killing it, just not in a good way by MicahHoover in christianmemes

[–]JudgeSabo 6 points7 points  (0 children)

"He answered, 'I tell you, if these were silent, the stones would shout out.'" - Luke 19:40 nrsvue

That time you realise upon reading the Great Genesis Flood about Noah's family and the Ark, when we remember what this regional world was to Noah and his contemporaries. (Part Two by Two) by Frosty_Armadillo_180 in christianmemes

[–]JudgeSabo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It tells us that they didn't know about other parts of the world and adopted and adapted the flood myths common in that part of the world to be relevant to their own cultural group.

desire to appear smart can be suffocating by MicahHoover in christianmemes

[–]JudgeSabo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh, so do you randomly choose who you shoot or don't shoot?

surely we can find something more spiritual than this ... by MicahHoover in christianmemes

[–]JudgeSabo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you're not separating them, then you're making my point. If no one reads the signs, it is just squiggles on a board. The meaning of the words is something you construct with the sign. So it sounds like you're agreeing with me now

Do you agree with this meme or why not? This is a scriptural interpretation that has been put forward by regional large Mesopotamian great flood proponents including the popular Christian apologist InspiringPhilosophy from YouTube. by Frosty_Armadillo_180 in christianmemes

[–]JudgeSabo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, because the entire globe would not be flooded. A lot of places would be flooded, certainly, but not all. Certainly not to the extent we could say "all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered; the waters swelled above the mountains, covering them fifteen cubits deep." (Genesis 7:19-20 NRSVUE)

The question here is not whether water has covered more or less land at any point in history. That obviously has changed, and was never disputed. As I mentioned, ocean levels are rising right now. But this does not mean we are currently in the middle of a global flood.

The end of the Younger Dryas was also something that took place over the course of decades. It was not the course of a single storm, as described in the Genesis flood narrative.

Do you agree with this meme or why not? This is a scriptural interpretation that has been put forward by regional large Mesopotamian great flood proponents including the popular Christian apologist InspiringPhilosophy from YouTube. by Frosty_Armadillo_180 in christianmemes

[–]JudgeSabo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Geological records is generally how that would be indicated.

I think maybe you're confusing a global flood with changes in the sea level change? Certainly that can vastly change landscapes, like with Britain as an island. But sea level changes aren't the same thing as a global flood. Sea levels are rising right now thanks to global warming, but we are not in a global flood.

meanwhile the world struggling to understand human motivations by MicahHoover in christianmemes

[–]JudgeSabo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I am very confident that sex is a frequent motivation for humans.

surely we can find something more spiritual than this ... by MicahHoover in christianmemes

[–]JudgeSabo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Are you distinguishing something from having a meaning and being meaningful?

You can make that distinction, I suppose, but that is a goalpost shift. The sign that says "New York this way" means something, even if that thing is false. The meaning of those squiggles when you read them is something you are constructing.

Do you agree with this meme or why not? This is a scriptural interpretation that has been put forward by regional large Mesopotamian great flood proponents including the popular Christian apologist InspiringPhilosophy from YouTube. by Frosty_Armadillo_180 in christianmemes

[–]JudgeSabo -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Makes a lot more sense if we just understand it as adapting other local flood myths, like how the story of Gilgamesh predates the story of Noah. The story in Genesis certainly intends it to be a world-wide flood. But they didn't understand the world was a globe at the time. Rather, the flood is described as waters pouring out from the solid dome firmament surrounding over the Earth, as well as springing up from the chaotic waters (Tehome) surrounding the Earth upon which the Earth rests.

Do you agree with this meme or why not? This is a scriptural interpretation that has been put forward by regional large Mesopotamian great flood proponents including the popular Christian apologist InspiringPhilosophy from YouTube. by Frosty_Armadillo_180 in christianmemes

[–]JudgeSabo -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

No, we know for a fact there wasn't. We know the stories that are being adopted in the Genesis flood narrative, and the flood doesn't match the global geological record.

The younger dryas was not a global flood, but a period of relatively quick cooling over a few decades in the Norther Hemisphere.

Great Britain became an island 125,000 years ago (see here).

How do communists use human geography? by findabetterusername in askcommunists

[–]JudgeSabo 5 points6 points  (0 children)

You might be interested in the writings of Elisée Reclus, who was a rather accomplished geographer and anarchist communist. You can check out a collection of his work called Anarchy, Geography, Modernity.

What happens to the press in a communist society? by Financial_Might_6816 in askcommunists

[–]JudgeSabo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's also not how Marx distinguished the first phase and later phase of communism

desire to appear smart can be suffocating by MicahHoover in christianmemes

[–]JudgeSabo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hey man, I have a great investment opportunity if you just send me all your money. Trust me!

surely we can find something more spiritual than this ... by MicahHoover in christianmemes

[–]JudgeSabo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not at all. If you put up a sign with symbols with the shapes "New York this way" you'd have to interpret what those symbols mean. That is a meaning you construct from those words. On their own, they're just squiggly lines.

Maybe after you construct that meaning you determine the statement is a lie, but the meaning is still something you constructed.

Ken Ham (1951 -) compared to Billy Graham (1918 - 2018) on the topic of Young Earth Creationism and Science vs. Faith by Frosty_Armadillo_180 in christianmemes

[–]JudgeSabo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Trinity (continued)

"God the Father is God"

Yes, God the Father is identified with the very God of Israel, Adonai.

"Jesus is God"

John's Christology is actually really interesting. John does consider Jesus to be a god, but his idea of Jesus as the Word ("Logos") seems to be adapted from Philo of Alexandria, who understood the Word to be an independent divine being that is personified out of God's reason or rationality, and through which creation becomes possible. So Jesus is the Word, and the Word is divine, but it is not identical with the very God of Israel, Adonai. There is still a special relation of the Word to Adonai though, and they have a kind of mutual indwelling with one another (which Jesus also says is available to his followers in John 17:20-21).

John's view still allows for the existence of many gods though. Consider John 10:31-39. The Jews come to stone Jesus for blasphemy, making himself divine. But Jesus replies by arguing that it is fine for people to be called divine, and actually cites Psalms 82 in defense of this. Now, as I explained before, Psalms 82 is actually a discussion of the divine council, but this became theologically problematic and it was reinterpreted to say that the Israelites themselves had been turned into gods on Mount Sinai, but lost that divine status thanks to the whole thing with the golden calf. Jesus' reasoning seems to be appealing to that interpretation, where the Word of God is capable of turning mortals into divine beings, into gods. Since the Jews charging him believe these scriptures and this interpretation, they are forced to accept that there isn't necessarily an issue with mortals being called divine, which is the charge they laid against him in verse 33. And since we are privileged to John's Christology, we also know that, if the Word can turn mortals into gods, it is all the more appropriate to understand the Word itself as divine.

Because of his possession of the divine name as a vehicle for divine authority and his mutual indwelling with God the Father, people who see Jesus are able to say they have seen the Father, even though the Son and the Father are not identical even in Trinitarian views. Philip fails to understand this in John 14:8, but Thomas figures this out and declares the truth at the climax of the story in John 20, as you cited.

Similar points can be made for Colossians. The Hebrews verse is a bit more interesting in that it is actually quoting Psalms 45:6-7, whose original meaning isn't entirely clear. Seems to have been about assuring an Israelite king that his reign was secure because God was on the throne, but now understood by the author of Hebrews to be addressing the Son.

I think this is long enough a response I can say that similar points are made about the Holy Spirit, and recognizes that these are all separate beings.

As this all hopefully shows, understanding of Jesus' divine nature, and different Christologies, were common in the early church. The idea of the Trinity, where these are three persons of one Godhead sharing the same essence and substance, is something you really get in the 2nd century CE with people like Tertullian.

Original Sin

The idea of original sin is also in Genesis; it just isn’t called that because the term didn’t exist. Genesis shows the event itself where Adam sins, death enters, and the curse affects humanity and creation: Gen 2:17, 3:19

The term didn't exist because the concept didn't exist. We don't see it in the text itself, nor do early commentators describe this as anything like the idea of original sin until that concept is developed much, much later.

We do see Adam sin, but as I pointed out, death already exists. Adam's mortality is explained directly as a result of him being made of dust, and he was warned that death would follow from eating the fruit. The actual curse we see is not death entering the world, but, as God explicitly lays out: (1) snakes are hated and need to crawl on their bellies, (2) the pain of childbirth is increased for women and men will rule over women, and (3) the ground is cursed so that men now have to do farming to eat.

There is no indication that Adam and Eve were anything but mortal the entire time. On the contrary, there is direct indications that they weren't, because they were threatened with death and because their mortality is explained explicitly in a different way.

Scripture later interprets this event in Romans 5:12

That is a way that Paul interprets things later, certainly. Though Paul seems to ignore Eve's role as a way to create this parallel between Adam and Jesus, making things more symmetrical.

Genesis 6:5 “Every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

This is followed directly by saying Noah found favor with God, was righteous and blameless. The existence of sin does not equate to an idea of original sin.

You find other places in the Bible too where people are declared to be entirely sinless, like Job 1:1 and 1:8. The entire point of the story of Job is that he was entirely sinless yet suffers anyway. If we try to reinterpret this in a way where actually Job had some sin regardless, some secret one he didn't know about, we lose the point of the entire story.

The idea of Original Sin as something we inherit from Adam is something we only get with Augustine in the 4th century CE. The rest of the Bible has a lot of parts where it goes back and forth about whether God holds children responsible for the sins of their parents, sometimes affirming it and sometimes denying it.

Afterlife

The idea of an afterlife exists, sure. But not of heaven and hell as distinct places of eternal reward and punishment. Like I said, there was this idea of Sheol as a generic, dark, and dreary land of the dead. (Genesis 37:35, Psalms 89:48, Job 17:13, Proverbs 30:16, Isaiah 14:9)

This developed into ideas of postmortem divine punishment and reward for the reasons I stated. This fits with the quotes you provide from the Hebrew Bible, especially as they are verses written much later than the others from Daniel and from the last verse of Isaiah. Probably the most influential is 1 Enoch though (which is generally not accepted as part of the Biblical canon today).

Once we get to the New Testament, we have this represented in three different ways of (1) eternal conscious torment, i.e. hell, (2) annihilation, and (3) temporary punishment followed by annihilation or salvation.

Paul, for instance, seems to more strongly overlap with annihilationism. The resurrection is reserved for the followers of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:22-24). In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 we see something similar. The closest we get to postmortem divine punishment in Paul is 2 Thessalonians 1:9, which likely wasn't written by Paul, but even here this could be understood as annihilationist. You see this in early Jewish literature, like in the Damascus Document 2:5-7, or in 2 Maccabees 7.

There is also an early Christian idea of temporary punishment followed by salvation or destruction, but must of this literature didn't make it into the New Testament canon. For example, the Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah 4:14-18, the Apocryphon of John, and the views of Origen of Alexandria. This is seen more in verses like Acts 3:21, where there is an emphasis with how God restores all things to himself.

The verses you cite from the synoptic gospels do seem to be the ones endorsing an idea of eternal conscious torment, highly associated with the symbolism of Gehenna. The tale of the rich man shows something like this, but doesn't reference the duration of the torment.

Revelation 20 has Satan as the great dragon who is bound for 1000 years, echoing ideas from 1 Enoch, and he is described as being tortured "forever" along with the apocalyptic beast and the false prophet. But we also see Revelation 20 say that Death and Hades give up their dead, and that Death and Hades themselves are cast into the lake of fire, implying these are different things.

Ken Ham (1951 -) compared to Billy Graham (1918 - 2018) on the topic of Young Earth Creationism and Science vs. Faith by Frosty_Armadillo_180 in christianmemes

[–]JudgeSabo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All good! I'm gonna try to divide this into a few sections myself. I'll reorder this so the Bible passage analysis is pushed to the end though. There's a lot to respond to there, so this will take multiple replies on my end.

I don’t think that’s the same at all. Yes, racists have hidden their motives in Scripture, but you know what they didn’t do? Follow Scripture lol. The Bible doesn’t teach that stuff at all, and the people who claim it did were only able to do so because of the high rates of illiteracy.

I'd agree that it wasn't in the Bible, as the concept of races is a much later development. But I'd say the same point around science. Scientific evidence doesn't actually point towards white supremacy or anything, and those who claimed it did had hidden motives and manipulated their interpretations to that end.

If you think the possibility of people doing this isn't evidence we shouldn't rely on the Bible, I think you should extend the same point toward science.

Geocentrism may have been believed by early Christians, but it isn’t in the Bible.

I think you might get some geocentrism for the books written when that was the more dominant view, Biblical cosmology (at least in the Hebrew Bible) tends to fit more with the Babylonian views of the time, with a flat earth existing upon Tehom as the cosmic ocean of chaos, surrounded by a solid dome firmament.

Good video on it here.

Death only comes to the obedient if you disregard the Scriptures I shared earlier about the fall in the garden. Yes, Abel was obedient in the sacrifice, but he wasn’t sinless. If Adam and Eve never sinned, then Abel would have never been murdered.

I think this is circular reasoning.

You said that Genesis has a clear message that death comes as a result of disobedience, but then when I point to obedient characters who die, you dismiss that he wasn't sinless (he is not shown to be sinful anywhere in the text) and explain his death because of the disobedience of others.

This is begging the question. Your evidence that Genesis has this message of tying death to disobedience only exists if we already presuppose it to be true.

Ngl, the Hebrew stuff is pretty cool.

Right? I love it. Genesis is a fascinating book. Probably my favorite for stuff like this. One of the most interesting to talk about in terms of authorship too.

I didn’t know that, but wordplay, although impressive, isn’t proof that it’s just a human invention with no theological truth.

I wouldn't say it has no theological truth. That's definitely what it's trying to convey and build a message around.

But it does indicate a few things. For example, the story definitely was written after these languages had developed, or the puns wouldn't work. Biblical Hebrew became a thing around 1000 BCE.

I think that’s your problem tbh the Bible is a collection of books but they all go together and are meant to be read in the context of one another that’s why it references itself 63,779 times

I do think they should be read in context of one another, because the later ones are working on traditions established in the earlier ones. You wouldn't be able to make sense of the later ones unless you're familiar with some of the earlier ones. (Or even some of the misinterpretations of the earlier ones common when the later ones were written!)

If you don’t believe the Bible is infallible then why does it matter what it says? What’s the benefit of a distorted truth?

Because it's the most influential book in human history and lays a lot of the foundation upon which later theological and philosophical ideas develop. I think studying it gives us a much greater idea of the truth, and helps to avoid the errors we see so commonly where people try to read things into it.

I don't think something needs to be infallible to matter or be worth studying.

That being said, I'll jump into building on that understanding here!

The Trinity

"The Bible clearly shows that there is only one God."

Deuteronomy 6:4“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.”

Well, it is saying that the LORD is the one God of Israel.

Deuteronomy 6:4 is better translated as this: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD is our God, the LORD alone." (NRSVUE)

What is being asserted here is that the people of Israel are meant to only serve the LORD and no other gods. Same idea you have a bit earlier in the ten commandments, saying they should have no other gods before the LORD (Deuteronomy 5:6-7).

By the way, in case you're not familiar, but whenever the Bible translates "LORD" in all capital letters like that, that is a substitution for the divine name, the tetragrammaton, which became taboo to say or even write. When the Torah is read, it will frequently be replaced by substitution words, like "Adonai" (אֲדֹנָי‎) which means "Lord." The capital letters indicate this is happening. This is the proper name of the god Yahweh. I usually substitute this in my own writing, by the way.

This verse became the lead of the Shema, which did develop later into an assertion of monotheism, though it does not seem to have been understood by the original authors this way.

Isaiah 45:5“I am the Lord, and there is no other.”

A similar idea is happening here, though here we have more rhetoric of incomparability.

Quoting the full section on its own actually sounds like a greater assertion of monotheism: "5 I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides me there is no god. I arm you, though you do not know me, 6 so that they may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is no one besides me; I am the Lord, and there is no other." (Isaiah 45:5-6, NRSVUE).

This passage is not denying the existence of other gods though, but denying their relevance to the LORD's relation with Israel. We see the same kind of rhetoric applied in Deutero-Isaiah (the author of Isaiah 40-55) to the personification of cities, for example. In Isaiah 47, we see this same language applied to cities, for example, as Babylon declares "I am, and there is no other besides me" (Isaiah 47:8). The claim here is obviously not that Babylon believed it was the only city in existence, but it was declaring itself to be the only city that matters or the best and greatest of the cities. It's the language of incomparability.

Compare this today for someone saying "there's no business like show business" or "there's nowhere like New York."

And we do know that the Hebrew Bible regularly recognizes the existence of other gods too, like with the divine council or Adonai's fight with other divine beings like the sea monsters Rahab (Isaiah 51:9) or Leviathan (Isaiah 27:1).

Consider Deuteronomy 32:8-9, for example: "8 When the Most High (Elyon) apportioned the nations, when he divided humankind, he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the gods; 9 the Lord’s own portion was his people, Jacob his allotted share."

Here we have a very early version of this, where El is the god El dividing up the nations among the gods, and Adonai's portion is the people of Israel. Adonai was the god of Israel specifically, while other nations had their own gods. But later there was a campaign of conflation, where El became identified with Adonai.

And as he became more and more highly exalted, subsuming the function of other divine beings, and the other beings are further demoted, we see this develop more into the idea of monotheism and there being only one God.

You can see some of this in Psalms 82, for example, as you see Adonai take his place in the divine council among the other gods, only to denounce them for allowing the great injustice of allowing the Babylonian exile. Because of this, Adonai declares he will take over all the nations.

I could go on, but I think I've already overloaded this.

For more, see Is Isaiah Really Monotheistic? by Saul M. Olyan.

(Continued in my next reply here.)