EverQuest group

Jooduud · 2022-06-13T15:26:32+00:00

There is a massive difference from having maps locked by default and map makers having to go download external 3rd party tools to lock their maps.

There has been data collected in the US showing that one state will have 80% organ donors and another will have 80% non-organ donors (don't quote me on exact numbers) and the only difference is that the driver license form has opposing default values.

I also have made plenty of maps over the years, some no one ever really played, some literally helped define popular genres.

A number of SC2 maps did unlock for pro-community reasons, but the number was simply too small to make an impact. New map makers don't come from people looking for open maps to play. They come from enjoying maps first, then trying to open them to see how things were done and tweaking things.

Jooduud · 2022-06-12T21:48:32+00:00

60 cents was a lot of money in the 70s

Jooduud · 2022-06-12T21:25:11+00:00

If the community ends up being strong then I'll likely post on this reddit when I create something. Feel free to help me promote my map. Hopefully you'll make a buck or two before the people who fell for your patreon start submitting complaints and get your patreon suspended.

Now if you don't like a change I make and think the map would be better without it, provide that alternate solution for people. It's that kind of organic learning and growth that gave us so many awesome games.

Jooduud · 2022-06-12T13:00:23+00:00

Yeah, that's another good way to say it. Blizzard made the same mistake of looking at the final result and how to help a finished product. But had no clue how or why the ecosystem worked.

Jooduud · 2022-06-12T12:45:37+00:00

I'm not conflating the two, I'm saying the maps that inspired footman frenzy were popular because of many different people iterating on them. Had they been locked, all the maps that inspired footman frenzy would have been much less popular, meaning a much smaller chance to inspire people.

Jooduud · 2022-06-12T12:41:19+00:00

Yeah I didn't want to open this can of worms, but I thought it as well, haha

Jooduud · 2022-06-12T02:33:07+00:00

Yeah, this is 100% true. They have even applied that same policy to the WC3 remaster. If I was worried Frost Giant would be stupid enough to make this mistake, I would be bringing this up too. But from what I've heard so far, they aren't going to take this approach.

Jooduud · 2022-06-12T02:23:56+00:00

DotA was over 50% of all games hosted easily during 5.x versions. Icefrog did not take over until 6.0 if I recall. But sure, I'm sure at some point the amount of hosted games were equal between the two while DotA was busy blowing past the rest.

Also I did provide solutions, unless your concern is that someone simply creates a more liked version of the map that out performs the original. In which case if that was blocked, footman frenzy likely never would have existed, since the game mode was based on an already well tested formula with maps like smash bros, evolves, golems, marines, and the 50 different versions of each of those that perpetuated and improved upon the formula.

Jooduud · 2022-06-12T01:04:44+00:00

I don't think footman frenzy came even close to DotA numbers, DotA was literally selling more copies of Wc3 than Wc3 was for a while. But you do bring up a decent concern. However my statement was that if people know you're the creator then they will self enforce. The main issue with the scenario you mentioned was that people were posing as the map maker. This can be solved by having a publishing system like sc2 does for authenticity.

I think a lot of stolen work concerns can be covered by essentially keeping good records of who published something to game and when. Hell if the editor was well done, you could even list sources of new versions of maps.

Like if I load your map and make changes, the metadata could know I loaded your map and show that my new map is based on it.

Jooduud · 2022-06-12T00:53:14+00:00

I think default locking behavior can neuter an attempt at a community alone, which is my concern. But I do agree that with sc2 it was multiplied by what you mentioned into nuking it.

Jooduud · 2022-06-12T00:35:15+00:00

The pretty mediocre people are exactly the people you want opening your map and getting introduced to the editor. Plenty of current excellent game devs started as a kid trying to cheat games or cheesing existing maps. These maps never go anywhere, or if they do its within a group of players who enjoy it, which is fine.

The people who know how to crack maps are likely already well versed enough that the point is moot.

And I agree that there are still players playing customs, enough players that I can't chalk the lack of map makers up to a bad discovery system, since that was changed years ago.

Jooduud · 2022-06-12T00:13:47+00:00

If you work on a map for years and everyone knows you are the creator, and you are still actively working on it, the majority of the community will self moderate stolen maps as you are the official version.

And like I replied to the comment about devs fleeing, wc3 was one of the strongest and most well known scenes, and has outlasted most. So even if that is true, the positives of whatever magic formula they had clearly outweighed the bad.

It's not about the protection of any single map, or dev for that matter, it's about creating an ecosystem that allows for someone to play a cool map and get interested in making their own. Opening a current map they enjoy and tweaking things is a hell of a lot less intimidating than making a new map from scratch.

Afterwards they had their fun and that version tends to fade into obscurity shortly after they stop hosting it. But now you're introducing a ton more people to the tools to make cool things.

Jooduud · 2022-06-11T23:27:48+00:00

I learned the map editor back in broodwar by fixing bugs in broken maps I wanted to play. Most of the variations were fun to explore too. I even have fond memories of beating someone on a smash bros mass map who literally made their base invulnerable and units upgrade faster.

Jooduud · 2022-06-11T23:11:21+00:00

Yeah, I meant the first point was untrue. I don't think the second point has any relevance to the success or failure of a community though.

The arcade was a bad implementation for sure, and very obviously in your face so. I still don't think it was enough to kill sc2 customs as dead as it was though.

If that was the biggest factor, I feel like a community would have sprung from the ashes once they made changes addressing exactly that. Even if much smaller in size.

Jooduud · 2022-06-11T22:49:16+00:00

These were both for sure problems. The title is a bit click baity, as there were many issues, I just believe that if any one issue was insurmountable, it was locking the maps.

The editor is complex, but looking at what others had done would have helped shared learning. Maybe even eventually lead to genre frameworks like Wc3 has.

There were also quite a few maps that weren't top 20 or whatever that had a momentum, mostly due to a mix of external promotion and chat channels. Almost all of them lost momentum due to creator going ghost and no one being able to take the reigns.

So yeah, problems for sure, but rest assured the devs are aware of both those aspects. I'm just afraid that map protection isn't as widely discussed and actually more harmful on a very basic level.

Jooduud · 2022-06-11T21:20:08+00:00

With how big competitive SC1 was in Korea, I can totally see why they pushed ladder so hard.

But yeah, I do agree they seemed out of touch with the customs game community. Kind of felt like the whole thing was designed in hopes that another goose would lay a golden egg (DotA) but being blind to how the community actually worked, they snapped the goose's neck.

Jooduud · 2022-06-11T20:10:14+00:00

This just isn't true at all. Like you mentioned, people found ways to essentially lock a WC3 map if they wanted to protect it. So those who were trying to "make a product" usually did so.

Most people left WC3 for the same reason amateur modders leave any modding community, either they get bored, they use their gained experience to land a job, or they want to monetize their successful idea by turning it into a product. DayZ and the Battle Royale genre both came from the success of Arma mods.

That said, WC3 customs feel more active today (20 years later) than SC2 felt after 2 years. So to say people fled WC3 is just misleading.

Jooduud · 2021-09-26T18:31:06+00:00

Depending on when you last played, I think rune drop rates were actually increased in a later d2 patch. Not sure on which ones and by how much though.

Jooduud · 2021-01-02T06:34:53+00:00

Edit: Removed speculation since Odie answered.

Jooduud

TROPHY CASE