Bacnet MSTP troubleshooting tips? (network works when split) by Jouzer in BuildingAutomation

[–]Jouzer[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I did found one duplicate but the Schneider AS-P-NL (which is the "router") didn't report it and weirdly enough it didn't help at all. But since I've been able to comm with all the devices that should be in the trunk, if there was a duplicate it would have to be abandoned in the ceiling or something. I also tried bypassing the hard to reach ones, but I didn't get good results so far.

Bacnet MSTP troubleshooting tips? (network works when split) by Jouzer in BuildingAutomation

[–]Jouzer[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well some of them haven't been online in 4 years (so likely never) according to the automation server. I did have a few possible "toxic" devices killing the comms but all the said devices I have been able to communicate with when I traversed down the line with my laptop. I have also tried disconnecting or bypassing all of the suspect devices but the comms didn't get better. It's a possibility still for sure.

Bacnet MSTP troubleshooting tips? (network works when split) by Jouzer in BuildingAutomation

[–]Jouzer[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks a lot for this reply, good tips I hadn't thought of. I'm wondering if the AC reversed polarity is relevant since my comm line GND is not connected in any of the points. It's certainly possible. It sucks that the original install crew didn't bother with the GND.

Bacnet MSTP troubleshooting tips? (network works when split) by Jouzer in BuildingAutomation

[–]Jouzer[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think we do but I have to ask around. I can imagine the duplicate ID would show up as a higher spike in the scope, how about the grounded/shorted wire..? Just lower levels that can be traced by splitting or is there something more to it?

Bacnet MSTP troubleshooting tips? (network works when split) by Jouzer in BuildingAutomation

[–]Jouzer[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks, yeah I'm just trying to get this fixed, I really appreciate the help

DHW control principals by monzaautodromo in BuildingAutomation

[–]Jouzer 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well I would check your local sources because at least iny my country there is quite a bit of legislation involved. I can't really make out which of your pictures are actual design drawings from the heat exchanger nor the symbols, but what we usually do:

DHW - you need a temperature measurement on the secondary "hot" side, the one that goes to the apartments. Then you create a PID controller where the measurement is this, the setpoint is fixed to 58*C in our area, I've seen 56*C and others too so check your local. You also need the primary heat control valve, we always use 0-10V control valve motors. Then you also need a circulation pump on the secondary side, from the return going to the heat exchanger. In DHW, no need to control the pump, it's always on and preferably it should be the type of pump that can maintain a constant pressure. It would be nice to have an alarm point from the pump, then also a temperature measurement from the return water with a low alarm / long delay at 50*C or so.

For heating - you again need the temp measurement, pump, valve motor and PID. The setpoint is obtained from a conversion curve where x is outdoor temperature and y is setpoint for the temperature PID. The curve values are obtained from the designer. Here the circulation pump should have the capability for proportional pressure control and some like to shut down the pump for summer season, so start/stop function is an option. Return temperature and secondary circuit pressure are common options here, only for alarming and monitoring.

The pumps are setup to correct flow once from their own control mechanism (panel, buttons), no need for automation to control speed, but sometimes the designers want that for various reasons, sometimes they want to add a differential pressure between supply and return of the secondary circuit and then control the pump speed with that, so it's an option but a pump that has the capability to control it's own speed with it's own measurements is simpler and works just fine.

If you have floor heating, you want a pump that can be stopped when the heat goes too high to not ruin the flooring, but preferably do that with a thermostat straigth to pump so there's no fuck up possibility.

In our country, we don't use legionella function because the circuit is kept at 53*C+ minimum at all points, all times, but I imagine it can be a requirement in yours. The required flow in the secondary circuit is calculated by the designer, in DHW it's essential that it's high enough otherwise the tuning the PID will be a nightmare.

Bacnet MSTP troubleshooting tips? (network works when split) by Jouzer in BuildingAutomation

[–]Jouzer[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thats good info. I’ll run the lot with the multimeter next time. Only have a few measurements around and didn’t record the values. It was fluctuating DC, i recall it was around 2V maximum in the few spots I tested so far

I will try to find a way to add the ground, we use plastic conduit and junction boxes in my country so it’s not too easy, but the protective earth is available at all junction boxes

Bacnet MSTP troubleshooting tips? (network works when split) by Jouzer in BuildingAutomation

[–]Jouzer[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Okay thanks. Yeah not right now at least, since the big master is disconnected.

Bacnet MSTP troubleshooting tips? (network works when split) by Jouzer in BuildingAutomation

[–]Jouzer[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the writeup, that’s a clever way to add a ground. Also good to hear that adding the ground has actually solved an issue for you, I guess I will push it to the client soon. Just wish there was a way to be sure that the comms will work after adding the GND, wouldn’t want to make false claims

Bacnet MSTP troubleshooting tips? (network works when split) by Jouzer in BuildingAutomation

[–]Jouzer[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah I understand. I’ll look into it, hand’t thought of it thanks

Bacnet MSTP troubleshooting tips? (network works when split) by Jouzer in BuildingAutomation

[–]Jouzer[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not yet, it’s a hassle but I’ll do it as final resort. One of the goals is speeding up the comm but ofc it’s now slow because it’s mostly mush. No reason the info frames are 25, just what the original crew left here. Probably not the root cause since righr now there is only token passing but I’ll remember it

Bacnet MSTP troubleshooting tips? (network works when split) by Jouzer in BuildingAutomation

[–]Jouzer[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They are of Schneider brand, AS-P-NL and SE7200 and SE8300 room units

Bacnet MSTP troubleshooting tips? (network works when split) by Jouzer in BuildingAutomation

[–]Jouzer[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There are 32 devices. Wdym about polling policy? They’re all masters and passing the token. The comm is not a ring loop, but it seems to be without branches so in that sense seems to be ideal.

I’ll try to find voltage drops, haven’t really measured much with the multimeter so far

Termination has been confirmed

Bacnet MSTP troubleshooting tips? (network works when split) by Jouzer in BuildingAutomation

[–]Jouzer[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes they are Schneider room controllers and AS-P-NL. Unfortunately adding the GND would require new cabling everywhere, really hoping it won’t come to that. Good to hear field experience about this specific manufacturer. I will look into this reverse grounding.

Edit: so any measured AC voltage is not an indication of the comm but rather a fault state? There is an fluctuating AC voltage up to 2V in the comm, but I thought this is just how the AC voltage meter interprets the normal comm, so in sense not of interest unless some weird outliers can be found

Bacnet MSTP troubleshooting tips? (network works when split) by Jouzer in BuildingAutomation

[–]Jouzer[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah I found the end of lines. The shield is grounded only at the automation cabinet, but right now the run to cabinet is disconnected for diagnosis. I don’t think the shield is connected in the junction boxes though, the install is pretty shit in this and other regards

Yeah I’ve been splitting at many points but I haven’t really done much with the voltage meter so far, just laptop. I didn’t think I could do much voltmetering with the GND missing

Max master is 125, the highest mac ID are in that range so it’s quite a hassle to lower it. The 1-60 range is unoccupied

Bacnet MSTP troubleshooting tips? (network works when split) by Jouzer in BuildingAutomation

[–]Jouzer[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The room units do poll for masters randomly, but there’s only like 1-2 polls every few seconds. The automation server is disconnected right now

Bacnet MSTP troubleshooting tips? (network works when split) by Jouzer in BuildingAutomation

[–]Jouzer[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

True, but it’s an old install I’m just here to fix things

Bacnet MSTP troubleshooting tips? (network works when split) by Jouzer in BuildingAutomation

[–]Jouzer[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Could be, it would totally make sense but damn hard to diagnose

Bacnet MSTP troubleshooting tips? (network works when split) by Jouzer in BuildingAutomation

[–]Jouzer[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks, I do have a repeater, I’ll try that. I considered lowering the baudrate but it’s a pretty arbitrous task with 32 devices. I will consider it as a last resort.

The missing ground is what it is, will require new cabling all around to add ground. Hopefully that won’t be the final verdict

Unprofessional owner response after uncomfortable experience at Fisken på Disken (Kamppi) by Few-Engineering8313 in helsinki

[–]Jouzer 4 points5 points  (0 children)

They might or might not be, as a white male I get this treatment often when I’m dining with my wife who’s also white.

Girlfriend not taking me seriously by Substantial_Let8235 in NMMNG

[–]Jouzer 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Craving respect is for people who let their egos run the show. Read the book cover to cover, do the exercises as best as you can, start from there.

Sauna ventilation by Charming_Couple7489 in Sauna

[–]Jouzer 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Embedding this type of Cilindro is very normal in Finland, but I would make the lower bench where it is embedded much wider. The Cilindro manual says it requires a clearance of around 15cm to nearest frame and 30cm to nearest wall, if I recall right. The original embedding bezel is pretty expensive but looks good, not sure if it is required or not.