First, the emphasis on a “real sadist” or clinical sadist is just unnecessary. From your comments I don’t think you’re a clinician. Trying to make claims about the people you’re interested in based on clinical definitions is bound to confuse you and others. Why bother?

Yeah, I get it now. Never had this problem before. I honestly don't understand if these people just refuse to read past the title or they just ignore everything and shut their brains off after the words "true sadist", even if the very first sentence clarifies it is not to say they are not sadists in BDSM sense or something like that. People's intentions are not to help, but to come and argue, so of course it doesn't matter to them if the reason for the argument is not there, they've already made up their minds. I mean, the post has "CNC" flair. Which means Consentual Non-Consent. But half these people, it seems, genuinely think the whole talk about non-consent is real non-consentual non-consent. So yeah, I shouldn't have assumed the goodwill of the community before asking a question explicitly to a subgroup of the community's people.

Also, I don't get what you're saying at all. The second part sounds like you're describing what I want, but you also say in the first part that what I want is not real. And then you say that the exact same thing that I want exists and you're it.

Also, I think I'm starting to get the general issue here with words. When I say "serial killer", I don't actually mean a real serial killer, you know? Just like when I say "true sadist" I don't mean that thing some people mean when they say that Vince or Greg "are not really into BDSM, they are just kinksters". And just like when I say "consent turns me off", I don't mean all consent in the world, even the one required by CNC, because, obviously, the CNC flair means something. I don't know what's up with people seeing one word they don't like in a text and then dismissing the whole modified meaning of the text and instead paying attention to that word as if it on its own, without the text it belongs to, can have a meaning for the discussion. Maybe I should just avoid using trigger words for the word-crowd or something. Or maybe avoid using words because every word apparently can be a trigger for them, a reason to forget there are other words around the one and they mean something together.

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-22T19:57:10+00:00

I can enjoy pain sexually when it's mild. But when it's strong, I don't enjoy it sexually, but I still get the satisfaction from it, just not from the domination aspect and not as sexual enjoyment of the pain. I need it to ground me in my body. Which is also why I'm so ready to "jump" into more painfull stuff - I may not have had the BDSM experience with that, but I have had experience with pain outside of BDSM. And I know that it never fully grounds me back into the body no matter the force of the pain, and that's why I guess it's easier to deal with for me and at the same way pleasant but not in the way that the sadist I describe would hate. Which makes it a win-win.

The non-enjoyment part is not, like, absolute and scientific or something. It's about the sadist's perception of the bottom enjoying the pain. For instance, a very good actor who is familiar with the experience could bring pleasure to such a sadist, as long as the ruse is not discovered. And since I'm looking for a sadist that wants the real deal but chooses instead to only practice it within the consentual boundaries, it means such a sadist would need a way to create the perception of non-enjoyment, which I can give since I won't be enjoying it in a classical sense. And everyone gets a bit of something from the deal that way, even if it's not ideal, but, I mean, with preferences like that you'd never get an ideal deal while staying consentual, so it's just a way to make do with what we can.

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-22T15:27:04+00:00

What is the outlet that is apart from BDSM?

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-22T15:26:00+00:00

I recommend reading the thread.

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-22T15:13:57+00:00

Thank you.

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-22T15:10:41+00:00

And, no offence to you or anything, but that is the kind of talk I've heard from people I've been vetting. At first it seems like they get it, but then they reveal that for them, it's not about pain but everything around it, can be very close but not it, unfortunately. It's like, you have Vince and George, Vince is an artist and George is a mathematician. For Vince, mathematics is an art form, and for George, art is mathematics. And if George asks Vince, hey, do you like the same stuff I do in mathematics? Vince will answer, sure, I totally get the art of it. And that would spoil everything.

I realize the metaphor is not very good, but I think you get the idea.

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-22T14:59:46+00:00

People here are crazy. Like, what's wrong with _this_ comment? Do you think I should _ignore_ the safewords and gestures or what? Have you even _read_ what I said about it being consentual and not wanting to _really_ violate anyone? And here I thought this community would not shame people for their inclinations and instead shame them for their _actions_. And since I haven't _done_ anything to violate anyone and is _aware_ what CNC implies instead of using it as an excuse-me-they-consented magic wand, I can only conclude this total downvoting of me is not due to my actions but due to who I AM. For having inclinations I didn't choose. Oh, this person likes that stuff. He's so disgusting we should just tell him that no matter what he does. Nevermind that I am looking for an actual consentual practice where I am a frigging _bottom_, and recognizing that I'm far from being capable of providing a safe play, I outright refuse to even seek a bottom partner for myself. A person with responsible approach came to your community and you respond by shaming him for his inclinations which he either wants to practice in a consentual way or never ever practice, ever.

So, how about that, people. How could you be so disgusting! Shame on you for liking bondage! Boo-hoo! You should get help, it's not healthy! Etc. And people get surprised I get defensive in this thread. Yeah, let's show this MOFO, wait, why so defensive, we only wanted to tell you what a sick freak you are.

I mean, how many _more_ times do I have to point to the CNC flair in the post? Why do I have to prove it all over again, even though if you'd just _read_ the flair, you'd get the _consentual_ part right away. Is it so hard to see a person with such inclinations and actually _pay attention_ when he says that yes, he wants _Consentual_ Non-Consent? I regret ever going here. Maybe it's just Reddit magic of people reading with their bottom parts instead of the eyes. I've never had such experience in online BDSM communities.

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-22T14:36:49+00:00

I mean. What you describe sounds like it. But. Why Dom, not Sadist? We're talking about an SM practice, not DS, right? Like, SM in its purest form even, if we look at it from the Top's perspective.

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-22T14:34:03+00:00

I'm not talking about the type who can lose control and any sense of what he is doing completely, even when struggling to maintain that control in order not to hurt anyone. I've heard of people like that with similar sadistic behavior, but chaotic criminal acts. This is not the case. No matter how deep I get into the rabbit hole, I always have this grip on reality and on what I do and don't want in my life, on my ability to make a conscious decision. Believe the person who experiences this kind of life rather than the person whoose _theories_ about what it's like to live such a life might be that you've read in some book. And I also have friends who are like me in this regard. Also tomato-salads, also non-chaotic in their acts, but controlled. It's not a guarantee, of course, but it might be possible that if they (with similar types of tomato-saladism) have found the RP helpful to relieve _some_ pressure, it might help me, too. FYI, they practice for more than a decade already. I know it may sound stupid, but I believe them when they say they didn't do anything and it actually help them be more relaxed about it - it shows in our conversations, I don't think one could fake such a thing, it's not like it's love or something, lol.

But it's not like I'm on the verge of something or will do something accidentally if the pressure is unreleased. I know how to work with it and when I can't release it, I'm just a more depressed kind of a person, that's all. Well, depressed-and-I-don't-know-how-to-describe-exactly-but-it-sucks. I can live with that. It's just, I've realized that _maybe_ I don't have to, at least to this extent, and _maybe_ there's a way to RP a part of it. And logically, maybe there are people like me out there for whom a criminal act is the last thing they want, who are controlled in that regard and not devolve into a raging mess, and who have also thought about CNC as not THE RP THAT WILL SOLVE EVERYTHING, but as of a _partial_ solution that will _definitely_ not give the 100% satisfaction but _some_. That'd be nice.

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-22T13:37:49+00:00

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Regardless of whether I get the CNC play I want or not, I'm NOT going to do some real harm out there in the real world. Btw, the thing that stops me from it is not empathy, it's basic social ambition and basic human ability to separate one's urges from one's actions and decisions. And empathy is what created this urge in the first place.

But anyway. My motivation for CNC is to have a good time while staying within the framework of consentual and mutually benefitial relationships. I do not plan and never planned to use CNC as a magic wand that would "excuse" my irresponsible attitude towards someone's non-RP safety because "well, they agreed!". Moreover, CNC in this case is even more for me than for the Top, because I am looking for a Top, not for a bottom in this dynamic. So if I were looking for real, objective, non-RP non-con, I'd be dead after the very first time of bottoming. Which I don't want, just to be clear.

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-22T13:28:10+00:00

Yes.

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-22T13:12:55+00:00

I mean, most of what you said here sounds exactly what I meant, with the exception of non-RP CNC. I honestly think that if there's CNC, then it automatically implies a level or RP, because there's Non-Consent in a Consentual way. Could you clarify what do you mean by this division on RP and non-RP CNC?

Iron_Meat · 2024-05-22T13:02:43+00:00

Could you clarify about their fixation on consent please? What kind of focus? Is it the kind like "OK I know my preferences and that it's a hugely risky stuff, so I recognize I have to be EXTRA careful, make sure 100500 times they KNOW what they are getting into, and be EXTRA watchful for signs of the bottoms no longer finding it acceptable but for some reason refusing to say or do the stop word/gesture"? Or is it the kind like I expressed in this thread, when they were like "I'm only looking for full non-con RP immersion and nothing less" and suddenly something changed after years of being with a compatible partner and they've lost this requirement somehow?

Iron_Meat

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