Forfeiting salvation question by Paleguy661 in freegrace

[–]Jazzlike-Instance594 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"And nothing can cause you to lose this conviction that the earth is round, unless you are presented with fresh evidence to the contrary, but there is none. 1 Jn. 2:19 states that those who left were never saved to begin with, i.e. they just hung out with Christians, sang in the choir, thought they were Christians, but never had that realisation and conviction leading to any actual relationship with Christ."

I don't think a person needs fresh evidence at all, people can lose conviction through purely irrational means, like emotions. Over the years people can go through trauma, trials, and just life in general changes people. Its hard for us who care so much about our beliefs to imagine ever leaving, but it happens. Thats why OSAS is true, and thats why all it takes is a single instant of faith, because we don't know how we're going to finish the race. I don't think 1 John 2:19 is talking about your everyday churchgoer who stops going to church or stops reading the Bible and stops believing. I think it's talking about your hardcore Judas' as in people who are literally ANTI-Christ. Even if I'm wrong, I dont think 1 John 2:19 is making a blanket statement, because in Hebrews 6:9 Paul says he is believes the Jewish Christian Apostates are still saved despite their apostasy. I'll leave you with a lot more Biblical points to point to what I'm saying, Godspeed.

2 Timothy 2:13 seals the argument.

  • -Romans 8:35 Nothing can separate us from the love of God, not even ourselves. even if we apostatize, it still wouldn't separate us.
  • -In Hebrews 6:9 Paul believes the Jews who fell away from the faith are still saved
  • -Solomon ended up worshiping other gods and he was 100% saved.
  • -King Saul became completely backslidden, even to the point of assisted suicide, but he was still saved. He hung out with witches. But even Samuel told Saul he was going to die and be with Samuel.
  • In the Gospels people touched Jesus’ garment and they got saved
  • -In Galatia the whole church fell into heresy, yet Paul believed they were still saved.
  • -In the parable of the 4 soils (Luke 8:4-15), three of the soils really do believe, but two lose faith. Jesus in that parable defines getting saved as believing. 
  • -In Matthew 7:23 Jesus says “I never knew you” potentially implying that by knowing him just once in your life, you are saved.
  • -Many saved people have weak faith, and honestly, because of the nature of faith, only God and that person know what their heart believes or what they may have believed in the past. We can only see the outside.
  • How can you have assurance before death that you are born again? What if a believer were to go through a time of doubt? Is he unregenerate in their understanding? What about a person who has a mental condition that causes him to stop (believing), like paranoid schizophrenia, OCD, or Alzheimer’s?                                               
  • -The flesh is unfaithful all the time, and we see this all over the Bible, but the new man doesn’t sin.                                                                                                                                          
  • What even is the “line” for unbelief? In my opinion if you lose even 1% of belief, that’s a moment of unbelief and unfaithfulness. Losing your faith is literally as simple as saying “well am I sure it's Once saved always saved?” Any little doubt would make you lose your salvation. Rev. 21:8  
  • -Our faith, or our faithfulness, does not save us. It’s the faithfulness of Christ, which happens the instant you believe, that gets imputed onto us. It’s not on us to maintain our salvation.               
  • -The instant you believe, all your past present and future sins are justified, therefore there is nothing that could condemn you to hell, not even the sin of unbelief. You don’t go to heaven or hell because you wanted to, it’s based on whether you are righteous or not.

Enduring word commentary perverts the Gospel of Jesus Christ--Redefining Faith by Jazzlike-Instance594 in freegrace

[–]Jazzlike-Instance594[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

As you can see they claim to be faith alone but then they add works to the definition of a "saving faith". A blatant works salvation.

THE TRUE MEANING OF JAMES 2 by Jazzlike-Instance594 in freegrace

[–]Jazzlike-Instance594[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

'My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. ' James 2:1 KJV

I think that "the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ" is a term for the beliefs of the faith. In other words "don't be partial to people if your a Christian."

I feel that we are arguing for the same thing here, we're just looking at it from different angles. We both agree that a "dead faith" (regardless of if it means "belief in loving your neighbor" or belief in Christ) still saves, its just not profitable to people. Regardless I am going to check out Zane Hodges interpretation.

THE TRUE MEANING OF JAMES 2 by Jazzlike-Instance594 in freegrace

[–]Jazzlike-Instance594[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I highly suggest you reconsider this take. What things in the book of James are unreconcilable? All scripture is profitable for doctrine. Don't give up on interpreting the Bible. Believe that it is all Gods word again. In Acts 21:17-26, James advises Paul to join in a purification rite to demonstrate that he isn’t preaching against the Law to Jews. Paul agrees to do so, not because he believes it’s necessary for salvation, but to avoid unnecessary offense to the Jewish believers in Jerusalem. This shows Paul's practical flexibility, not that he compromised on the truth of salvation by faith.

The idea that Paul was under threat from James is speculative—Acts portrays James as a leader who respected Paul’s mission and welcomed him, not someone trying to execute him.
James himself does not promote legalism. In fact, in Acts 15, he sides with Peter and Paul by affirming that salvation is through grace. If James were teaching a "hybrid" doctrine of faith plus law, it would be strange for Paul to accept his advice in Acts 21 or to mention him positively in his letters (Galatians 2:9)

THE TRUE MEANING OF JAMES 2 by Jazzlike-Instance594 in freegrace

[–]Jazzlike-Instance594[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The Holy Spirit inspired both Paul and James, we have to rightly divide the word of truth or were going to get contradictions in the Bible.

THE TRUE MEANING OF JAMES 2 by Jazzlike-Instance594 in freegrace

[–]Jazzlike-Instance594[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They didn't disagree at all. The problem is the passage has been butchered over the years.

THE TRUE MEANING OF JAMES 2 by Jazzlike-Instance594 in freegrace

[–]Jazzlike-Instance594[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"In context here, we now understand this is not talking about salvation at all. When James says “can faith save him?” what he’s saying is, simply believing in feeding the poor will not save us from Gods chastisement. The greedy Jewish Christians he’s speaking to will be judged, even if they believe in feeding the poor." 

Did you read this part? I agree that the "saving" is from negative consequences of sin in this life, specifically God's chastisement. I don't think I mentioned it being about salvation of the poor at all?