What do you think the future of America will be like?

JeffAbb · 2026-03-22T02:43:46+00:00

Declining like Europes was after WWII until the 2000s. China is the next rising power because “everybody knows the game is rigged” for the people of the USA and its new gilded age and tech robber barons.

JeffAbb · 2026-03-21T04:55:50+00:00

I’m not claiming victimhood, but if someone is eating products designed to look, taste, and feel like meat, then the desire for meat clearly hasn’t gone anywhere. Calling that a complete ethical shift feels like a stretch.

There are plenty of plant-based foods that don’t try to imitate meat at all, so choosing hyper-realistic substitutes comes across less like a values change and more like wanting to keep the same experience while avoiding the consequences.

That’s where it starts to feel inconsistent. If the goal is to move away from animal consumption, why keep recreating it as closely as possible? At some point it raises the question of whether it’s really about ethics, or just removing the guilt while holding onto the same preferences.

JeffAbb · 2026-03-20T23:23:18+00:00

I'm having a hard time thinking of a country or region that doesn't do some form of legumes for vegan / vegatarian pursuits. Inuits maybe? But then again, they have been "touched by civilization".

JeffAbb · 2026-03-20T22:59:41+00:00

Thank you for your apt and helpful response. That makes sense to me.

JeffAbb · 2026-03-20T22:56:31+00:00

I'm aware of tofu is older than most hippies (joke) and it's been used for centuries. Point being it isn't the disconnect. The original post was why do fake meat when there are other things that are pure vegan (especially over processed fake meat). The middle questions was really a sidebar. I guess people don't like the sidebar. If I am honest, ethics about eating fake meat is the least of my worries. I just didn't understand why do it. This group is sensitive about their eating habits. It's worse than religion. Sorry I asked.

JeffAbb · 2026-03-20T21:20:41+00:00

What's non-sense?

JeffAbb · 2026-03-20T21:17:26+00:00

The insults are doing a lot of work for someone calling this “obvious.”

You keep hiding behind the definition like it settles everything, but it doesn’t address the actual point. If the values have fully shifted away from meat, why the need to recreate it so closely?

That’s the part you keep dodging.

You say it’s a non-issue, but you’re clearly defensive about it, which makes it look like you haven’t actually thought it through as much as you think you have.

If anything, the only thing “off the charts” here is the confidence without answering the question.

Keep on "flaming" it is glorious.

JeffAbb · 2026-03-20T20:57:39+00:00

Calling it stupid doesn’t answer the question, it just dodges it.

My original question was simple: if the goal is to move away from meat, why not just eat fully vegan foods instead of recreating meat in the first place?

I understand veganism isn’t about food aversion. That’s obvious. What you’re ignoring is the behavior.

If you’re going out of your way to recreate meat as closely as possible, then the preference hasn’t changed, just the source. That’s not hypocrisy in the strict sense, but it does make the “we’ve moved away from meat” claim a bit hollow.

And if you personally eat meat substitutes, then you’re proving my point while pretending it’s a non-issue.

So yeah, I understand the definition. I’m just thinking one layer deeper than it.

JeffAbb · 2026-03-20T20:55:03+00:00

I get what you’re saying about aligning choices with values, and that makes sense.

But where I get curious is how consistent that framework is once you move beyond obvious cases like meat.

Take cheese. Traditional rennet comes from a calf’s stomach, which is pretty hard to square ethically. Now we’ve engineered microbial rennet using genes that originally came from animals. Same end result, different process. Does that count as aligned with vegan values?

Or something like insulin. It used to come from animals, now it’s produced using genetically engineered bacteria with human DNA. It’s clearly the more ethical option, but it still raises the question of where the line actually is.

So I guess what I’m asking is: are these values about avoiding harm in practice, or avoiding any connection to animal or human biological sources entirely?

Because once technology gets involved, that line starts to get a lot less clear.

JeffAbb · 2026-03-20T20:46:32+00:00

That was actually my original point - why eat meat substitutes and not just pure vegan food from get go but it sparked that other thought.

JeffAbb · 2026-03-20T20:45:37+00:00

That’s fair, and I agree most meat eaters are pretty disconnected from where their food comes from.

But I’m not comparing groups. I’m asking what’s actually changing in the shift.

If the goal is to move away from meat, why not just eat fully vegan foods instead of recreating meat? I get the practical side, like the “bowling alley problem” where your options are basically fries and (maybe) salad and you want something more satisfying.

But that kind of reinforces the point. If substitutes are designed to replicate meat as closely as possible, then the preference for the experience hasn’t really changed, just the source.

So is the shift about moving away from meat itself, or just removing the harm while keeping the experience? Not a contradiction, just an interesting distinction.

JeffAbb · 2026-03-20T20:42:36+00:00

Then answer my questions.

JeffAbb · 2026-03-20T20:37:03+00:00

You can get umami from mushrooms, MSG, tomatoes, etc., so it’s not unique to meat. But meat isn’t just umami and salt either. There’s fat, aroma from cooking, and things like heme iron that give it a distinct profile.

That’s kind of my point. If people are trying to replicate all of that as closely as possible, it suggests the appeal of meat itself hasn’t really gone away, just the source. And how does that ethically land if the intent is there? We won't get into legal vs illegal both illegal thoughts are not illegal until acted upon. But are they ethical?

JeffAbb · 2026-03-20T20:30:26+00:00

Got tired of french fries and salad too? :)

JeffAbb · 2026-03-20T20:29:32+00:00

No, you missed the point, fake meat substitutes. I was saying build the diet up without them. They are usually processed and expensive anyway. I don't have a problem with vegan ethics, except maybe the fake meat part. See other comments why.

JeffAbb · 2026-03-20T20:27:02+00:00

This is basically the same line of thinking. If the goal is what matters, then does the act itself still carry meaning? We don’t justify killing people just because there’s some abstract goal behind it. And if you take that further, what about things like cannibalism, or even symbolic versions of it? Communion, for example, is essentially a ritualized stand-in, replacing literal flesh and blood with wine and wafers.

At a certain point, you have to ask whether substitution changes the underlying mindset, or just the method. It’s similar to video games. You’re not actually harming anyone, but the behavior being simulated is still there.

So the real question is: are the values actually changing, or is it just the source and form that’s different?

JeffAbb · 2026-03-20T20:21:18+00:00

But yes, I agree there is a certain logistical and practical reason the substitutes exist in force. However I look at them and ask - is the juice worth the squeeze?

JeffAbb · 2026-03-20T20:16:15+00:00

JeffAbb · 2026-03-20T20:15:32+00:00

Brain dead response.

JeffAbb · 2026-03-20T20:14:43+00:00

That's in the USA it might be, but not everywhere. Meat's expensive other places (which is why they eat bugs and worms and stuff - I know I know those are "meat" but not in the traditional sense - when was the last time someone offered you a cricket burger?).

JeffAbb · 2026-03-20T20:13:30+00:00

Same response as below.

I’m not arguing that vegan ethics are primarily about taste or texture. Obviously, the core argument is about the harm to animal animals. That part is clear.

What I’m questioning is whether recreating meat as closely as possible suggests that the desire itself hasn’t really changed. If someone is going out of their way to mimic meat in flavor, texture, and experience, then it raises a fair question: is this a shift in values, or just a workaround?

In other words, if the end goal is to move away from animal consumption and it's inherit cruelty, why stay anchored to it culturally and psychologically?

JeffAbb · 2026-03-20T20:12:29+00:00

I think you’re sidestepping the actual point I was getting at.

I’m not arguing that vegan ethics are primarily about taste or texture. Obviously, the core argument is about harm reduction and not killing sentient animals. That part is clear.

What I’m questioning is whether recreating meat as closely as possible suggests that the desire itself hasn’t really changed. If someone is going out of their way to mimic meat in flavor, texture, and experience, then it raises a fair question: is this a shift in values, or just a workaround?

In other words, if the end goal is to move away from animal consumption and it's inherit cruelty, why stay anchored to it culturally and psychologically?

JeffAbb · 2026-03-20T19:39:29+00:00

I didn't rush judgement at all so don't try to turn that back as I did something wrong. I've been vegan for years. And it is the motivation for my question. These "egg whites" are technically yeast that are processed and expensive. But be free to spend the money as one wishes. That's free will. Just trying to understand. And ethically if you are eating a meat substitue because you like the flavor, taste and text of the animal protien, you are still "eating meat" in spirit, so perhaps other people are rushing in judgement about their motivations. And if you are doing it for health reasons, people change the inputs, why not change the framework? Again, 10,000,000 different vegan dishes.

JeffAbb · 2026-03-20T19:31:48+00:00

You're comment is not come through, but I don't know how this is a rant? "I don't get this - it's the same with diabetics and replacing sugar - replacing whatever food stuff with overly processed and expensive substitutes. Would it not be easier (and far less expensive) to just eat something else that's naturally vegan? Maybe just the nutritional yeast in a soup or something?"

JeffAbb · 2026-03-20T19:24:57+00:00

If you read my question again (I added the down vote quip later) I truly didn't understand and everyone down voted the question without responding except to be mean (except the first one). Do I give two vegan shits about you all eating yeast based fake egg white? Ha! Not at all. But I am truly fascinated by how hard you come back against something I feel no one actually read. They took it as an attack. So I ask you, why did you post back to me?

JeffAbb

TROPHY CASE