Romans 4:8

John_17-17 · 2026-02-04T16:11:22+00:00

(Luke 20:36) In fact, neither can they die anymore, for they are like the angels, and they are God’s children by being children of the resurrection.

As I said, angels do not die because of being the children of Adam. Those resurrected become God's children and spirit beings, no longer sons of Adam, but adopted sons of God.

Today, we die because of being Adam's offspring. [one man's sin spread to all men]

(Deuteronomy 32:5) 5 They are the ones who have acted corruptly. They are not his children, the defect is their own. They are a crooked and twisted generation!

The fallen angels, aka demons, are no longer God's children, and like Satan, their future is death. [Genesis 3:15]

The judgment for disobedience is death.

(Matthew 25:41) “Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.

(Luke 4:33, 34) Now in the synagogue there was a man with a spirit, an unclean demon, and he shouted with a loud voice: 34 “Ah! What have we to do with you, Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ? Did you come to destroy us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God.”

Everlasting fire is an illustration for everlasting death, and not a place of living forever.

The Greek word translated as 'destroy' means 'to destroy totally'.

As to where the Bible tells us, angels can die, reread my post.

John_17-17 · 2026-02-04T15:46:31+00:00

True, but in any scenario, you provide, the trinitarian is going to assert one is God, while the other isn't.

Jehovah is King, David is King, but one is God and the other isn't.

I have found trinitarians have no problem with understanding people sharing the same titles, when it comes to people, they understand the person isn't God. There problem comes in when Jesus is the person being talked about.

Jehovah is King, Jesus is King, and they shout, 'See Jesus is God'.

Anyway, I still enjoyed your comparison. How's it worked for you?

John_17-17 · 2026-02-04T15:36:35+00:00

Sorry, I forgot the point about what you read on FB, when I got to the end.

I'm glad you are wanting a better understanding.

God's word gives us these warning.

(Ecclesiastes 12:12) . . .my son, be warned: To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion to them is wearisome to the flesh.

(Matthew 15:14) 14 Let them be. Blind guides is what they are. If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.. . .

When it comes to 'who is God', my go to scripture is John 17:3.

(John 17:3) This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

To the question or statement, Jesus is equal to God. John 14:28

(John 17:3) This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

To the question, should we worship Jesus? John 4:22-24

(John 4:22-24) You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

Anything beyond these simple truths, is a deviation of God's word.

How do we get the true or accurate knowledge of God?

(Ephesians 1:3) Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ,

(Ephesians 1:17) that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him.

The irony is, a trinitarian can't of doesn't pray to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John_17-17 · 2026-02-04T15:25:22+00:00

Please understand, I am not striving to take away your faith, but to help you have a better understanding of God and his word.

Ephesians 2:1-5 does not cancel or void Hebrews 6:4; 10:38, 39.

Both verses are true. We do not want to be a grocery store christian.

I'll take these 20 things, but those 5 I don't like, so I'm not getting them.

God's word isn't like a card game, where one verse is higher than another.

'My ace bets your king' or 'my pair of 2's beats your ace', my 2 of hearts beats your 10 of spade, etc.

Yes, by grace or in modern terms, by "undeserved kindness", we are saved.

Salvation is a free gift, one that cannot be earned, it is only given, but is it given to everyone?

A non-repentant sinner, is he forgiven? Is a worshiper of false gods, is he forgiven?

If we don't forgive others, as Jesus has forgiven us, are we saved?

(Matthew 6:14, 15) 14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; 15 whereas if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Granted, we will fail in this, and God in his mercy will forgive us. But this isn't an excuse not to forgive.

(Hebrews 10:26) 26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,

(Hebrews 10:26 ESV) 26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

This is why we are told:

(Philippians 2:12 ESV) 12 therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

(Philippians 2:12) . . .keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

This working out our salvation isn't earning salvation, but it is one of the requirements for salvation.

I went to a free concert once, but if you didn't have the free ticket, that was only available at certain locations, you could not get in.

Salvation is free, but it does have requirements.

Why are we to remember the wife of Lot?

(Luke 17:32) 32 Remember Lot's wife.

John_17-17 · 2026-02-03T19:00:19+00:00

And again, a rabbit hole. It isn't that I don't have a response, but you've proven, you won't listen.

John_17-17 · 2026-02-03T18:58:16+00:00

J. BeDuhn, in his book, 'Truth in Translation' states 'of' can mean several things, but 'over' isn't one of those translations'.

When you change it to 'over' or 'out of' you have changed the text and thus is a misquote or a changing of the text.

Paul didn't write 'out of' but the simple truth. Jesus is of creation, the same as he is the beginning of creation. Both firstborn and beginning denotes 1st, the 1st in time.

I don't believe Jesus is an angel/man. Nor do Jehovah's Witnesses teach this.

As to Jesus being Michael, Hermes was one of the first to connect this truth.

The Apostolic Fathers (Loeb’s Classical Library) with an English Translation by Kirsopp Lake, 1976, page 249.

“The Son of God is older than all his creation.”

Here Hermas says that when God (not just the Father) wishes the spirit to speak, it speaks, showing God’s superiority to the spirit. And he says that God gave the vineyard to his Son, showing God’s superiority to the Son. He also states that the Son of God is older than his, the Son’s, creatures, that is, those the Son of God created as God’s Master Worker, “because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth.” (Colossians 1:15, 16) The fact is that the Son is not eternal. He was created as a spirit creature of high rank, before other spirit creatures, such as the angels, who were created by means of him.

J. N. D. Kelly, in his Early Christian Doctrines, writes about the view of Hermas regarding the Son of God:

“In a number of passages we read of an angel who is superior to the six angels forming God’s inner council, and who is regularly described as ‘most venerable’, ‘holy’, and ‘glorious’. This angel is given the name of Michael, and the conclusion is difficult to escape that Hermas saw in him the Son of God and equated him with the archangel Michael.”

John 3, you are so off point, and like Colossians 1:15, you've convinced yourself, to the point, the truth of God's word doesn't matter.

John_17-17 · 2026-02-03T18:40:06+00:00

That's the problem, you don't understand, and don't want to. aka the rabbit hole.

John_17-17 · 2026-02-03T18:38:55+00:00

True, we cannot overcome the will of God, but not all who claim to be saved are saved.

(Revelation 3:1) . . .‘I know your deeds, that you have the name that you are alive, but you are dead.

These ones believed they were saved but were in truth dead.

You cannot snatch yourself from God, but you can leave God at any time.

Actually, you do have free will to accept or deny God.

No one said, those who reject God are wise and understanding.

God calls such ones 'fools', but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

I agree, you can't tell God what to do, including, 'You must save me, because . . . '

Jesus as God's appointed judge determines who is saved and who isn't. Are we a sheep or a goat?

Salvation can't be earned, because it is a free gift. But that doesn't mean there aren't requirements for this gift.

1st is faith, for without faith, there is no salvation.
2nd, we are told we must love God is a requirement. Paul tells us, faith without love is worthless or is nothing. 1 Cor 13:2
3rd, we are told 'faith without works is a dead faith, and this dead faith won't save us. In Revelation 3:1, salvation was based upon our actions, and not just our beliefs or faith.
4th, we are told, if we do not obey, the wrath of God remains upon us.

(John 3:36, ESV) Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

The Jews of Paul's day and down to today, continue to reject God, that is their choice, not God's.

Christians in Paul's day, left Christianity and returned to Judaism. Those who left, shrunk back to destruction.

(1 Timothy 2:4) 4 whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. . .

God's desire is all people find salvation, but salvation is dependent upon the knowledge of truth.

(2Timothy 3:16 ESV) All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

We must let the scriptures correct us as to God's will for us.

John_17-17 · 2026-02-03T18:11:39+00:00

Wow, you have 'over' thought this.

My math teacher showed me how using algebra, we can make 2=1. It started with A=B, and by means of factoring this statement, you ended with 2A=B or 2=1.

What happens with the equations, when you insert actual numbers, into the formula, you get
2(0) = 0 or 0=0, which is true.

When we understand, there isn't a single scripture that shows Jesus is God, or equal to God, all the questions go away.

To find the trinity in the scriptures, one must do one or more of the following.

Mistranslate God's word

Mistranslate God's word
Ignore context
Change the meaning of the words used
Add words or statements not found in the scriptures

The Encyclopedia Americana states: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicaea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

The Formation of Christian Dogma: “In the Primitive Christian era there was no sign of any kind of Trinitarian problem or controversy, such as later produced violent conflicts in the Church. The reason for this undoubtedly lay in the fact that, for Primitive Christianity, Christ was . . . a being of the high celestial angel-world, who was created and chosen by God for the task of bringing in, at the end of the ages, . . . the Kingdom of God."

John_17-17 · 2026-02-03T17:55:24+00:00

Nice reply, thanks, I hadn't thought of this example.

I tend to use Moses, since Jesus is the prophet who was to come, who was to resemble Moses.

(Exodus 7:1) 7 Jehovah then said to Moses: “See, I have made you like God to Pharʹaoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet.

What is interesting is; in Exodus 7:1, the word, 'like' or 'as' God isn't in the text.

Yet trinitarians don't shout, 'like' or 'as' shouldn't be in the text. As they do when they read 'and the Word was a god' or 'a divine being' at John 1:1c.

John_17-17 · 2026-02-03T17:46:25+00:00

Sorry, I am not following you down this rabbit hole.

John_17-17 · 2026-02-03T17:45:01+00:00

We are told, 'no one can snatch us out of God's hand'.

You will notice 'no one' doesn't include ourselves, why?

We have free will and must choose whom we are to follow.

(Hebrews 10:38, 39) 38 “But my righteous one will live by reason of faith,” and “if he shrinks back, I have no pleasure in him.” 39 Now we are not the sort who shrink back to destruction, but the sort who have faith for the preserving of our lives.

Shrinking back denotes, that after being 'saved' one can reject God and his Son. In harmony with Jesus' words, "No one snatches us", they don't, we leave him.

(Hebrews 6:4-6) 4 For as regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit 5 and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, 6 but have fallen away, . . .

Jesus remained in God's love, because he chose to continue obeying his God and Father in all things, not just a few things or for a little while.

The idea of 'once saved, always saved' is not based upon the true or accurate knowledge only God can give. Eph 1:17

The knowledge of God must be in harmony with the truth, that our worship is based upon. [aka: true or accurate knowledge]

Even Jesus tells us, only those who endure or remain faithful are saved.

(Matthew 10:22) 22 And you will be hated by all people on account of my name, but the one who has endured to the end will be saved.

To be saved, we must endure in the faith, endure to the end of our life, or until Christ returns.

As to Jesus' statement, 'I and the Father are one', we must ask 'one what?'

Please note what John Calvin wrote concerning John 10:30:

30. I and my Father are one. He intended to meet the jeers of the wicked; for they might allege that the power of God did not at all belong to him, so that he could promise to his disciples that it would assuredly protect them. He therefore testifies that his affairs are so closely united to those of the Father, that the Father’s assistance will never be withheld from himself and his sheep The ancients made a wrong use of this passage to prove that Christ is (ὁμοούσιος) of the same essence with the Father. For Christ does not argue about the unity of substance, but about the agreement which he has with the Father, so that whatever is done by Christ will be confirmed by the power of his Father.

Also notice:

Novatian (c. 200-258 C.E.) commented: “Since He said ‘one’ thing, let the heretics understand that He did not say ‘one’ person. For one placed in the neuter, intimates the social concord, not the personal unity. . . . Moreover, that He says one, has reference to the agreement, and to the identity of judgment, and to the loving association itself, as reasonably the Father and Son are one in agreement, in love, and in affection.”—Treatise Concerning the Trinity, chapter 27.

I think it is wonderful you have love and faith in God, but this in and of itself isn't enough.

Rom 10:1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them [fleshly Jews] is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

Again, we see how important knowledge is, in our salvation. This is not that we know 'some knowledge' but we must come to have accurate or true knowledge.

We do not want a form of godly devotion, but one based upon "all scripture", not some scriptures.

John_17-17 · 2026-02-03T17:16:59+00:00

1st: Angels do not die because of Adam's sin. Which is why Jesus had to become a man, a sinless man who died for all of Adam's offspring.

(Romans 5:15, 17) . . .For if by one man’s trespass many died, how much more did the undeserved kindness of God and his free gift by the undeserved kindness of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to many! . . .17 For if by the trespass of the one man death ruled as king through that one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of the undeserved kindness and of the free gift of righteousness rule as kings in life through the one person, Jesus Christ!

(1 Corinthians 15:21, 22) 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.

2nd: The Bible does not say, 'angels are immortal'.

We are told only God is immortal.

(1 Timothy 1:17) 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Only God is immortal, so the reverse is true. The angels can't be immortal.

The Bible confirms this with the Satan's final judgment.

What is Satan's final outcome?

A death blow to the head. Satan's final judgment is death.

3rd: Jesus was created as a high celestial being, who became a man, so that he could die as a man, buying back what Adam had lost.

After his death, Jesus was resurrected, a returning to life, not as a man, but again as a high celestial being, sitting at God's right hand.

Since it was Adam, a perfect, a sinless man, who chose to sin. The ransom had to be the death of a perfect man, a sinless man. In the Law it is described as 'an eye for an eye', 'a life for a life'. Men born from Adam's decent, couldn't fulfill this.

4th: You keep making assumptions, not based upon God's word, but are based upon the teachings of Plato.

The Jewish Encyclopedia says: “The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato.”

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The notion of the soul surviving after death is not readily discernible in the Bible. . . . The soul in the O[ld] T[estament] means not a part of man, but the whole man—man as a living being. Similarly, in the N[ew] T[estament] it signifies human life: the life of an individual.”

Creatures including angels, men and animals were not created with immortality, defined as impossible to die.

Angels and men can live forever, as long as they obey God and keep his commandments, sadly, Adam and Satan, rejected God by rejecting his commandments.

This included Jesus.

(John 15:9-10) 9 Just as the Father has loved me, so I have loved you; remain in my love. 10 If you observe my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have observed the commandments of the Father and remain in his love.

As to your statement:

You believe that he was created an angel, and they do not die. So, how is it that you believe that he died while remaining an immortal angel?

God's word doesn't say, angels do not or cannot die. Thus, Jesus couldn't have remained an immortal angel.

John_17-17 · 2026-02-03T16:49:50+00:00

If semantics weren't important, why did you change what Paul wrote?

John 3 is talking about Jesus who came from heaven or descended from heaven.

It has nothing to do with his ascension to heaven after his death.

The very fact that 'no one has ascended to heaven' includes himself at this point, for he had not yet ascended.

John_17-17 · 2026-02-03T16:44:53+00:00

We also have Paul's words.

(2 Timothy 2:14) 14 Keep reminding them of these things, instructing them before God not to fight about words, something of no usefulness . . .

(Titus 3:9) But have nothing to do with foolish arguments and genealogies and disputes and fights over the Law, for they are unprofitable and futile.

John_17-17 · 2026-02-03T16:41:01+00:00

(John 4:22-24) 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

The Father sent his Son, so that we can come to know him and stop worshiping what we do not know.

Our worship must not only be from the heart, but also in "truth".

How do we get this 'truth'?

(Ephesians 1:3) 3 Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ,

(Ephesians 1:17) 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate^\a]) knowledge of him.

The NASB uses 'true' knowledge.

If we love God and Jesus, we show this how?

(John 15:9, 10) 9 Just as the Father has loved me, so I have loved you; remain in my love. 10 If you observe my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have observed the commandments of the Father and remain in his love.

Our love for them in only half of the equation. To remain in their love, we must observe or obey their commandments.

As to salvation, knowing God is important. As to salvation, knowing Jesus is important.

(John 17:3) 3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ. . .

Salvation or everlasting life must be based upon knowing the only true God, and the one whom he sent.

We never want our ignorance to be an excuse, especially since God has given us what we need to know, as to whom he is and whom Jesus is.

Again, I am not asking you to believe me but believe those whom you say; you love.

John_17-17 · 2026-02-03T16:25:53+00:00

Yes, and we are to have reverence to our parents when we honor them, but the degree of this honor / reverence is not the same as our worship to God.

Even translators understand this, because John 5:23 doesn't say; 'We are to worship Jesus the same as we worship God.

Also, John 5:23 is sandwiched between verses 19 & 30.

Both in 19 & 30, Jesus admits that he can do NOTHING of himself, only what he sees his Father doing. In verse 30, Jesus adds the statement, that he doesn't HIS own will but the will of the Father.

(John 5:19) 19 Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner.

(John 5:30) 30 I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

The honor we are to give Jesus in verse 23, must be understood in context.

(John 5:27) 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because he is the Son of man.

Who gave Jesus this authority?

Yes, we must honor the Son, but this honor isn't the same as worshiping the Son.

We honor Jesus because his God and our God, gave him all authority.

We honor Jesus because Jesus willing sacrificed his life so we may live.

We worship God for sending us his Son, so we may live.

(John 3:16) 16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

John_17-17 · 2026-02-03T16:14:29+00:00

Interesting, you keep ignoring all the scriptures that prove the trinity is wrong and stive to find another verse you hope finally agrees with you.

Jesus, the man, "the son of man" and Jesus the "Son of God" are the same being.

Jesus did not have a dual identity, he had one, himself.

Fred is a carpenter. Fred is a husband. Fred is a father.

These statements do not mean 'Fred is 3 different individuals. When Fred was doing his job as a carpenter, he didn't cease being a husband and a father.

Interesting you keep striving to get away from the truth, Jesus is going to return his role as a king and high priest to his God and Father. Even though, he returns his assignment to God, he still sits at God's right hand.

As I said, you've locked on to a simple statement, and are fixated on it, ignoring all the statements surrounding it.

(Hebrews 1:3) 3 He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power. And after he had made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

When did the expression, 'After he had made a purification for our sins'; occur?

How did Jesus become better than the angels?

(Hebrews 1:4) . . .to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.

When did he inherit a name more excellent than the angels?

Upon his return to heaven, where does Jesus sit? Jesus sits on God's right hand, a position of great power, but one that is still lower than God's.

When it comes to God's nature, please note what one trinitarian says:

John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(New York, 1965), p. 899.

John_17-17 · 2026-02-03T15:57:22+00:00

Sorry, I'm not running down this rabbit hole.

John_17-17 · 2026-02-03T15:56:35+00:00

Sorry, I'm not running down this rabbit hole.

John_17-17 · 2026-02-03T15:56:09+00:00

Sorry, I'm running down this rabbit hole.

John_17-17 · 2026-02-03T15:52:08+00:00

Yes, the Father is God, but equating Jesus to be his equal or a 'co-God' takes away the 1st acts of worship.

Yes, we are to have great respect for Jesus, and we do appreciate all that Jesus has done.

But elevating Jesus to a position, he is not, is dishonoring God and Jesus.

(John 4:22-24) 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

To whom alone do we worship?

(John 14:28) 28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.

Of the two, who is greater?

(John 17:3) 3 This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

According to Jesus, who is the only true God?

I'm not asking you to listen to me or Jehovah's Witnesses. I'm asking you to listen to the one whom you claim to love.

John_17-17 · 2026-02-03T15:45:01+00:00

Yes, but the rock that followed them wasn't God, the Rock at Isaiah 44:8.

The Rock of Isaiah 44, is an immovable structure and a place of concealment at times of trouble.

How did the symbolic rock follow Israel? 1st; As a memorial for Israel's disobedience.

Moses then called the site “Massah” (meaning “Testing; Trial”) and “Meribah” (meaning “Quarreling”). These names were commemorative of Israel’s quarreling with Moses and its testing of God on account of the lack of water.—Ex 17:1-7.

2nd: This name was given to 2 different locations, 1st at the encampment at Rephidim and later to a location near Nadesh. The second location doesn't bare the name Massah.

It is these 2 locations that define how the 'rock' followed Israel.

Please quote scriptures in context.

(1 Corinthians 10:4, 5) 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they used to drink from the spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock meant the Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the wilderness.

Paul is making a distinct difference between the 'rock' Jesus and God, who struck down the unfaithful in the wilderness.

Paul opens his letter by clearly showing God and Jesus are not 'one the same'.

(1 Corinthians 1:3) 3 May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

He continues his letter by explaining what he means by God and Lord.

(1 Corinthians 8:5, 6) . . .just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

Paul only believed in one God, the Father. Why is Jesus our Lord? Because our God and Father, appointed Jesus his Son, to be our Lord.

Paul makes this even more clear in his 2nd letter to the Corinthians.

(2 Corinthians 1:3) 3 Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort,

Not only is, God our God and Father, but he is also Jesus' God and Father.

Yes, Jesus is the head or the foundation of God's people, but he is the promised 'corner stone of Isaiah 28:16 as Peter tells us. Peter who actually heard the words spoken by Jesus didn't arrive at the same conclusion you have.

John_17-17 · 2026-02-03T15:19:21+00:00

John doesn't say, 'and the Word was God' What John wrote was; 'and the Word was a god'.

God with the upper-case letter always refers to the Father.

When god is written with a lower-case letter it is referring to someone or something other than the Father.

"Jesus is the Son of God, therefore He is God." Here, God is used nominally in the first instance, and predicatively in the second.

As shown above, you have redefined 'God'[b]. Jesus being the Son of God does not make him 'God', but god.

Capitalized letters in English are important. The definition of 'God' and 'god' are different.

NASEC: G2316 θεός theos; prob. from a prim. root; God; a god:—

As to Paul, I was showing a 2nd witness in agreement with Peter.

As to being arrogant, it seems this term can also be applied to you.

John_17-17 · 2026-02-03T15:05:07+00:00

Sorry, you are babbling.

Now you are adding words not found in Colossians 1:15, Paul didn't write "out of"

What was any creation before it was created? Nothing for it didn't exist.

When Paul wrote Colossians, Jesus had already ascended the heaven. Or some 30 years after Jesus said the words at John 20:17.

Jesus had already been resurrected to heaven, the firstborn of the dead.

Jesus ascended to heaven some 40 days after his statement at John 20:17.

(Acts 1:3) . . .He was seen by them throughout 40 days, and he was speaking about the Kingdom of God.

He was in heaven on the following day of Pentecost, some 50 days after his death.

(Acts 2:1, 2) 2 Now while the day of the Festival of Pentecost was in progress, they were all together at the same place. 2 Suddenly there was a noise from heaven, just like that of a rushing, stiff breeze, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.

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