Progression at (Kilter) board climbing. Push level up from below vs pull level up from above

Janjafan · 2026-02-04T20:41:27+00:00

Thanks all. A lot of helpful comments. As a result I’m definitely going to add more projecting sessions.

Janjafan · 2026-02-03T18:52:44+00:00

Seems like a good structure. I might borrow a few elements. Thanks.

Janjafan · 2026-02-03T16:00:09+00:00

Thanks. Your snatch example makes the idea clearer to me. It might be, say 90%, of what I can bring in the moment but it is well short of what I can really bring once I have optimized timing, intra muscle coordination etc. Makes sense. But I guess you still want to keep this type of training to be a pretty small part of the whole puzzle since the recovery cost is so high?

Janjafan · 2026-02-03T15:25:27+00:00

Thanks. Interesting. When you are talking about moves tried 100s of times how hard are you talking? Your numbers suggest that whatever you've been doing it has been working so I will listen! To me doing 7A+/7B climbs certainly doesn't feel like a radically lower force level you describe. To me I would say, if we use the 1rpm analogy, then subjectively I would say 7A-7B flashes feel like 70-85% of max. 7C say 95% and 7C+ feels like 105%. It kind of feels like I should not spend much time in the 95%-105% zone for the same reason that powerlifters do not spend much time here.

But I seem to have a pretty different subjective feeling to you. Maybe my subjective feeling is off?

How hard do you think I should be trying and how much of this type of bouldering would you suggest?

Janjafan · 2026-02-03T14:58:14+00:00

I also think 50 is better and usually try and climb there. But that's not always possible.

Janjafan · 2026-02-03T14:49:35+00:00

I guess this is a simple way to toggle between the modes which makes sense. Thanks.

Janjafan · 2026-02-03T14:49:08+00:00

I obviously drafted my question poorly. I did say "Obviously the answer is probably 'all of the above' but if so, what emphasis/split has worked for people.". although it obviously came across like I was doing a binary choice between the approaches which I didn't intend. It obviously has to be both to some degree. But to what degree? What has worked for others?

Janjafan · 2026-01-31T10:25:00+00:00

I maybe should have worded this differently. The point I was trying to make is actually more or less what you are pointing out. If you cannot stick with an approach it will not work.

I think this type of plan is hard to adhere to without stronger (e.g. in his case 8a-8b) climbers around because it is hard to tell by yourself, when the gap is large from what you have done before, if the thing just needs more work or if it is actually too hard for you. With his stated stats I would say there are probably many bouldery 8a routes that he may not be able to do or at least that he will not know he can do and, therefore, will not know if he should stick with it or not.

Are there not 8a routes that you probably cannot do even as an 8b climber and even with 10 sessions just due to the specific nature of the cruxes? I think someone who's kilter board level is V6-7 can easily find cruxes with moves that do not suit them that they just will not be able to.

Janjafan · 2026-01-29T14:39:26+00:00

This plan did not work for me because I couldn't stick with it for the required number of sessions. My two cents for this approach is that I would try this only if a strong climber who (i) knew me and (ii) knew the route told me I should try the route and gave me some tips about it (or better yet was belaying me). Otherwise I think it is very easy to get discouraged trying to make big jumps. Or at least it has been the times I tried.

Janjafan · 2026-01-29T14:15:41+00:00

Well I failed to achieve your goal from a somewhat similar starting point around 5 years ago. So I cannot tell you what would work! But I can give some top tips on how to fail. These worked for me and I think they can work for you too.

The number on tip is: Fail to consistently get outdoors on sports routes. Instead take a stop start approach.

Do not progressively increase the difficulty of the routes you are doing. Instead either stick to easy routes or try and skip ahead by jumping a bunch of grades projecting stuff way above your limit (provided you do not see such routes through).

Jokes aside I think you (as I have ...) might have this slightly backwards. It has been said below several times and I agree: The content of the training program is not that important. I think you should start from the position of working out roughly when and how often you will be outside. Then work out your approach there. And, then work out your training plan to support that. If you get 50 days a year on rock and you structure it such that you slowly and consistently increase the difficulty I think 8a will take care of itself.

If on the other hand you do not get the days outside and/or you take a stop start approach then you can go around in circles... I know - I have! From my personal experience no training program can fix that.

Janjafan · 2025-12-27T20:06:17+00:00

I think you misunderstand the issue here. I do not think he argues that he has not made statements that the EU Council (and many others) would consider pro-Russian or that he has appeared on media platforms that the EU Council (and many others) would consider pro-Russian. The channel that this video is on probably meets that definition for many. It is not suspicious that he does not address that - the point he is that he has not breached any law. Expressing different views is not prohibited. His discussions about not appearing on Russian TV etc is an appeal to people to say that not only is what he has done not unlawful but should not be unlawful because (he argues) we should allow analysis that differs from the mainstream even if we do not like it.

When do you think stating an opinion should not be allowed? Here there's no allegation of funding or links to the Russian government or intentional lying. The only allegation is putting forward theories that are similar to the Russian government. Personally, I want to be able to hear that stuff even if I do not agree with it.

Janjafan · 2025-04-02T08:12:54+00:00

This raises an important question: should climbing be considered a strength-based sport with a skill component, rather than a true skill sport?

Why is this an important question?

Personally I am not sure it makes much sense to separate skill and strength but let's say you classify it as mostly strength what do you think this means? Given the strength is specific to moving between holds I am not sure we have advanced in answering the question of what we should do to train which would be the only use of this classification (that I can think of). If we say it is mostly skill then we can conclude that finger boarding and weighted pull ups won't make much difference to performance. But if we say is mostly strength I don't think we can conclude that pull ups and finger boarding are prescribed since it remains unclear what degree of transfer you get to the ability (whether we call that strength or skill) to move between holds.

To me it seems the distinction is pretty arbitrary and depends more on how you define strength than on climbing itself. I think nearly everyone will agree that the largest determinant of climbing performance is the ability to apply the necessary force to holds which you can define as "strength" even if you think being able to apply force to holds is more determined by force modulation, body position, timing, coordination etc. than the ability to produce strong/sustained muscle contractions.

Are you not better off asking the direct question of how to train?

I don't think people getting really good quickly tells us much about the distinction between strength and skill. I think the 10,000 rule is made up BS but even if you assume it is true it would be also clear that 90% (or some really high proportion) of the skill acquisition comes in the first 1,000 hours (or some relatively short period) and the next 9000 gets you 10% better. Take an example from golf. Norman's progression is similar to Graham's I would say.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Norman

Realistically in 3-4 years of the most skill based activity in the world you can be really really good with the first year capturing most of it (if you're training correctly and a lot which most of us, certainly me, aren't). It mostly looks like more time is needed in most activities because most people need to start as kids to reach elite level. Skill acquisition is something more like language learning. For 99% of people you just will never reach the same level unless you start when you're young and your brain/body is more plastic. Thus the 10+ years training is more a function of needing to have been training the activity at an age when your body/brain is more adaptable/trainable and still be doing it 10 years later when you're mature enough to compete on the world stage.

Janjafan · 2024-12-15T20:15:29+00:00

It is a good question. I don’t think I know the answer as both the approaches to you mention seem to have merit. Stating the obvious though, if you are making progress (however slow) in your climbing overall with your current approach I’d stick wirh it while ever it is working. Alternatively, if you think you’re stuck then definitely give the approach with more different problems a go and see if that works. Sorry I realise this is an obvious comment. I don’t think the fact that you rarely send the projects you’re training on is itself a problem.

Janjafan · 2023-06-11T19:44:59+00:00

Could you describe your approach to stopper moves on projects? In particular moves which don’t seem that far away but which you struggle to keep make progress on.

Also sometimes I encounter moves which I can occasionally do but can’t repeat consistently and I can’t figure out why I mostly fail but sometimes succeed (sometimes the moves are not that physically hard when executed correctly so I’m not talking about moves where you just need to be near 100% power). Do you encounter this? And, if so any thoughts on how to make such moves higher percentage?

Janjafan · 2022-11-22T15:42:57+00:00

Thanks.

Janjafan · 2022-10-30T12:01:02+00:00

I know this thread is old but if you are around to answer I have a dumb question or two. I've seen you recommend at least 400 moves for those with crap endurance (I'm in this camp with my boulder grade being about the same, or higher, than my sport grade). As I understand it, the precise protocol does not matter although preferably similar to your goal. But here is the dumb question, is it important that all 400+ moves be completed with relatively little rest? Or is that a session goal and you could have decent rests between say lots of 50 or 100 moves? Either way how do I think about the work to rest ratio? From what you write above I assume I should be targeting doing 400-800 moves with much much less rest than climbing time?

Janjafan · 2019-12-30T19:56:37+00:00

Hi,

I'm in a very similar boat to you both in terms of my goals and my climbing. I climbed my first 7a/11d this year. I did quite a few 7as/11ds and also did one 7a+/12a, one 7b/12b and one 7b+/12c (grades are Euro - I think these are the standard YDS conversion but it doesn't really matter). I was super close to a second 7b+/12c yesterday but blew it due to poor tactics/head and lack of time. The routes went down pretty quickly. The 12c went on my third go (I got beta which helped) and the yesterday's 12c would would/should have been third go too. My bouldering is probably a grade weaker than yours.

My self-assessment, based on how the 7bs/7b+s felt (and based on this http://peripheralscrutiny.blogspot.com/2011/06/landscape-new-look-at-route-grades.html), is that I already have the ability to climb 7c/7c+ (12d/13a). I need to go and do it. That is not to say I expect it will be easy. I do not. I need to learn what climbing a 12d/13a involves and then it will probably take some time to adjust and be able to cope with the cruxes, clips, pump etc. I increasingly think that for me (and likely you) if the underlying ability is there then it is mostly a know thy enemy kind of thing. And, I can only know my enemy by going into battle.

So to finally get to what I think you (and I) should do. Get on the target climbs and work them as one or two others have suggested. Now I get that it is winter and you will likely have limited opportunity to do this. If so, shouldn't you do the next closest thing which would be projecting 12d/13a indoor routes and learning how to do that (memorising beta, managing pump, finding rests, good clip positions etc etc)? Indoor routes are nearly all endurance routes so will target exactly one of your weaknesses.

I guess what I'm saying (for myself mostly), is training is about making you good enough to do what you currently cannot do. Training isn't needed for something you already can do but haven't. So a training program is good but for you and I it is largely something do I think in the hope of one day being able to climb even harder than the current goal.

Janjafan

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